joeb Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 As I've read the posts from the anti-Trinitarians here my mind goes to the 29th chapter of GC, The Origins of Evil, as it was Lucifer's grand plan to reduce the power and glory of the Son, and to take His place. I see the exact same principle in the anti-Trinity arguments. I don't mean to insult anyone, but to me the similarities are striking. Lucifer wanted to be the Creator, and in these arguments the Son of God is not our Creator. Lucifer was a created being, and in these arguments Christ is not the everlasting God with no beginning and no end, but a created being.... I see the Great Controversy being acted out here in plain sight by those who would most emphatically deny they are taking the devil's position. Honest men not realizing what they are doing. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Members phkrause Posted February 1, 2013 Members Posted February 1, 2013 Good points joeb, Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Gibs Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Yes PK Yahweh of Hosts was the creator, Yahweh the Father in the beginning Possessed Him of Himself in the very beginning of His way to do the whole of making a visible creation as all things were invisible. Only He God the Father could do this. Yahweh of Hosts was not born, or created or formed. He is the extension of the Father Himself. Only God could create and be equal to or above the law. So it had to be that the Redeemer must be Himself sent forth to do it all. Don't you folks know how trinity came into Adventism? It is trintarianism that ends up having no Deity in Christ.! Only the Father is Deity and so if He wasn't the Father extended to us He would not be Deity. You have failed to read 1 Cor 15:24-28 His Redeemer must be the go between Himself and guilty man whom is His foreknowledge knew would fall to sin and rebellion.. He made of Himself our Mediator. None other could it be. He made of Himself a way we could come to Him. There is no other way. Now tell me if there is a God beside Yahweh tell me his name. If he be another god he cannot have the name Yahweh. Jesus as we know Him as, Mary was to call her manchild Jesus is also the indwelling of Yahweh. And so He is Yahshua or Yahweh Messiah. Or Emmanuel, God with us! There is no God besides Yahweh. If there were there would be immediate war! Over and over I've given texts to prove to you that God was in Christ. Christ is not another God but He is the one and only true God in the body prepared for Him to dwell in! A trinity of gods absolutely has no grounds in the Word of God. Again, the Holy Spirit is what God is, not another god, The God, the Father was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. No two or three Gods are involved. My Redeemer Jesus Christ, Yahshua, is Deity as the only Deity there is in Him! Who is the Deity in your redeemer? What is his name. It must be Yahweh! Who is the God with you as the Comforter? Mine is Yahweh Messiah! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Dr. Waite Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Originally Posted By: Gibs The Deity, the Father, expresses Himself by Spirit as that is what He is. He came to us in Jesus Christ in Spirit and then Christ made mediator then can dwell in us by the same Spirit. Jesus Christ possessed the Deity of the Father and when it is completed what He is sent forth of the Father to complete, it is returned then to the Father. Read carefully 1 Cor. 15:24-28 and notice when all is said and done the Father is ALL IN ALL finally again. That should light a little glimmer of light I do believe. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. The Father was the God in Jesus, the Father is the Spirit, and of course, the Father is the Father - the same person operating in 3 modes, pure and simple, right? The antitrinitarian monotheistic modalism was a heresy that the early church had to contend with. I see that it is still alive today! Was Jesus Christ a monotheist? see John 17:3 Did Jesus Christ teach that the "only true God" is one person or three persons? See John 17:3 Was Jesus Christ a Jew? See Matthew 1:1-17 and John 4:9 At the time Christ was here on earth were Jews monotheists? See John 4:21-22 Did Jesus Christ teach that the Jews know who or what they worship? See John 4:22 Quote grw
Moderators Gerr Posted February 2, 2013 Moderators Posted February 2, 2013 ‎ESV | ‎Dt 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." "God" is the Hebrew "elohim" which is plural - all named YHWH. Quote
Dr. Waite Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 ‎ESV | ‎Dt 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." "God" is the Hebrew "elohim" which is plural - all named YHWH. