The Trinity?

[Dr. Waite]

John317:

Why did the author use the words "godhead bodily"?

Could he have meant the following?

Quote:

Of the Godhead - Of the Divinity, the divine nature - θεότης theotēs. The word is one that properly denotes the divine nature and perfections. Robinson, Lexicon. It occurs nowhere else in the New Testament.

Bodily - σωματικῶς sōmatikōs. This word also is found nowhere else in the New Testament, though the adjective bodily - σωματικὸς sōmatikos - occurs twice; Luke 3:22, "in a bodily shape;" and 1 Timothy 4:8, "for bodily exercise profiteth little." The word means, "having a bodily appearance, instead of existing or appearing in a spiritual form;" and the fair sense of the phrase is, that the fullness of the divine nature became incarnate, and was indwelling in the body of the Redeemer. It does not meet the case to say, as Crellius does, that the "whole divine will was in him," for the word θεότη theotē - "godhead" - does not mean the will of God; and it is as certainly true that the inspired prophets were under the control of the divine will, as that the Saviour was. Nor can it mean, as Socinus supposes, that the fulness of divine knowledge dwelt in him, for this is not the proper meaning of the word (θεότης theotēs) "godhead;" nor can it mean, for the same reason, that a fullness of divine gifts was intrusted to him. See http://www.godvine.com/bible/Colossians/2-9

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Christ existed as the Son of God before the incarnation:

Of course. Christ is the eternal, self-existent, omnipotent Son of God.

He has ALWAYS stood at the right hand of the Father. See PP 38.

But when He became a man, Christ became the Son of God in a new sense. As a man, Jesus of Nazareth had a beginning, and He was literally the Son of God, God being His literal Father.

Was Jesus Christ literally the Son of God, God being His literal Father, before the incarnation?

[John317]

John317:

Why did the author use the words "godhead bodily"?

It means the entire fullness of Deity was living in Christ's body.

[John317]

Was Jesus Christ literally the Son of God, God being His literal Father, before the incarnation?

No, not literally. The pre-incarnate Christ did not have a beginning. The Word of God that is referred to in John 1: 1 always existed. He wasn't a literal "son" and the Father was not literally His daddy until Christ was conceived in Mary's womb. That is why Ellen White says God became the Son of God in a new sense when He was born as a human baby.

The "Son of God" has reference to the order of Christ's being, or essence-- that He was God essentially and in the highest sense. He was always the perfect reflection and representation of the Father's glory, and their relationship was similar to the loving relationship between human fathers and sons.

[John317]

Trinity was introduced by the early apostate church and most all of Chistendom now has taken it up. Much effort has been made to modify it to be close to what it should be but is still not the truth of it.

It truly is a sad and strong deception!

If a person is really reading and understanding what is being posted here, he will see that the concept of the Trinity is indeed found in the Bible and in the SOP.

[Gibs]

No it is no, emphatically no. Trinity of what? God is one and there is only one!

You people make of the ways Yah comes to us a trinity. There is no trinity about it. He comes to us by Spirit as that is what He is and then by His Son the Word. Now it is by the printed Word and by His Spirit.

The ways He comes to us is of the one and only God there is, Yahweh.

The printed Word is Spiritually discerned and only by His Spirit can it be rightly seen and understood.

John declares to us that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are one, yes the one and only true God, there is none other. His name transliterated is Yahweh or Yah.

Where is a trinity, Yah the Father is Spirit and He is the one in the Word, before Bethlehem the Word was the extension of Himself to be His Redeemer and made then to be our Redeemer in becoming one of us at Bethlehem.

3 persons in the Godhead? I only see one of God and then when come in the Man Jesus, the man of couse is a person, mysteriouly made a union with the Deity of the Father projected for our Redeemer.

There does come a time that no Redeemer is ever to be needed and the Father can be all in all again. The Father has no need further to be extended for any any more. 1 Cor 15:24-28.

Those verses are a very profound read.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

John, here is the case of our Redeemer,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

There was a time that the Father had not extended himself and above you read of it.

Yes of course then He too is exacty as the Father and it pleased the Fathe that in Him His fulness would dwell. Yes of course then He too is preexistant. We see Him we've seen the Father, they are one and is a projection of Himself to be the go between, Mediator, connection between guilty man and Heaven. Yet fully Himself manifest in the flesh at Bethlehem.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

No it is no, emphatically no. Trinity of what? God is one and there is only one!

