The Trinity?

[LifeHiscost]

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"Forever and ever" is not some finite time.

Depends on the object of which it describes.

"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev 29:10 NKJV

"“For behold, the day is coming,

Burning like an oven,

And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.

And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”

Says the Lord of hosts,

“That will leave them neither root nor branch.

But to you who fear My name

The Sun of Righteousness shall arise

With healing in His wings;

And you shall go out

And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

You shall trample the wicked,

For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

On the day that I do this,”

Says the Lord of hosts."Malachi 4:1-3 NKJV

God blesses!

[debbym]

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If you have father Smith, mother Smith and Jackie Smith making up the Smith family - the collection - then neither of them individually is the Smith family.

Yes, i can see that each one individually is not the family, but each one is individually and unequivocally fully human. just as each member of the Godhead is fully God.

they fully share the same substance and essence and have all the prerogatives of what it means to be fully human.

they are not confused with any other order of being. and each one is no less or no more human then the other.

debbym

[epaminondas]

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Soooo, just who are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that the Bible speaks of?

We have to look at Biblical statements directly addressing the question. Of the three, the Bible says least about the Holy Spirit. Make a list where you get clear, unambiguous statements that will help throwing some light on the subject. E.g. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit and the Father would send the Holy Spirit. We don't find the reverse. Who sends whom seems to indicate a hierarchy. The Bible also says what the Holy Spirit will do.

The relationship between Jesus and the Father is always indicated as a father-son relationship, never brother-brother. This is strongly against equality. Jesus said the Father was greater than he, Jesus.

When you have spent some time doing this, a picture will start to emerge. But it won't be a very detailed picture. Nevertheless, you will have some solid points you can bank on.

Trinitarians have demoted the Father and taken Him out of the picture so it seems He did very little and played a very small role in things. According to them Jesus did everything. I believe the Father is the prime mover. Whatever Jesus did, he did under the Father's direction. Jesus did say he spoke not his own words, but what the Father had told him.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

If you have father Smith, mother Smith and Jackie Smith making up the Smith family - the collection - then neither of them individually is the Smith family.

Yes, i can see that each one individually is not the family, but each one is individually and unequivocally fully human. just as each member of the Godhead is fully God.

they fully share the same substance and essence and have all the prerogatives of what it means to be fully human.

they are not confused with any other order of being. and each one is no less or no more human then the other.

debbym

What you do is replace the collection "Smith family" with another collection, humans. The collection "Smith family" is a member of another bigger collection, humans. Yes, a collection can have other collections as members.

You also introduce biological taxonomy in talking about the species (Homo sapiens) each member of the Smith family belongs to. There is not one shred of evidence that God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus in their present conditions belong to any biological species. Jesus said God is spirit, and left it at that. This "essence" thing is to be deprecated as it has no foundation in fact. We have no idea about what any of the three consist of.

So, in the end you can't get past the absurdities that are part and parcel of the trinitarian dogma.

[John317]

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ASV: II Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

...Here you have the "and" conjunction. If no article is used, then the two entities joined by "and" are taken to be one and the same, like Gerry understands it. If, however, an article (the or a) is used, like in Gerry's quote, for either of the entities joined by the "and" we are talking of two entities. The two entities in this case are {the righteousness (which is dative - says what the faith is in) of our (note that the our here is plural in Greek, signifying at least two things belong to us) God (which is genitive - says who the righteousness belongs to)} and {[the righteousness] of [our] (indicated because, as mentioned, the our is plural) (1)saviour (2)Jesus (3)Christ(all three genitive, indicating that the righteousness belongs to Jesus, too} - these are what we have faith in....

Strangely enough, neither the translations without articles nor the ACV are correct, although the ACV transmits the message of the original Greek without distorting it. The original Greek precedes the word theou (god - in the genitive declension here) with the word tou, which is used 2358 times in the New Testament, in by far the most cases translated as "of the" when followed the the genitive declension of the noun. It really means "the." Read about the use of the word tou in the New Testament

Therefore, by far the strongest case can be made for "Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ to those who equally precious with us having obtained faith, through [the] righteousness of the God of us and of (Savior, Jesus Christ):" This is very close to literal. Clearly, two separate entities are involved.

So, once again the devious trinitarians (even more devious than the Sunday people, but mostly one and the same) have used underhandedness to advance their case. Such is the foundation of the trinitarian dogma.