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim, when referring to God is grammatically singular, and takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible. When the Hebrew Bible uses elohim not in reference to God, it is plural (for example, Exodus 20:3). Other scholars interpret the -im ending as an expression of majesty (pluralis majestatis) or excellence (pluralis excellentiae), expressing high dignity or greatness: compare with the similar use of plurals of ba`al (master) and adon (lord). For these reasons many Trinitarians cite the apparent plurality of elohim as evidence for the basic Trinitarian doctrine of the Trinity. This was a traditional position but modern Christian theologians now largely accept that this is an exegetical fallacy. Theologians who dispute this claim, cite the hypothesis that plurals of majesty came about in more modern times. Richard Toporoski, a classics scholar, asserts that plurals of majesty first appeared in the reign of Diocletian (284-305 CE)1. Indeed, Gesenius states in his book Hebrew Grammar 2 the following: The Jewish grammarians call such plurals … plur. virium or virtutum; later grammarians call them plur. excellentiae, magnitudinis, or plur. maiestaticus. This last name may have been suggested by the we used by kings when speaking of themselves (compare 1 Maccabees 10:19 and 11:31); and the plural used by God in Genesis 1:26 and 11:7; Isaiah 6:8 has been incorrectly explained in this way). It is, however, either communicative (including the attendant angels: so at all events in Isaiah 6:8 and Genesis 3:22), or according to others, an indication of the fullness of power and might implied. It is best explained as a plural of self-deliberation. The use of the plural as a form of respectful address is quite foreign to Hebrew. The plural form ending in -im can also be understood as denoting abstraction, as in the Hebrew words chayyim ("life") or betulim ("virginity"). If understood this way, Elohim means "divinity" or "deity". The word chayyim is similarly syntactically singular when used as a name but syntactically plural otherwise. Quote grw
Ted Oplinger Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Dr. Waite... John 17:3 must be read in context with verse 5. Together, these verse signal a far different message than you're implying. Matthew 1:1-7 must also be read in context with John 1:1-14. It was Deity who became united with human race through the Jewish line, fulfilling to promise this same Deity made to Abraham ~1500 years earlier. Jewish thought on "monotheism" is a far different cry from what the Western mind conceives it to be. Jesus is quoting the prophetic fulfillment and the Gospel mission through the Jews. Further, Christ's statements there must also be taken in context with Deuteronomy 8:3 - the plural God is One Lord. If the Jews knew who and what they worshiped...how did they manage to reject God's given Redeemer? Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Enabled Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Quote: If the Jews knew who and what they worshiped...how did they manage to reject God's given Redeemer? The same way Lucifer did, through pride, the evidence before them was greater than the evidence before Pharaoh yet both rejected the redeemer of Israel. "My people parish for a lack of knowledge." They knew he was to come out of Bethlehem but all they knew was about Nazareth (spiritual pride above their brethren blinded them), they were ignorant of the words of the wise men who believed the prophet Daniel. Note the Wise men did what they would not, they went and found the Christ child. We can fall in the same pit here if we are not watchful unto prayer. We can do the same here in forbidding others to approach the throne: "Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted." YI, July 7, 1898 par 2. Have a great Sabbath Quote
Enabled Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Quote: Lucifer was a created being, and in these arguments Christ is not the everlasting God with no beginning and no end, but a created being.... Maybe Joeb you would be so kind as to explain why you and many others I have noted view that to be begotten implies created. I don't see the reasoning as I begat 5 yet I am the creator of none. They are of the same substance as I and all that I have is theirs things material as well as my DNA all by way of inheritance. I can neither understand how it is so, any more than I can understand how the Father brought forth a Son in his image. But believe I am asked to do by faith and by and by if I am faithful all shall be revealed unto me. Any time you would take to answer this would be appreciated, it would help me understand others thinking more clearly. I have never believed Christ to be other than the divine Son of God yet I don't subscribe to a triumvirate of Divinity. Happy Sabbath Quote
Dr. Waite Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Dr. Waite... John 17:3 must be read in context with verse 5. Together, these verse signal a far different message than you're implying. Matthew 1:1-7 must also be read in context with John 1:1-14. It was Deity who became united with human race through the Jewish line, fulfilling to promise this same Deity made to Abraham ~1500 years earlier. Jewish thought on "monotheism" is a far different cry from what the Western mind conceives it to be. Jesus is quoting the prophetic fulfillment and the Gospel mission through the Jews. Further, Christ's statements there must also be taken in context with Deuteronomy 8:3 - the plural God is One Lord. If the Jews knew who and what they worshiped...how did they manage to reject God's given Redeemer? Blessings, So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"?? Quote grw
Moderators Gerr Posted February 2, 2013 Moderators Posted February 2, 2013 So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"?? Jesus most definitely was a monotheist. He laid His divinity aside and came as a man. As a man He worshiped God as any man should. Quote