Father, Son, & Holy Spirit! This has been answered many times!!!

One God expressing Himself in 3 persons? Gibs, I already mentioned that modalism was condemned as heresy way back in the 2nd or 3rd century.

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God."

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 6. 1980 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (1075). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

-The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God (MS 92, 1901)

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Counsels on Health. 1923 (222). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (616). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (616). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gibs]

That is not a trinity Gerry, I've stated that all along, that God comes to us as Spirit as that is what He is and In His and our Redeemer. We would not live in His direct Presence.

There is no trinity about that. There is just one involved.

And EGW was not a trinitarian. She didn't teach it. She taught that Jesus and the Father are of one substance. The church did not bring trinity in till long after her and the old true men were gone. L. Froom was the great apostate that brought it in and then the surrender to Barnhouse and Martin, that if they didn't hold trinity Adventism would be a cult.

There is no three persons in Yah the Father. One God and only one is all scripture will stand for. You cannot conjure up a trinity of any kind concerning God.

I've saw a lot of shifting on this subject in conference here on this forum.

There is no shifting on my part or the Word of God.

Jesus Christ was the Father with us as it is the Father that came in Him. Why? Because there is none other to be in Him! 2 Cor 5:19

The problem is the "dignitaries" EGW speaks of she never stated they are a trinity. Also they are one and same one, Yah, the King of Israel. Yah is in Christ, 2 Cor 5:19

He speaks to us by His Spirit and dwells in us by Spirit, Christ in you is the Father in you!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

Gerry:

Jesus Christ, the divine only begotten Son of the living God, taught that there is only one true God which is his Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Not a unity of three co-eternal persons. See John 17:3

Jesus Christ also taught us who we are to worship. See John 4:22-24:

"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth."

[John317]

John, here is the case of our Redeemer,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Being "possessed, "set up," and "brought forth" are not referring to the beginning of Christ's existence. All of those verses refer to Christ's being "set up," etc., as the Redeemer of the world.

In a figurative sense, they are talking about Wisdom. Wisdom is personified as a woman.

Was there a time when God did not have wisdom? If you take those verses literally, then there was a point when God had no wisdom.

[doug yowell]

Gerry:

Jesus Christ, the divine only begotten Son of the living God, taught that there is only one true God which is his Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Not a unity of three co-eternal persons. See John 17:3

Jesus considered Himself to be equal with God (Phil.2:5-8 John 20:28,29,ect... ect...)wouldn't that allow for at least two co-eternal persons?

[John317]

Ellen White states that Christ is the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.

...Is the Holy Spirit a "being" in the same sense as the Father and Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, are beings? If the Holy Spirit is such a "being", then he could not enter into all the purposes and counsels of God.

The following statement by Ellen White proves that she is not saying the Holy Spirit could not enter into the counsels and purposes of God:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. CH 222

Obviously the Holy Spirit-- the Third Person of the Godhead-- was able to join Christ in the counsels and purposes of God. Notice that in the above quote, Ellen White says that Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these "Three holiest beings of heaven" gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

If the Holy Spirit is not a Person, how could He be lied to? It's impossible to lie to a thing or to a power or influence.

One can lie on a form or in a letter or on a CV, admittedly, through them to a person. I said nothing about the Holy Spirit being a person or not. Neither, I believe, does the Bible.

One needs just one show-stopper or deal-breaker to completely derail an argument, concept, postulate, etc. Just showing that 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god is not possible, is enough. Further, Jesus saying the the Father is greater than him (Jesus) and Paul saying that in the end, not just while Jesus was on Earth, Jesus will be subjected to the Father, makes the equality thing untenable. That's enough on its own, superfluous when added to the other deal-breakers for the trinitarian concept. And there are many others, like a god having a god.

The distance between how the "support" for the trinitarian concept is written down in the Bible and the understanding of this "support," is immense. They turn out not to be real support for the trinitarian concept, but excuses for believing it.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Jesus Christ also taught us who we are to worship.

Jesus also said whom we should pray to: our Father who is in heaven...

But all this means nothing. Trinitarians either rationalize it away or completely ignore it. They will argue with Jesus himself on the subject of the trinity.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Jesus considered Himself to be equal with God (Phil.2:5-8 John 20:28,29,ect... ect...)

Quote:

NETfree: John Chapter 20

[28] Thomas replied to him, "My Lord and my God!"

[29] Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed."