Are you sure you understand the special rule of the Greek article?

How many persons, or entities, are being referred to in 2 Peter 1: 11?

The Greek: tou kuriou hmon kai sothros Iesou christou

Now compare 2 Peter 1: 1:

tou theo hmon kai sothros Iesou christou

They are exactly the same construction, aren't they?

If 2 Peter 1: 11 is about a single person, why is 2 Peter 1: 1 about two distinct persons?

You said:

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

If no article is used, then the two entities joined by "and" are taken to be one and the same, like Gerry understands it. If, however, an article (the or a) is used, like in Gerry's quote, for either of the entities joined by the "and" we are talking of two entities.

But that is false.

Please go back and restudy the rules governing the use of the Greek article that you will find in any standard text for teaching NT Greek.

[John317]

So, Jesus is the creator of all, he was with Moses at the burning bush, he led the Israelites out of Egypt and many more. Tell me, what did the Father do, then?

This is the reading of the oldest Greek manuscript of Jude 5:

"Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." (English Standard Version)

Other manuscripts have "Lord" in place of "Jesus," and at least one Greek text reads "God." The truth is that all three manuscripts are correct. It was Jesus Christ, the Lord and God who saved the people out of the land of Egypt. It was also the Father. All three persons of the Godhead have worked together in complete harmony in creation and salvation.

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

If you have father Smith, mother Smith and Jackie Smith making up the Smith family - the collection - then neither of them individually is the Smith family.

Yes, i can see that each one individually is not the family, but each one is individually and unequivocally fully human. just as each member of the Godhead is fully God.

they fully share the same substance and essence and have all the prerogatives of what it means to be fully human.

they are not confused with any other order of being. and each one is no less or no more human then the other.

debbym

Where in the Bible does it say that each member of the godhead is "fully God"?

Most will agree that the Father is "God" or "fully God". He does not have a God who He is subject to and He is the Father of all. Ephesians 4:6 The Father was not given "life within himself" from another entity.

How can Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, be "fully God" if he was given "life within himself"? See John 5:26. If He was "fully God" He would naturally have "life within himself". How can Jesus Christ be "fully God" if he has a God? See John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12. How can Jesus Christ be "fully God" when He will always be subject to Him that put all things under him? See 1 Corinthians 15:28. How can Jesus Christ be "fully God" if He does not have the authority to decide who will sit on his right hand and his left? See Matthew 20:23. How can Jesus Christ be "fully God" if He does not know the day and hour of his second coming? See Matthew 24:36.

How can the holy spirit be "fully God" if he does not speak of himself? See John 16:13 The Father is able to speak of himself and the Son is able to speak of himself.

[Gerr]

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

What God do you trinitarians worship in Christ if you can't see that it is the Father in Him. What is his name?

Christ knew who God was and is, Yahweh and so that is the only one their is to be in Christ our Saviour.

Yes you see scripture states "fully God" in Him a body as ours!

Well who in the total of the universes is that God? I declare unto you, it is Yahweh King of Israel! And not the Israel of earth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

When the HS, Christ, and the Father indwells a believer, what does it mean?

[Gibs]

Gerry since there is but one Holy Spirit and that is Yahweh the Father and He is in Christ and there is but one God and none else it can mean but one thing.

This verse explains it,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Christ in you is the Father in you.

Howbeit that in Christ, His fullness dwelt, in us a measure, the same measure Christ could use to overcome the world and Satan.

He came to overcome as a man from where we are, not as God, that He could succor us.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

God cannot be tempted!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

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Soooo, just who are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that the Bible speaks of?

We have to look at Biblical statements directly addressing the question. Of the three, the Bible says least about the Holy Spirit. Make a list where you get clear, unambiguous statements that will help throwing some light on the subject.

