The Trinity?

[joeb]

This one verse pretty well encompasses all 55 of those posted above,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

That one says about all that needs be said if it can be seen!

I notice it doesn't state anything about the ONE being three!

The Father (1) who is Spirit (2) and the Son (3) are the one Spirit, one Substance. Jesus the Man is another person with the fullness of the Father in Him.

There is no trinity of Gods about that!

To worship the Son is to worship The Father and to worship the Father is to worship the Son as the Father is fully in Him.

This fullness in Christ must remain until what the Father sent out from Himself to do is finally done!.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Then,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Father is all in all again!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So, Gibs, according to your own logic you and I are on the same level as Christ and the Holy Spirit because the Father is in all. Sounds like pantheism to me. Your logic, taken to its logical conclusion, is frightening, Gibs.

[Gerr]

So, by emptying himself, did He cease to be the divine Son of God? Are you going to answer the other questions I proposed?

Did Jesus cease to be God when He became a man? No. He just did not cling to His prerogatives as God. I am not aware of any info in Scripture as to what happened to His divinity while He was a man. All I know is that He "emptied Himself" of any access to that divine power that He had and became a man, not just any man, but a servant!

You had many questions in that previous post which I thought were answered by those lengthy responses that I made. Which of your questions were not answered?

[Gibs]

Joeb, Frightening only to the doctrine of a trinity!

You see you haven't read well my post, I stated the "fullness" of God was in Him, we have but a small measure!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Joeb, Frightening only to the doctrine of a trinity!

You see you haven't read well my post, I stated the "fullness" of God was in Him, we have but a small measure!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You're right. I did miss-read part of your post. But the idea that your post is frightening to the doctrine of trinity, well, I disagree. But then you already knew that, and I'll continue to disagree with your spin on scripture and the SOP.

[Ted Oplinger]

Rather, answer me this, Gibs:

How is Satan telling Jesus to prove His relationship to God by commanding stones into bread, a meaningful temptation in your theology?

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

This one verse pretty well encompasses all 55 of those posted above,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

That one says about all that needs be said if it can be seen!

I notice it doesn't state anything about the ONE being three!

The Father (1) who is Spirit (2) and the Son (3) are the one Spirit, one Substance. Jesus the Man is another person with the fullness of the Father in Him.

There is no trinity of Gods about that!

To worship the Son is to worship The Father and to worship the Father is to worship the Son as the Father is fully in Him.

This fullness in Christ must remain until what the Father sent out from Himself to do is finally done!.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Then,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Father is all in all again!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So, Gibs, according to your own logic you and I are on the same level as Christ and the Holy Spirit because the Father is in all. Sounds like pantheism to me. Your logic, taken to its logical conclusion, is frightening, Gibs.

Arianism, taken to its logical conclusion, is a form of pantheism, joeb. It's not frightening to me, though...just sad, as the SDA church stepped away from both false representations of God over a century ago, and there are still people who fall for it under the guise of worshiping one god.

Blessings,

[Gerr]

The doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the "only true God". John 17:3.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." II John 9-11

Dr. Waite, I believe that if you include the rest of the verse, instead of the Father being solely by Himself God, reaffirms the deity of Christ. Here is the whole verse:

ESV | ‎Jn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

I do not profess to be a Greek scholar, but to which should "and Jesus Christ" be appended to? Should it be attached to "that they know you" which would then read, "And this is eternal life, that they know you and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Or should it be appended to "the only true God," which should then read, "the only true God AND Jesus Christ?" Which would mean that the apostle John who already staked the divinity Christ in Jn 1:1 is reaffirming the same thought in this verse, i.e. the Father AND Christ are God. Either way it is read, to me it affirms that Christ is God. A mere creature CANNOT grant eternal life. Only one who is eternal can grant it.

[Ted Oplinger]

The doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the "only true God". John 17:3.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." II John 9-11

Well, someone forgot to tell Paul the apostle that 1900 years ago, Dr. Waite.

Just to name a couple of separate spots....

In 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, Paul references Psalms 78:12-16 and Exodus 14:15-26, where YHWH lead Israel through the Red Sea and through the wilderness, as Christ Himself. He calls Christ that ROCK Israel all drank from - which is also a clear reference to Isaiah 44:6, where YHWH is seen to the Eloha (one of the few singular form appearances of this word) who is Israel's ROCK.