Hallooo! Where does it say, "I am equal to God?" Neither Lord nor god (the translators put in the capital G) is here a proper noun.

Quote:

NETfree: Philippians Chapter 2

[5] You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had,

[6] who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

[7] but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.

[8] He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death - even death on a cross!

"Something to be grasped" or aspired to, like Satan did. This is unclear and can be understood in more than one way. If it's unclear the trinitarians will grasp at it and use it as an excuse for the trintiy.

Come on, bring us statements equally clear to the ones we use to sink the trinitarian concept.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

First, Matt 28: 19.

Are you seriously claiming that Matt 28: 19 has nothing to contribute toward an understanding of the Godhead?

Is that why some anti-Trinitarians deny its genuineness as a text of Scripture?

First of all, no one here asserts that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are "gods."

Secondly, the fact is that Matt 28: 19 shows us that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have a single NAME. What name would that be, do you think?

Quote:

NETfree: Matthew 28:19. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Just because "name" here is singular you want a trinity of gods? Come on, this quote is extremely far removed from establishing the trinitarian concept. And trinty, you know it comes from tres, the Latin for three. So, you have three gods, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Or are they individually only fractionally god, adding up to one full god? You're not going to be stumped by primary school math, are you?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Note it is the Father calling Christ God.

No, He is not. The capital G is courtesy of the translators. The word can be translated as lord, or a title. And no, the ho doesn't turn it into a proper noun.

[Enabled]

Good morning John

Sorry I didn't address this on Sabbath we travel to fellowship and never arrive home before late evening.

You said:

Quote:

The Bible says it was the Holy Spirit-- NOT Christ-- in the form of a dove.

I ask where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit (Ghost)the third person of the Godhead answered Christs prayer? I believe John that this is read into "the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove." We are clearly taught that the Holy Spirit is the omnipresence of Divinity as it is said also of Christ. If the Father had revealed himself in all his glory every one at the baptism would have perished. Instead he reveals himself in the light of "his glory" which Ellen White also taught elsewhere was the rob that was lost by our first parents the light of his presence. Just as the light that enshrouded our first parents revealed the indwelling spirits presence so the Dove revealed the presence of the Fathers spirit as the Father spoke of his son at the baptism, thus the emblem above his head identified Christ to the hearer as the one in whom dwelt the Father; all the fullness of the Godhead (Father) bodily. Indeed as you said John "the Character" of the Father in Christ was represented by this fit emblem and not the presence of another. This pleased the Father!

Next item You Posted:

Quote:

The Father Himself answered the petition of His Son. Direct from the throne issued the beams of His glory. The heavens were opened, and upon the Saviour's head descended a dove of burnished gold--fit emblem of Him, the meek and lowly One. A heavenly light encircled the Son of man; and from the highest heaven was heard the words, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Sermons and Talks, vol. 2, page 120

I respond with context that is clear:

Quote:

The Father Himself answered the petition of His Son. Direct from the throne issued the beams of His glory. The heavens were opened, and upon the Saviour's head descended a dove of burnished gold--fit emblem of Him, the meek and lowly One. A heavenly light encircled the Son of man; and from the highest heaven was heard the words, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." {2SAT 220.3}

This answer to Christ's prayer is to us a pledge that God will hear and answer our petitions. In His humanity Christ cleaved through Satan's hellish shadow and reached the throne of the Infinite. His prayer was heard by the Father. In like manner our prayers find acceptance in the courts of heaven. The voice that spoke to Jesus says to every believing soul, "This is My beloved child, in whom I am well pleased." {2SAT 220.4}

Quote:

"Never before had angels listened to such prayer as Christ offered at his baptism, and they were solicitous to be the bearers of the message from the Father to his Son. But no, direct from the Father issues the light of his glory. The heavens were opened, and beams of glory rested upon the Son of God, and assumed the form of a dove in appearance like burnished gold. The dove-like form was emblematic of the meekness and gentleness of Christ. Not withstanding the Son of God was clothed with humanity yet Jehovah with his own voice assures him of his sonship with the Eternal."

R.H. January 21, 1873.

No where John in the quote you provided or in the one I provided are we told that Christ in his prayer is answer by other than the Father, the beams of his glory (the Fathers glory) take the form of a Dove which is also emblematic of Christs Character and not another as clearly stated. Makes sense as he is a perfect representative of his Father which is the whole point of the revelation at the Baptism.