I am taking your advice. Here is a list of "clear, unambiguous statements from Holy Writ.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON

1. He creates and gives life. Job 33:4.

2. He appoints and commissions ministers. Isa 48:16; Ac 13:2; 20:28.

3. He directs ministers where to preach. Ac 8:29; 10:19,20.

4. He directs ministers where not to preach. Ac 16:6,7.

5. He instructs ministers what to preach. 1Co 2:13.

6. He spoke in, and by, the prophets. Ac 1:16; 1Pe 1:11,12; 2Pe 1:21.

7. He strives with sinners. Ge 6:3.

8. He reproves. Joh 16:8.

9. He comforts. Ac 9:31.

10. He helps our infirmities. Ro 8:26.

11. He teaches. Joh 14:26; 1Co 12:3.

12. He guides. Joh 16:13.

13. He sanctifies. Ro 15:16; 1Co 6:11.

14. He testifies of Christ. Joh 15:26.

15. He glorifies Christ. Joh 16:14.

16. He has a power of his own. Ro 15:13.

17. He searches all things. Ro 11:33,34; 1Co 2:10,11.

18. He works according to his own will. 1Co 12:11.

19. He dwells with saints. Joh 14:17.

20. He can be grieved. Eph 4:30.

21. He can be vexed. Isa 63:10.

22. He can be resisted. Ac 7:51.

23. He can be tempted. Ac 5:9.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD

1. As Jehovah. Ex 17:7; Heb 3:7-9; Nu 12:6; 2Pe 1:21.

2. As Jehovah of hosts. Isa 6:3,8-10; Ac 28:25.

3. As Jehovah, Most High. Ps 78:17,21; Ac 7:51.

4. Being invoked as Jehovah. Lu 2:26-29; Ac 4:23-25; 1:16,20; 2Th 3:5.

5. As called God. Ac 5:3,4.

6. As joined with the Father and the Son in the baptismal formula. Mt 28:19.

7. As eternal. Heb 9:14.

8. As omnipresent. Ps 139:7-13.

9. As omniscient. 1Co 2:10.

10. As omnipotent. Lu 1:35; Ro 15:19.

11. As the Spirit of glory and of God. 1Pe 4:14.

12. As Creator. Ge 1:26,27; Job 33:4.

13. As equal to, and one with the Father. Mt 28:19; 2Co 13:14.

14. As Sovereign Disposer of all things. Da 4:35; 1Co 12:6,11.

15. As Author of the new birth. Joh 3:5,6; 1Jo 5:4.

16. As raising Christ from the dead. Ac 2:24; 1Pe 3:18; Heb 13:20; Ro 1:4.

17. As inspiring Scripture. 2Ti 3:16; 2Pe 1:21.

18. As the source of wisdom. 1Co 12:8; Isa 11:2; Joh 16:13; 14:26.

19. As the source of miraculous power. Mt 12:28; Lu 11:20; Ac 19:11; Ro 15:19.

20. As appointing and sending ministers. Ac 13:2,4; 9:38; 20:28.

21. As directing where the gospel should be preached. Ac 16:6,7,10.

22. As dwelling in saints. Joh 14:17; 1Co 14:25; 3:16; 6:19.

23. As Comforter of the Church. Ac 9:31; 2Co 1:3.

24. As sanctifying the Church. Eze 37:28; Ro 15:16.

25. As the Witness. Heb 10:15; 1Jo 5:9.

26. As convincing of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. Joh 16:8-11.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE COMFORTER

1. Proceeds from the Father. Joh 15:26.

2. Given

a. By the Father. Joh 14:16.

b. By Christ. Isa 61:3.

c. Through Christ’s intercession. Joh 14:16.

3. Sent in the name of Christ. Joh 14:26.

4. Sent by Christ from the Father. Joh 15:26; 16:7.

5. As such he

a. Communicates joy to saints. Ro 14:17; Ga 5:22; 1Th 1:6.

b. Edifies the Church. Ac 9:31.

c. Testifies of Christ. Joh 15:26.

d. Imparts the love of God. Ro 5:3-5.

e. Imparts hope. Ro 15:13; Ga 5:5.

f. Teaches saints. Joh 14:26.

g. Dwells with, and in saints. Joh 14:17.

h. Abides for ever with saints. Joh 14:16.

i. Is known by saints. Joh 14:17.

6. The world cannot receive. Joh 14:17.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A TEACHER

the Teacher, The.

1. Promised. Pr 1:23.

2. As the Spirit of wisdom. Isa 11:2; 40:13,14.

3. Given

a. In answer to prayer. Eph 1:16,17.

b. To saints. Ne 9:20; 1Co 2:12,13.