In Philippians 2:5-11, Paul attributes the God of Isaiah 45:21-24 being Christ Jesus, to the glory of God the Father.

Gee, how on earth can Paul - who was privileged to get his Gospel ministry straight from Jesus - be so very wrong on such an important point?

Unless, that is, the God who is Agape Love (1 John 4:8) really is a plurality (Deuteronomy 6:4) so united and so close, They really are one? Isn't that what one SHOULD expect from the Son filled with Agape Love - to so love the Father He would by nature point all worship to the Father?

Isn't that what we would expect from an Agape Father? to point all worship back to the Son (Philippians 2:10 and Hebrews 1:6)?

Far from being "stakes through the heart of the Trinity doctrine", these are things we SHOULD EXPECT to see in the light of agape love and Luke 22:24-27 (The Greatest is Servant of all)

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

epaminondas,

you asked

Quote:

So, what do you think? Which way do the facts point? I know which way emotion points.

I'll be honest with you. I don't know what to think. Sometimes I pray to the members of the Godhead separately (Father, then Jesus, then Spirit); and sometimes collectively as just "God". I used to stress about which one was right (like this thread is doing). I gave up. I don't care wither it's 3 separate beings, 3 aspects of the same being, or whatever. It's not a salvational issue as far as I'm concerned. It's an interesting topic to discuss; but not worth getting upset over (as some tend to get). I don't have a rebuttal to your post. In ways it makes sense to me.

[JoeMo]

Enabled,

What was the name of the book? The only book I remember posting about is "Jerusalem - the Biography". If that's the book, you can just google it or search for it on amazon.com.

[M. T. Cross]

epaminondas,

you asked

Quote:

So, what do you think? Which way do the facts point? I know which way emotion points.

I'll be honest with you. I don't know what to think. Sometimes I pray to the members of the Godhead separately (Father, then Jesus, then Spirit); and sometimes collectively as just "God". I used to stress about which one was right (like this thread is doing). I gave up. I don't care wither it's 3 separate beings, 3 aspects of the same being, or whatever. It's not a salvational issue as far as I'm concerned. It's an interesting topic to discuss; but not worth getting upset over (as some tend to get). I don't have a rebuttal to your post. In ways it makes sense to me.

And the fact is that there are no facts to it. Look through this thread. Look at all the "facts" supported by both sides. Whether or not you see him as one god with 3 aspects or 3 gods that work in uniformity with each other I would doubt that he really gives a rats backside.

It always surprises me when people use the word "fact" in discussing spiritual matters. There are none. Just information and opinions on that information.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

He is God essentially and in the highest sense.

" Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,

But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being."

Philippians 2:5-7 AMP Brackets Parenthesis their's LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

It always surprises me when people use the word "fact" in discussing spiritual matters. There are none.

"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love!"1 John 4:8 NASB

And if that isn't a fact it's a sure fact you can kiss your future goodbye!

God blesses!

[Dr. Waite]

1 Corinthians 10:1-4, Psalms 78:12-16, Exodus 14:15-26, and Isaiah 44:6 do not take away the fact that the doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the only true God.

[Gibs]

You are so right Dr. Waite, Isa 44:6,8 actually solidify ONE God and ONE only!

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

God is Elohiym and this is Our Father and His Redeemer possessed, extended from Himself and they are ONE as Jesus has explicitly stated.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The verse following 29 Jesus tells us why you can no more pluck them from His hand than you could the Fathers!

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

1 Corinthians 10:1-4, Psalms 78:12-16, Exodus 14:15-26, and Isaiah 44:6 do not take away the fact that the doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the only true God.

Forgot to put Philippians 2:5-10 in with that...

No, they do not take away the fact Father is Elohim (plural form - God). What these verses put together DO say is that Paul declared Jesus to be Elohim also.

Elohim is the plural Hebrew word for God. Its usage in the Old Testament points to a plural God so united they are, for all practical reference, one God. That is what Deuteronomy 6:4 is declaring - not a plurality of gods, but a plural God. Father is the only true God - and the Son is the only true God. The Two are One - both are the very essence of Deity.