In the comments that you follow these with you mention the Godhead continually in the context of a group yet when reading the only three verses in the bible that use the word clearly depict the Father and not a group. I believe that The Father is the Godhead and all things proceed from him, his spirit, his son and all that he himself is come from the Father of lights.

In the following you say:

Quote:

The Bible says it was the Holy Spirit-- NOT Christ-- in the form of a dove. So you are misunderstanding Ellen White's statement. She is saying that the dove is a fitting representation of Christ's character, but she is not contradicting the Bible when it says that the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove.

Where does the bible say it was the Holy Spirit another person? She clearly says it was the "beams of his glory" the Fathers glory that came straight from Heaven in answer to his prayer!

Christ's prayers were always to his Father, why then would the "holy spirit" another person come to him in answer to a prayer to his Father unless the Holy Spirit was the presence of his Father's glory just as she says in both quotes. She clearly states "The Father Himself answered the petition of His Son." in the opening of the paragraph and not another.

I will not at this time address the balance of your response as I am familiar with all of the quotes you posted and find that your understanding of them clashes with the original context they were in and with dozens of other quotes where she clearly speaks to the contrary of the bent you and others such as Leroy Froom (editor of Evangelism) have placed on them. I will given time dig them up and post them here.You might note John in doing a search of the favoured quotes form EV that most are not found in any of her original works but are said to be from unreleased manuscripts. It would be really interesting to read the manuscripts in there fullness yet to date the White estate doesn't see fit to release them.

Thanks John for your time taken and your response.

By the way I am not anti-trinitarian yet I do not accept the creeds of Catholicism and most certainly not the tritheism of modern SDA isms. I believe that their is clearly one LORD God and one Lord Jesus Christ and they are both Holy and both Spirit yet visible beings in which we are made in the image and likeness of.

[Gibs]

The Holy Spirit is what God is, Jesus declares, and if anyone knows the truth He does. Is the Holy Spirit a person? Yes of course, the very person of God the Father.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Trinity was introduced by the early apostate church and most all of Chistendom now has taken it up. Much effort has been made to modify it to be close to what it should be but is still not the truth of it.

It truly is a sad and strong deception!

If a person is really reading and understanding what is being posted here, he will see that the concept of the Trinity is indeed found in the Bible and in the SOP.

In truth, Gibs, if I recall my history correctly - and here, I believe I do - the early church was not so apostate as you would have us believe.

However, Paul very clearly attributed many of the Old Testament actions of YHWH Elohim to the pre-Incarnation Word who became Christ. The Words of Christ Himself speaking of the father as Someone He was in glory with, was not lost upon the early church.

Christ came to sweep away the debris of human thought from on top of the Scriptures - and Deuteronomy 6:4 was one of those passages He came to clarify.

The early church had to contend with the "monotheism" of Mithraism, which contended the plural YHWH Elohim was false, then Gnosticism contended Jesus was but a mere created being. They contended against these all the while suffering increased persecution from the Roman government and the Jews (who did not accept Jesus as either "their" Messiah OR YHWH Elohim come into the flesh, as prophesied).

When the First Council of Nicea was convened, the church at Rome was hardly in a position to rule the affairs of Christendom. Having just come through the final 10 years of horrible bloodletting by Emperor Diocletian, the Church at Rome was largely re-learning what was happening elsewhere in Christendom by 325. The major centers of influence in Christendom were at Ephesus, Laodicea, Corinth, and Alexandria. Each had a belief in the Trinity, but spelled it out in different ways. However - all had battled Mithraism and Gnosticism, and by the time another anti-Trinitarian (Arius) came on the scene, these churches knew what they could NOT concede as true doctrine.

It was the anti-Trinitarian doctrine which "came into" the church so long ago, by three attempts from three sources: the pagan (Mithraism), the mystic (Gnosticism), and finally from within (Origen and Arius).

It was Origen who took the various hierarchies of misunderstandings about Christ's relationship to the Father, and set them down in such a way his colleague Arius could only conclude with the Gnostics that Jesus Christ was but a created being with no Deity substance of His own. This is the same Origen who brought in the error of the pre-existence of souls, the immortal soul doctrine, and other heretical doctrines.

Gibs, you have stated a few times you need not know about Arius and his teachings - all you needed was your understanding of the Bible. I say a person ignorant of history is doomed to repeat it.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Well Ted the early church didn't go apostate for around 300 yrs. and then Satan stole the march on her and she became very corrupt, Martyring millions.