Gibs Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Ted, you had asked Dr Waite above, "If the Jews knew who and what they worshiped...how did they manage to reject God's given Redeemer?" I would give you this, not all the Jews rejected Him and knew not what they worshipped. It took awhile for even the believing Jews to awake to it. The ones who did reject Him did have it right, that there is one and only one God, even the ones who received Him didn't right away see. Remember Philip hadn't yet. We have the same today, not all know whom they are worshipping in worship to Him! Again it is the very few! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Dr. Waite Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Ted, you had asked Dr Waite above, "If the Jews knew who and what they worshiped...how did they manage to reject God's given Redeemer?" I would give you this, not all the Jews rejected Him and knew not what they worshipped. It took awhile for even the believing Jews to awake to it. The ones who did reject Him did have it right, that there is one and only one God, even the ones who received Him didn't right away see. Remember Philip hadn't yet. We have the same today, not all know whom they are worshipping in worship to Him! Again it is the very few! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Good answer I cannot find anywhere in my Bible where it states that Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, rejected the Jewish religion because that religion taught monotheism. Quote grw
Dr. Waite Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 I have had a few people tell me recently that to believe in the Trinity is to believe in the anti-Christ because it comes from the Catholics. So, what about this and why was it that even Ellen White did not believe in the Trinity in her very early years? In 1893, Ellen White believed and taught that the "Lord is that Spirit". See Signs of the Times, July 10, 1893 Necessity of Contemplating Heavenly Things where Ellen White quotes 2 Corinthians 3:17 and refers to the "Lord" as Jesus Christ. The trinity doctrine states that God is the Father and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit and the Father is NOT the Son and is NOT the Holy Spirit and the Son is NOT the Father and is NOT the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father and is NOT the Son. However, Ellen White states that the Lord Jesus Christ is that Spirit. If she later in life accepted the trinity doctrine as the leaders of the SDA Church teach, did she ever correct the statement she made in 1893? Quote grw
epaminondas Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Quote: There is not a shadow of doubt but that our Redeemer was the Father extended for our Salvation. Whao, brother. What did you smoke? Must have been powerful stuff. Lucy in the sky with diamonds! Right on, man. Cool, man. Way out, man. Quote
M. T. Cross Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 So OzarkWoman. After 257 replies, mostly of people bickering and trying to look smarter than the other guy, do you feel any more informed? Have any of the 10 paragraph long posts where people have twisted scripture to fit their preferred view on the issue actually helped you? Here is my advice, and since I have no horse in this race it might be the best advice you get. You have read your bible. You have lived a life that without any doubt has given you insight and wisdom. If you have come to the conclusion that The Trinity is in fact what there is in your beliefs deity system, then you go with that. If you happen to be wrong, I doubt that your God will hold that against you if he is worth the worship you give him. Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger Dr. Waite... John 17:3 must be read in context with verse 5. Together, these verse signal a far different message than you're implying. Matthew 1:1-7 must also be read in context with John 1:1-14. It was Deity who became united with human race through the Jewish line, fulfilling to promise this same Deity made to Abraham ~1500 years earlier. Jewish thought on "monotheism" is a far different cry from what the Western mind conceives it to be. Jesus is quoting the prophetic fulfillment and the Gospel mission through the Jews. Further, Christ's statements there must also be taken in context with Deuteronomy 8:3 - the plural God is One Lord. If the Jews knew who and what they worshiped...how did they manage to reject God's given Redeemer? Blessings, So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"?? Dr. Waite - don't be so obtuse...and do not try to put words in my mouth I did not say. Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
JoeMo Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Right on MT! Does it matter what other people think God is? You gotta go with your convictions. We need to respect others convictions; but we must be true to our own. That being said, I think we all need to reserve the right to be wrong; and the right to change our minds at any time when evidence and logic overwhelm our current world view. Spirituality isn't as cut-and-dry as math or physics. It's pretty fuzzy territory. Quote
M. T. Cross Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Right on MT! Does it matter what other people think God is? You gotta go with your convictions. We need to respect others convictions; but we must be true to our own. That being said, I think we all need to reserve the right to be wrong; and the right to change our minds at any time when evidence and logic overwhelm our current world view. Spirituality isn't as cut-and-dry as math or physics. It's pretty fuzzy territory. Exactly. I don't get this tallywacker smacking contests. A discussion indeed. But in the end no-one EVER seems to convince the other person. So other than a good work out for your fingers from the typing, what is the point in these long drawn out battles? But more over - I think that 90% of this thread has lost sight of the fact that someone asked a question and was seeking some help, not asking to have dogma rammed down her throat. Quote