I can see a number of places in the Old Testament where Elohim is speaking - some are very clearly Father, others are distinctly Son. There are a couple of places where Father and Son speak to each other in the passage. BOTH have places where each declares to Israel to be their God, and having no god formed before or after, nor beside Him. There are a few references when the Hebrew word for God is distinctly SINGULAR - only ONE of the Elohim is speaking. If my memory is indeed correct, those reference ONLY the Son, as they contain prophecy/actions referenced by the inspired New Testament writers as applying to Christ - either in His earthly ministry or His actions in heaven thereafter.

Blessings,

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

"Forgot to put Philippians 2:5-10 in with that...

No, they do not take away the fact Father is Elohim (plural form - God). What these verses put together DO say is that Paul declared Jesus to be Elohim also.

Elohim is the plural Hebrew word for God. Its usage in the Old Testament points to a plural God so united they are, for all practical reference, one God. That is what Deuteronomy 6:4 is declaring - not a plurality of gods, but a plural God. Father is the only true God - and the Son is the only true God. The Two are One - both are the very essence of Deity.

I can see a number of places in the Old Testament where Elohim is speaking - some are very clearly Father, others are distinctly Son. There are a couple of places where Father and Son speak to each other in the passage. BOTH have places where each declares to Israel to be their God, and having no god formed before or after, nor beside Him. There are a few references when the Hebrew word for God is distinctly SINGULAR - only ONE of the Elohim is speaking. If my memory is indeed correct, those reference ONLY the Son, as they contain prophecy/actions referenced by the inspired New Testament writers as applying to Christ - either in His earthly ministry or His actions in heaven thereafter."

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language.

When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".[1][2] It is generally thought that Elohim is a formation from eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il (אֵל, ʾēl[3]). It is usually translated as "God" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities. With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".[3] The related nouns eloah (אלוה) and el (אֵל) are used as proper names or as generics, in which case they are interchangeable with elohim.[3]

This still does NOT take away the fact that the doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the "only true God". John 17:3

[Gerr]

God is Elohiym and this is Our Father and His Redeemer possessed, extended from Himself and they are ONE as Jesus has explicitly stated.

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person,yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

God is Elohiym and this is Our Father and His Redeemer possessed, extended from Himself and they are ONE as Jesus has explicitly stated.

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

This quote {FLB 46.5} clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, is a distinct person from the Father. This supports the doctrine of Christ which states that the "only true God" is the Father of Jesus Christ.

[Enabled]

Sorry JoeMo this was @ JOEB from his statement as follows:

Quote:

If you would like to see what I believe on the issue download ebook, SDABC vol 7a from the EGW Estate website. It contains 3 appendixes: Christ's Place in the Godhead, Christ's Nature During the Incarnation, and The Atonement. If you read them you will come away with a good understanding of Ellen White's position on all three issues, and see how Gib's distorts her position. Her statements in these 3 appendixes are so plain they cannot be misinterpreted.

I believe he was responding to you though.

Thanks for the response though.

Still hoping for an answer from JOEB.

[Gibs]

Gerry, of course Jesus Christ was a distinct person, He was the son of Mary and His Father, but that does not alter the fact the Father in Him was the Deity in Him.

The Son of God being born of Mary didn't make Him God, He was a union of the Father in Marys babe that makes Him God with us.

The extension of the Father, to give us a redeemer was done long before Bethlehem. Then His the Fathers Redeemer became our Redeemer at Bethlehem. Heaven was emptied of the extended Redeemer.

You see Jesus could not state "I am the first" unless He and the Father truly are one which is a fact and Jesus says so himself!

None, not even one is first before the Father.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

For Heavens sake he tells us, "I and my Father are one!"

He tells you also,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

He was not born of God, He was not created by God, nor was another God ever formed before or after.

There is only one answer and it is made clear unles one has a mindset against receiving it.

The Father extended Himself, not hard as He is Spirit. The great Almighty Holy Spirit of whom all spirit created life is given!

He extended Himself wholly into our Redeemer.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Fully YHWH in the body of the man Jesus Christ, His son born of the woman Mary and of course her son, the son of man.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

"Forgot to put Philippians 2:5-10 in with that...

No, they do not take away the fact Father is Elohim (plural form - God). What these verses put together DO say is that Paul declared Jesus to be Elohim also.