4. Necessity for. 1Co 2:9,10.

5. As such he

a. Reveals the things of God. 1Co 2:10,13.

b. Reveals the things of Christ. Joh 16:14.

c. Reveals the future. Lu 2:26; Ac 21:11.

d. Brings the words of Christ to remembrance. Joh 14:26.

e. Directs in the way of godliness. Isa 30:21; Eze 36:27.

f. Teaches saints to answer persecutors. Mr 13:11; Lu 12:12.

g. Enables ministers to teach. 1Co 12:8.

h. Guides into all truth. Joh 14:26; 16:13.

i. Directs the decisions of the Church. Ac 15:28.

6. Attend to the instruction of. Re 2:7,11,29.

7. The natural man will not receive the things of. 1Co 2:14.

Torrey, R. (2001). The new topical text book: A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Bible Software.

So you see, there is not the dearth of info on the HS than meets the eye.

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E.g. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit and the Father would send the Holy Spirit. We don't find the reverse. Who sends whom seems to indicate a hierarchy. The Bible also says what the Holy Spirit will do.

Maybe they have an agreed upon function.

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The relationship between Jesus and the Father is always indicated as a father-son relationship, never brother-brother. This is strongly against equality. Jesus said the Father was greater than he, Jesus.

When you have spent some time doing this, a picture will start to emerge. But it won't be a very detailed picture. Nevertheless, you will have some solid points you can bank on.

Here are some passages of scripture that I can bank on regarding the Father-Son relationship.

1. Jesus was "begotten" when He was conceived of the HS, Mt 1:18; Lk 1:32,35

2. Jesus was declared "Son" at His baptism, Mt 3:16

3. Jesus was declared "Son of God" by/at His resurrection, Rom 1:4

4. Jesus was declared "Son" and "begotten" on the day of His enthronement at the right hand of God, Heb 1

5. Jesus was declared "Son" and "begotten" on the "today" He was appointed priest "after the order of Melchizedek", Heb 5:5,6

Quote:

Trinitarians have demoted the Father and taken Him out of the picture so it seems He did very little and played a very small role in things. According to them Jesus did everything. I believe the Father is the prime mover. Whatever Jesus did, he did under the Father's direction. Jesus did say he spoke not his own words, but what the Father had told him.

Read the scriptures more closely and you will find that ALL THREE are involved in EVERY divine activity. That is why they are ONE.

[Gerr]

Where in the Bible does it say that each member of the godhead is "fully God"?

Re: Holy Spirit see my response to Epamonidas.

Re: Christ is God.