epaminondas Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Quote: Lucifer was a created being, and in these arguments Christ is not the everlasting God with no beginning and no end, but a created being.... Maybe Joeb you would be so kind as to explain why you and many others I have noted view that to be begotten implies created. I don't see the reasoning as I begat 5 yet I am the creator of none. They are of the same substance as I and all that I have is theirs things material as well as my DNA all by way of inheritance. I can neither understand how it is so, any more than I can understand how the Father brought forth a Son in his image. But believe I am asked to do by faith and by and by if I am faithful all shall be revealed unto me. Any time you would take to answer this would be appreciated, it would help me understand others thinking more clearly. I have never believed Christ to be other than the divine Son of God yet I don't subscribe to a triumvirate of Divinity. Happy Sabbath As you explain it, you are responsible for the existence of your kids. They did not exist before you "begot" them. In fact, it is impossible for you, or anyone else, to beget anyone already in existence. This all makes sense. Extending biological taxonomy to God can't be done because we have no evidence that He is of a life form similar to Earthly life forms. Without evidence it is always wrong to come to any conclusion. BTW, your kids have not more than 50% of your DNA. The rest comes from your wife. Depending on how you define the word create, you can be seen in some way to have had a hand (not really a hand) in the creation of your kids. But this is semantics. Now here's how the trinitarians "reason:" Jesus existed in heaven, then, Mary's pregnancy was initiated with the Father "begetting" Jesus. Then Jesus was born. One of the Mormon fathers, I think Brigham Young, actually claimed God had sex with Mary as it was the only way anyone could be born. He didn't know about in vitro fertilization or artificial insemination. Just goes to show where lack of knowledge can get one. There is not one plain statement in the Bible explicitly declaring a trinity, except in the sense that there are the Father, the Son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself plainly stated that the Father is "the only true God" and he (Jesus) was Jesus Christ sent by the Father. Also, there's the 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 thing and the 1/3 = 1 thing, which we all know to be nonsense. Why they would reject the clear statements and choose the obscure ones and support such obvious nonsense as in the above paragraph, I don't know. Extreme denseness comes to mind. Quote
epaminondas Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Quote: He is to reign till all is under His feet, that is now done and so the vestment of the Deity of the Father comes back to Him. No Redeemer is ever be be needed for all eternity. He is ALL in ALL once again after many ages. Deep man, really deep. You must have seen the girl with kaleidoscope eyes and the rocking horse people eating marshmallow pies. Jesus and the Father in some way becoming one. It just blows the mind, man. Who is this conglomerate, then, brother? Jesus, the Father, someone else, Faje, Jefa? Way out, man. Quote
epaminondas Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Quote: So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"?? Yep, that's about what they do, but also don't do. In a world where 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1/3 = 1 there is no logic and nothing is too weird or nonsensical to believe. Quote
epaminondas Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Quote: Spirituality isn't as cut-and-dry as math or physics. It's pretty fuzzy territory. That would make God a God of confusion. Math and physics come from God, it was only discovered by men. The relationships between the lengths of a triangle with one 90 degree angle existed long before Pythagoras discovered them. Quote
epaminondas Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Quote: It is even more obtuse to ignore John 1:1-14, and John 17:5. Nowhere does it say Jesus did not exist at some point. Yes, Jesus existed before the planet Earth. Yes, he had glory with God before the Earth existed. That didn't stop him (Jesus) saying the Father is the "only true God." Quote: ACV: Colossians Chapter 1 [15] who is an image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. "firstborn of all creation", "most exalted of all creation", "cleverest of all creation", all place Jesus firmly among the created. If you have a pack of hunting dogs and say "Spot is the best of all my pack," Spot is clearly one of your pack. Your neighbour, with a pack of his own, won't be able to say that of Spot. The neighbour can say "Spot is better THAN all my pack. Even if you say "Spot is leader over all my pack," Spot is still part of the pack. Your neighbour can't say that about Spot and his pack. The simplest explanation is mostly the right one. Quote
epaminondas Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Quote: If Christ were a created being, the angels could/would not be worshiping Him, Heb 1:6, Rev 22:9. Why not? If God tells them to worship Jesus, they'll do so. Quote
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