Elohim is the plural Hebrew word for God. Its usage in the Old Testament points to a plural God so united they are, for all practical reference, one God. That is what Deuteronomy 6:4 is declaring - not a plurality of gods, but a plural God. Father is the only true God - and the Son is the only true God. The Two are One - both are the very essence of Deity.

I can see a number of places in the Old Testament where Elohim is speaking - some are very clearly Father, others are distinctly Son. There are a couple of places where Father and Son speak to each other in the passage. BOTH have places where each declares to Israel to be their God, and having no god formed before or after, nor beside Him. There are a few references when the Hebrew word for God is distinctly SINGULAR - only ONE of the Elohim is speaking. If my memory is indeed correct, those reference ONLY the Son, as they contain prophecy/actions referenced by the inspired New Testament writers as applying to Christ - either in His earthly ministry or His actions in heaven thereafter."

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language.

When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".[1][2] It is generally thought that Elohim is a formation from eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il (אֵל, ʾēl[3]). It is usually translated as "God" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities. With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".[3] The related nouns eloah (אלוה) and el (אֵל) are used as proper names or as generics, in which case they are interchangeable with elohim.[3]

This still does NOT take away the fact that the doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the "only true God". John 17:3

I tend to not use Wikipedia, as it is way too easy to get false, abridged information.

I tend to agree with Hebrew scholars over the decades who know the language way better...those who recognize that the word "Elohim" is the plural form of the singular "Eloha", which is also found used in the Bible in certain instances. The two are not interchangeable, even though they both use singular cased verbs and adjectives in most instances (that is where Wikipedia is incorrect).

It is the presence of the word, "Eloha", which convinced me there was something much deeper about the nature of Deity than a mere mathematical point.

I tend to think that Moses, knowing God far more personally than any of us, had good reason for using the plural form (when he could have easily used the singular form instead) in order to say with precision what God wanted communicated to Israel about Himself. If the Living, Self-Existent One was a mathematical one, Moses should have used the singular form only to create a true testimony. Doing otherwise creates a false testimony. Moses, under inspiration from God, used the plural form to best describe what the Living, Self-Existent One is. God inspired the use of the singular form ONLY in certain occasions.

Hence, when Moses used Elohim in Deuteronomy 6:4, he was communicating exactly the thought He wanted Moses to communicate. Christ would use that exact thought again to the Pharisees 1500 years later, when asked what the greatest law in Mark 12:29.

The plural God, so united, they are one. They are not "Gods". They (plural) are "God" (singular). There is no hierarchy, no division in that plurality within that singular unity. That is the Biblical testimony as I understand it. That is Christ's own testimony on the subject, as I understand it.

Christ would use this point to confound the Pharisees when He put them to the question in Luke 20:41-44. If David, under inspiration, called the coming Messiah God, then how could the Messiah be a flesh and blood descendant? Yet, Elohim declared decisively in prophecy the Messiah would be a flesh and blood descendant of David....just as pointed out in symbol form in the tabernacle.

In all, I see attempts to place the Father over the Son stem from the human need to place hierarchy into everything: a singular someone has to be "on top", even in heaven. However, our familiar hierarchy was nixed by Jesus in Luke 22, as to who was greatest in the kingdom.

To me, attempts to place God into a mathematical "one" ignore this mute testimony by Moses. Such attempts ignore, or twist, the plain testimony of the apostles as they attribute to Christ those Old Testament Scriptures referencing actions and attributes to Elohim. I have not, and will not, be convinced by any argument that dismisses Moses' mute testimony, or that of the apostles , in such a cavalier manner.

If what you want to do, Dr. Waite, is approach God with the name of Father only, then by all means do so - I am not here to tell you any different. I am at peace even if you want to base your understanding upon what is to me a very limited construct of what the Scriptures say. You must respond to God according to the conviction He has laid upon your heart, not mine.

You (and Gibs and epaminondas) have demonstrated a concerted perspective of not being at peace, though, when I (and others like me) find a deeper testimony in the Bible about Elohim, and base our convictions on it.