1. As Jehovah. Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3.

2. As Jehovah of glory. Ps 24:7,10; 1Co 2:8; Jas 2:1.

3. As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 23:5,6; 1Co 1:30.

4. As Jehovah, above all. Ps 97:9; Joh 3:31.

5. As Jehovah, the First and the Last. Isa 44:6; Re 1:17; Isa 48:12-16; Re 22:13.

6. As Jehovah’s Fellow and Equal. Zec 13:7; Php 2:6.

7. As Jehovah of Hosts. Isa 6:1-3; Joh 12:41; Isa 8:13,14; 1Pe 2:8.

8. As Jehovah, the Shepherd. Isa 40:11; Heb 13:20.

9. As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created. Pr 16:4; Col 1:16.

10. As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant. Mal 3:1; Mr 1:2; Lu 2:27.

11. Invoked as Jehovah. Joe 2:32; Ac 2:21; 1Co 1:2.

12. As the Eternal God and Creator. Ps 102:24-27; Heb 1:8,10-12.

13. As the mighty God. Isa 9:6.

14. As the Great God and Saviour. Ho 1:7; Tit 2:13.

15. As God over all. Ps 45:6,7; Ro 9:5.

16. As the true God. Jer 10:10; 1Jo 5:20.

17. As God the Word. Joh 1:1.

18. As God, the judge. Ec 12:14; 1Co 4:5; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1.

19. As Emmanuel. Isa 7:14; Mt 1:23.

20. As King of kings and Lord of lords. Da 10:17; Re 1:5; 17:14.

21. As the Holy One. 1Sa 2:2; Ac 3:14.

22. As the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:47.

23. As Lord of the Sabbath. Ge 2:3; Mt 12:8.

24. As Lord of all. Ac 10:36; Ro 10:11-13.

25. As Son of God. Mt 26:63-67.

26. As the Only-begotten Son of the Father. Joh 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9.

27. His blood is called the blood of God. Ac 20:28.

28. As one with the Father. Joh 10:30,38; 12:45; 14:7-10; 17:10.

29. As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father. Joh 14:16; 15:26.

30. As entitled to equal honour with the Father. Joh 5:23.

31. As Owner of all things, equally with the Father. Joh 16:15.

32. As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father. Joh 5:17.

33. As the Source of grace, equally with the Father. 1Th 3:11; 2Th 2:16,17.

34. As unsearchable, equally with the Father. Pr 30:4; Mt 11:27.

35. As Creator of all things. Isa 40:28; Joh 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

36. As Supporter and Preserver of all things. Ne 9:6; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3.

37. As possessed of the fulness of the God head. Col 2:9; Heb 1:3.

38. As raising the dead. Joh 5:21; 6:40,54.

39. As raising himself from the dead. Joh 2:19,21; 10:18.

40. As Eternal. Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2; Joh 1:1; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8-10; Re 1:8.

41. As Omnipresent. Mt 18:20; 28:20; Joh 3:13.

42. As Omnipotent. Ps 45:3; Php 3:21; Re 1:8.

43. As Omniscient. Joh 16:30; 21:17.

44. As discerning the thoughts of the heart. 1Ki 8:39; Lu 5:22; Eze 11:5; Joh 2:24,25; Re 2:23.

45. As unchangeable. Mal 3:6; Heb 1:12; 13:8.

46. As having power to forgive sins. Col 3:13; Mr 2:7,10.

47. As Giver of pastors to the Church. Jer 3:15; Eph 4:11-13.

48. As Husband of the Church. Isa 54:5; Eph 5:25-32; Isa 62:5; Re 21:2,9.

49. As the object of divine worship. Ac 7:59; 2Co 12:8,9; Heb 1:6; Re 5:12.

50. As the object of faith. Ps 2:12; 1Pe 2:6; Jer 17:5,7; Joh 14:1.

51. As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself. Re 5:9; Tit 2:14.

52. As God, he presents the Church to himself. Eph 5:27; Jude 1:24,25.

53. Saints live to him as God. Ro 6:11; Ga 2:19; 2Co 5:15.

54. Acknowledged by his Apostles. Joh 20:28.

55. Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints. Ge 17:1; 48:15,16; 32:24-30; Ho 12:3-5; Jdj 6:22-24; 13:21,22; Job 19:25-27.

Torrey, R. (2001). The new topical text book: A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Bible Software.

[Gerr]

Since the context of what I quoted was referring to God, "forever" is of unlimited time.

[Dr. Waite]

Gerry:

You took a lot of space. I believe you need to edit this. I agree, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is called "God" see Hebrews 1:8

However, you failed to answer the specific questions I proposed.

[Gerr]

Gerry since there is but one Holy Spirit and that is Yahweh the Father and He is in Christ and there is but one God and none else it can mean but one thing.

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

What part of "distinct person" is not clear to you, Gibs?

[Gerr]

Gerry:

You took a lot of space. I believe you need to edit this. I agree, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is called "God" see Hebrews 1:8

However, you failed to answer the specific questions I proposed.

Why He didn't know His own coming? When He came, He did not come as the omniscient God that He was, ESV | ‎Php 2:6 "though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ‎7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

He was totally dependent on His Father as we all must.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Gerry:

You took a lot of space. I believe you need to edit this. I agree, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is called "God" see Hebrews 1:8

However, you failed to answer the specific questions I proposed.

Why He didn't know His own coming? When He came, He did not come as the omniscient God that He was, ESV | ‎Php 2:6 "though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ‎7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

He was totally dependent on His Father as we all must.

So, by emptying himself, did He cease to be the divine Son of God? Are you going to answer the other questions I proposed?

[John317]

There is not one shred of evidence that God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus in their present conditions belong to any biological species. Jesus said God is spirit, and left it at that. This "essence" thing is to be deprecated as it has no foundation in fact. We have no idea about what any of the three consist of.

Of course no one is claiming that God and the Holy Spirit belong to any "biological species."

But please look carefully at Hebrews 1: 3, where the Scripture says that the eternal Son of God is "the exact representation [or exact impress] of the Father's essence." "Essence" is a translation of the Greek noun, hupostasis, Strong's #5287. It also means "substance," "essential nature."