Now all reformed denominational church structures are very corrupt in the teaching they do.

The SDA movement was the best and went the furthest in reform as it was given a messenger, prophet if you will of which it didn't care to heed well. Adventism was the last one to remain protestant, but now protestantism is dead in all denominations. It is declared, we are one! Yes in more ways than one.

By the way what is it you like or dislike about Arius?

You see there is a reason Satan wants people deceived as to who God is and He is an artful deceiver. I note this verse.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So now you see why there is only one to listen to to get the truth of the matter.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Good morning John

Sorry I didn't address this on Sabbath we travel to fellowship and never arrive home before late evening.

You said:

Quote:

The Bible says it was the Holy Spirit-- NOT Christ-- in the form of a dove.

I ask where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit (Ghost)the third person of the Godhead answered Christs prayer? I believe John that this is read into "the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove." We are clearly taught that the Holy Spirit is the omnipresence of Divinity as it is said also of Christ. If the Father had revealed himself in all his glory every one at the baptism would have perished. Instead he reveals himself in the light of "his glory" which Ellen White also taught elsewhere was the rob that was lost by our first parents the light of his presence. Just as the light that enshrouded our first parents revealed the indwelling spirits presence so the Dove revealed the presence of the Fathers spirit as the Father spoke of his son at the baptism, thus the emblem above his head identified Christ to the hearer as the one in whom dwelt the Father; all the fullness of the Godhead (Father) bodily. Indeed as you said John "the Character" of the Father in Christ was represented by this fit emblem and not the presence of another. This pleased the Father!

Next item You Posted:

Quote:

The Father Himself answered the petition of His Son. Direct from the throne issued the beams of His glory. The heavens were opened, and upon the Saviour's head descended a dove of burnished gold--fit emblem of Him, the meek and lowly One. A heavenly light encircled the Son of man; and from the highest heaven was heard the words, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Sermons and Talks, vol. 2, page 120

I respond with context that is clear:

Quote:

The Father Himself answered the petition of His Son. Direct from the throne issued the beams of His glory. The heavens were opened, and upon the Saviour's head descended a dove of burnished gold--fit emblem of Him, the meek and lowly One. A heavenly light encircled the Son of man; and from the highest heaven was heard the words, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." {2SAT 220.3}

This answer to Christ's prayer is to us a pledge that God will hear and answer our petitions. In His humanity Christ cleaved through Satan's hellish shadow and reached the throne of the Infinite. His prayer was heard by the Father. In like manner our prayers find acceptance in the courts of heaven. The voice that spoke to Jesus says to every believing soul, "This is My beloved child, in whom I am well pleased." {2SAT 220.4}

Quote:

"Never before had angels listened to such prayer as Christ offered at his baptism, and they were solicitous to be the bearers of the message from the Father to his Son. But no, direct from the Father issues the light of his glory. The heavens were opened, and beams of glory rested upon the Son of God, and assumed the form of a dove in appearance like burnished gold. The dove-like form was emblematic of the meekness and gentleness of Christ. Not withstanding the Son of God was clothed with humanity yet Jehovah with his own voice assures him of his sonship with the Eternal."

R.H. January 21, 1873.

No where John in the quote you provided or in the one I provided are we told that Christ in his prayer is answer by other than the Father, the beams of his glory (the Fathers glory) take the form of a Dove which is also emblematic of Christs Character and not another as clearly stated. Makes sense as he is a perfect representative of his Father which is the whole point of the revelation at the Baptism.

In the comments that you follow these with you mention the Godhead continually in the context of a group yet when reading the only three verses in the bible that use the word clearly depict the Father and not a group. I believe that The Father is the Godhead and all things proceed from him, his spirit, his son and all that he himself is come from the Father of lights.

In the following you say:

Quote:

The Bible says it was the Holy Spirit-- NOT Christ-- in the form of a dove. So you are misunderstanding Ellen White's statement. She is saying that the dove is a fitting representation of Christ's character, but she is not contradicting the Bible when it says that the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove.

Where does the bible say it was the Holy Spirit another person? She clearly says it was the "beams of his glory" the Fathers glory that came straight from Heaven in answer to his prayer!

Christ's prayers were always to his Father, why then would the "holy spirit" another person come to him in answer to a prayer to his Father unless the Holy Spirit was the presence of his Father's glory just as she says in both quotes. She clearly states "The Father Himself answered the petition of His Son." in the opening of the paragraph and not another.