When you all come here to pick and quibble about the Trinity, declare there is no Trinity, yet cannot explain rationally even some of the most basic questions posed back in reply (aka, the temptation of Christ seen in Matthew 4:3, 4, as well as God's commandings seen in Hebrews 1:6-8), it makes me tend think you all are not really at peace with the Word. This has been demonstrated in many of the straw man arguments and Scripture parsing I have seen used in attacking "those evil, dirt-dealing trinitarians".

The most basic question the "Trinity" delves to answer is the Divine nature of Christ. It is that question which began the whole Great Controversy in the beginning. There is a true answer to that question...but God is not making the salvation of all mankind contingent upon getting that answer right. To those who He has laid that question to heart, we have the obligation to God to obtain that conviction from God, and not from our petty disputes with certain people groups.

Blessings,

PS - in parting, I am still waiting for Gibs to clarify is response to my question on Matthew 4:3, 4. Right now, it appears very much like he has contradicted himself in this thread - first, claiming Christ was not Divine, but a created being; then he states Christ was tempted by the devil to use His Divinity. To be consistent in his logic - Gibs must state Christ was but a created being, coming into being at Bethlehem with no Divinity of his own, or Christ was indeed the Divine in His own right while human, having Divine power of His own to use if he so chose at that scene in Matthew 4:3, 4. Which is it?

Perhaps you'd like to answer that, Dr. Waite?

Blessings (again),

[Gibs]

Ted what I am saying is the fact that the Divinity of Christ is the Father in Him,

Please read,

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Ted when He was born the Father came in Him or He could not have been Deity. If the Father had not of come in Him He would have been the Prince of the Father but would not have been God with us.

I may not have stated that clear enough I don't know, but what I do know is most want to distort my testimony. Most know from what has been put forth that there is no argument for a trinity as the scripture is void of standing for it.

You trinitarians just refuse to believe scriptures like this one!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (LORD) in all caps. is YHWH!)

We Ted who are not trinitarians I find know better who the Elohiym is than you all. I've even stated it many times!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted what I am saying is the fact that the Divinity of Christ is the Father in Him,

Please read,

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Ted when He was born the Father came in Him or He could not have been Deity. If the Father had not of come in Him He would have been the Prince of the Father but would not have been God with us.

I may not have stated that clear enough I don't know, but what I do know is most want to distort my testimony. Most know from what has been put forth that there is no argument for a trinity as the scripture is void of standing for it.

You trinitarians just refuse to believe scriptures like this one!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (LORD) in all caps. is YHWH!)

We Ted who are not trinitarians I find know better who the Elohiym is than you all. I've even stated it many times!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Then what you are saying is that Christ never was tempted as people are tempted.

The dynamics of temptation always involve a choice. That choice is always between:

1) Trusting in the Word to resolve the issue, or

2) Trusting one's own power to resolve the issue.

This was true of man, even in man's innocence. A temptation always has the option to use what is within one's own power (outside of God) to resolve the temptation.

If Christ had no power of His own to turn stones into bread, then it cannot be a temptation at all. It would be as if any godly human being was asked to prove themselves by turning stones to bread. It is a impossibility, because of humanity's lack of its own Divine power to do this.

It is also folly to suggest the Father would have allowed Christ to use the Father's own Divine power to sin.

In short - you cannot rationally explain how this is a true temptation. From what I see of your position, Matthew 4:1-10 (and its companion passages in the other Gospels) was nothing but some sort of plastic, walk-through strut by God, having absolutely no relationship to what is common to humanity. It is a position that cannot be reconciled to the Scriptures.

As for refusing to believe - do not be so insipid, Gibs. Refusing to look at Scripture as you do does not constitute unbelief. It means I have a different perspective. You have God in your little box where you are comfortable with Him. I have not tried to take that from you. You, on the other hand, have done your level best to disparage believers to don't agree to your perspective. Where you challenged, we responded - and you failed to give anything outside your listed talking points to coherently engage an opposing viewpoint.

The "us vs. them" attitude you have does not come from Christ, Gibs. Likewise, the spirit of pride and braggadocio found in your last comment....which is certainly does not find its source in agape love (1 Corinthians 13:4, 5).

Blessings,

[Gerr]

1 Corinthians 10:1-4, Psalms 78:12-16, Exodus 14:15-26, and Isaiah 44:6 do not take away the fact that the doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the only true God.

Does that mean that Christ and the HS are false gods?