Heb 1: 3 is saying the same thing about Christ that is said in John 1: 1 (last clause) and Col 2: 9.

Christ is just like God the Father. Jesus himself said the same thing in John 14: 9, "He who has seen me has seen the Father."

[John317]

Where in the Bible does it say that each member of the godhead is "fully God"?

Study Hebrews 1: 3, where the Scripture says that the eternal Son of God is "the exact representation [or exact impress] of the Father's essence." "Essence" is a translation of the Greek noun, hupostasis, Strong's #5287. It also means "substance," "essential nature."

John 1: 1 (last clause) says that Christ is just like the Father. The New English Bible gives the correct sense, "and what God was, the word was."

Col. 2: 9 says that "in Christ's body lives all the fulness of Deity." It isn't referring to the qualities or characteristics of God; rather, it's talking about God's very substance or essence. In short, it's saying that Christ is fully God.

[John317]

...So, by emptying himself, did He cease to be the divine Son of God?

No. When Christ became a man-- took on a human body-- He did not cease to be God. He gave up His prerogatives as God. While on earth, Christ never used his powers as God to overcome the Devil and sin or to perform miracles. Instead, as our example, He relied totally upon His Father, the Holy Spirit, the angels, and even on other humans.

[John317]

I agree, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is called "God" see Hebrews 1:8

Then Jesus Christ, the Son of God, IS God. He is as much "God" as the FAther is "God." He is God essentially and in the highest sense. Col. 2: 9 says that in Christ's body "lives the whole fullness of the Godhead." Therefore God the Father is not God in any higher sense than Christ is.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Where in the Bible does it say that each member of the godhead is "fully God"?

Study Hebrews 1: 3, where the Scripture says that the eternal Son of God is "the exact representation [or exact impress] of the Father's essence." "Essence" is a translation of the Greek noun, hupostasis, Strong's #5287. It also means "substance," "essential nature."

John 1: 1 (last clause) says that Christ is just like the Father. The New English Bible gives the correct sense, "and what God was, the word was."

Col. 2: 9 says that "in Christ's body lives all the fulness of Deity." It isn't referring to the qualities or characteristics of God; rather, it's talking about God's very substance or essence. In short, it's saying that Christ is fully God.

The word in the original - ὑπόστασις hupostasis - whence our word "hypostasis," means, literally, a "foundation," or "substructure." Then it means a well-founded trust, firm expectation, confidence, firmness, boldness; and then "reality, substance, essential nature." In the New Testament, it is rendered "confident," or "confidence" 2 Corinthians 9:4; 2 Corinthians 11:17; Hebrews 3:14; "substance" Hebrews 11:1; and "person" in the passage before us. It is not used elsewhere. Here it properly refers to the essential nature of God - what distinguishes him from all other beings, and which, if I may so say, "constitutes him God;" and the idea is, that the Redeemer is the exact resemblance of "that." This resemblance consists, probably, in the following things - though perhaps the enumeration does not include all - but in these he certainly resembles God, or is his exact image:

Does the statue of President Abraham Lincoln in the Rotunda of the U.S. Capitol make the image "fully President Lincoln"?

[John317]

Gerry:

You took a lot of space. I believe you need to edit this.

Dr. Waite, you should study closely what's in that list. It isn't simply taking up a lot of space. If you think that's all it is-- a lot of space-- you're completely missing its signifance and meaning. Please take time to look up those texts in your Bible and prayerfully consider what they're saying, comparing scripture with scripture. The texts are worth posting again:

1. As Jehovah. Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3.

2. As Jehovah of glory. Ps 24:7,10; 1Co 2:8; Jas 2:1.

3. As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 23:5,6; 1Co 1:30.

4. As Jehovah, above all. Ps 97:9; Joh 3:31.

5. As Jehovah, the First and the Last. Isa 44:6; Re 1:17; Isa 48:12-16; Re 22:13.

6. As Jehovah’s Fellow and Equal. Zec 13:7; Php 2:6.

7. As Jehovah of Hosts. Isa 6:1-3; Joh 12:41; Isa 8:13,14; 1Pe 2:8.

8. As Jehovah, the Shepherd. Isa 40:11; Heb 13:20.

9. As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created. Pr 16:4; Col 1:16.

10. As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant. Mal 3:1; Mr 1:2; Lu 2:27.

11. Invoked as Jehovah. Joe 2:32; Ac 2:21; 1Co 1:2.

12. As the Eternal God and Creator. Ps 102:24-27; Heb 1:8,10-12.

13. As the mighty God. Isa 9:6.

14. As the Great God and Saviour. Ho 1:7; Tit 2:13.

15. As God over all. Ps 45:6,7; Ro 9:5.

16. As the true God. Jer 10:10; 1Jo 5:20.

17. As God the Word. Joh 1:1.

18. As God, the judge. Ec 12:14; 1Co 4:5; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1.

19. As Emmanuel. Isa 7:14; Mt 1:23.

20. As King of kings and Lord of lords. Da 10:17; Re 1:5; 17:14.

21. As the Holy One. 1Sa 2:2; Ac 3:14.

22. As the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:47.

23. As Lord of the Sabbath. Ge 2:3; Mt 12:8.

24. As Lord of all. Ac 10:36; Ro 10:11-13.

25. As Son of God. Mt 26:63-67.

26. As the Only-begotten Son of the Father. Joh 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9.

27. His blood is called the blood of God. Ac 20:28.

28. As one with the Father. Joh 10:30,38; 12:45; 14:7-10; 17:10.

29. As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father. Joh 14:16; 15:26.

30. As entitled to equal honour with the Father. Joh 5:23.

31. As Owner of all things, equally with the Father. Joh 16:15.

32. As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father. Joh 5:17.

33. As the Source of grace, equally with the Father. 1Th 3:11; 2Th 2:16,17.

34. As unsearchable, equally with the Father. Pr 30:4; Mt 11:27.

35. As Creator of all things. Isa 40:28; Joh 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

36. As Supporter and Preserver of all things. Ne 9:6; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3.

37. As possessed of the fulness of the God head. Col 2:9; Heb 1:3.

38. As raising the dead. Joh 5:21; 6:40,54.

39. As raising himself from the dead. Joh 2:19,21; 10:18.

40. As Eternal. Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2; Joh 1:1; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8-10; Re 1:8.

41. As Omnipresent. Mt 18:20; 28:20; Joh 3:13.

42. As Omnipotent. Ps 45:3; Php 3:21; Re 1:8.

43. As Omniscient. Joh 16:30; 21:17.

44. As discerning the thoughts of the heart. 1Ki 8:39; Lu 5:22; Eze 11:5; Joh 2:24,25; Re 2:23.

45. As unchangeable. Mal 3:6; Heb 1:12; 13:8.

46. As having power to forgive sins. Col 3:13; Mr 2:7,10.

47. As Giver of pastors to the Church. Jer 3:15; Eph 4:11-13.

48. As Husband of the Church. Isa 54:5; Eph 5:25-32; Isa 62:5; Re 21:2,9.

49. As the object of divine worship. Ac 7:59; 2Co 12:8,9; Heb 1:6; Re 5:12.

50. As the object of faith. Ps 2:12; 1Pe 2:6; Jer 17:5,7; Joh 14:1.

51. As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself. Re 5:9; Tit 2:14.

52. As God, he presents the Church to himself. Eph 5:27; Jude 1:24,25.

53. Saints live to him as God. Ro 6:11; Ga 2:19; 2Co 5:15.

54. Acknowledged by his Apostles. Joh 20:28.

55. Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints. Ge 17:1; 48:15,16; 32:24-30; Ho 12:3-5; Jdj 6:22-24; 13:21,22; Job 19:25-27.

Torrey, R. (2001). The new topical text book: A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Bible Software.

[Dr. Waite]

I was referring to the empty space. Gerry has now edited the empty space.

[Dr. Waite]

The doctrine of Christ is that his Father is the "only true God". John 17:3.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." II John 9-11

[Gibs]

This one verse pretty well encompasses all 55 of those posted above,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

That one says about all that needs be said if it can be seen!

I notice it doesn't state anything about the ONE being three!

The Father (1) who is Spirit (2) and the Son (3) are the one Spirit, one Substance. Jesus the Man is another person with the fullness of the Father in Him.

There is no trinity of Gods about that!

To worship the Son is to worship The Father and to worship the Father is to worship the Son as the Father is fully in Him.

This fullness in Christ must remain until what the Father sent out from Himself to do is finally done!.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Then,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Father is all in all again!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.