I will not at this time address the balance of your response as I am familiar with all of the quotes you posted and find that your understanding of them clashes with the original context they were in and with dozens of other quotes where she clearly speaks to the contrary of the bent you and others such as Leroy Froom (editor of Evangelism) have placed on them. I will given time dig them up and post them here.You might note John in doing a search of the favoured quotes form EV that most are not found in any of her original works but are said to be from unreleased manuscripts. It would be really interesting to read the manuscripts in there fullness yet to date the White estate doesn't see fit to release them.

Thanks John for your time taken and your response.

By the way I am not anti-trinitarian yet I do not accept the creeds of Catholicism and most certainly not the tritheism of modern SDA isms. I believe that their is clearly one LORD God and one Lord Jesus Christ and they are both Holy and both Spirit yet visible beings in which we are made in the image and likeness of.

Enabled,

While I am not John 317, I also was away all yesterday on Sabbath activity.

First, if anyone wanted to present a case against a perceived Trinity, attacking the nature of Christ is the poorest way to do this - as the discussion of this thread indicates. It is the teaching of the Holy Spirit being an "individual" which has the "weakest" support in Scripture. I put that in quotes, because while there is a case made for the Holy Spirit being God, it is not as plain and strong as the case for Christ and His Divinity.

However, people do fall into the trap of wanting something definitively declared, where God asks of us faith. This is seen clearly throughout the Bible, in the history of the peoples therein. The only definitives God has given have been with respect to His Covenant and the final conclusion of sin. On every other subject - including the plurality found in YHWH Elohim, we have been given information to piece together a puzzle...but the ones who really know are the ones God reveals it to through the prophetic gift. Like every prophetic message, we must proceed on faith.

It is my understanding that not knowing the proper number of participants within the plurality of YHWH Elohim does not invalidate nor abrogate any of the Promises within the Covenant He has made for our salvation. I DO know that plural Elohim means at minimum two Eloha participants within Elohim - and the Bible makes very strong cases for a Father participant and a Son participant. It is the Father and Son around whom the Great Controversy swirls, and in particular, the Son.

The Bible's case for the Holy Spirit as a participant in Elohim is not as strong as that for the Son, but it is there nonetheless. It is my understanding that it is because of the sacrifice the Son made in accepting Incarnation as a man, to join our dead race back to the Source of Life, an expanded presence required of the Holy Spirit to aid and guide mankind (which before the Incarnation was the province of the Son).

As for the case the Trinity - or "tritheism", or what ever the name may be - it does not originate in a creed of Catholicism. The Nicene Creed is not a Catholic creation - the church at Rome was not in a dominant position over any sphere of the Mediterranean at the time it was created. Rome did, over the next 200 years, usurp origination as it gained supremacy over all the other churches.

The Nicene Creed was an attempt to make the Trinity (a doctrine already firmly rooted in the Scripture by 325 AD) a test of Christianity - an action which is not Scriptural. The Creed was created as an agreement between the churches of Corinth, Alexandria, Ephesus, Laodicea, and all the smaller churches/provinces agreeing with them. This Creed was the misguided attempt by the churches to combat the spread of the teachings of Arius (Arianism). The attempt failed, as Arianism (in its various forms) has spent the last 1700 years waging a guerrilla war against the Trinity.

The take home on the history within the SDA church was that EGW never made the Trinity a test of fellowship - as had nearly every Trinitarian and anti-Trinitarian congregation before. The Arian was as welcome to worship and fellowship as the Trinitarian. This was in spite of her clear convictions of the Trinity.

EGW wrote much of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - and had the relationship as God's servant to ask definitively as to which position was indeed truly more Scripture-based. Even so, she never made the Trinity a test of fellowship.

Arianism has cast itself in the guise of being anti-Catholic and anti-Beast - that because the RCC takes credit for the Nicene Creed, any reference to the Trinity must be a suspect doctrine - an emotional appeal, rather than a logical, Scripture-based appeal.

Blessings,

[skyblue888]

Well taken Ted.

sky :)

[Gerr]

That is not a trinity Gerry, I've stated that all along, that God comes to us as Spirit as that is what He is and In His and our Redeemer. We would not live in His direct Presence.

There is no trinity about that. There is just one involved.

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

Gibs, you make an interesting case study of how a closed mind works!!! No matter how clear a statement is, you still say it ain't so!