The Trinity?

[Gail]

If Christ is not God in the highest sense and from all eternity He can not be the Saviour of the world. And if the Holy Spirit is not God in the highest sense than who or what is He? a mere impersonal essence???!!

Not one of us can explain the doctrine of one God in Three Persons. We can only accept it by faith.

Period.

I agree here. How can any mortal explain the mystery of Who and what God is? We can discuss what has been revealed, as sky has said before, but I'm not seeing much admission of the mystery of God's nature.

Mysteries are okay! Who are we to think that God has to explain everything to our satisfaction? Acknowledging our finite grasp, to me, brings out an awe that God deserves.

[joeb]

I agree here. How can any mortal explain the mystery of Who and what God is? We can discuss what has been revealed, as sky has said before, but I'm not seeing much admission of the mystery of God's nature.

Mysteries are okay! Who are we to think that God has to explain everything to our satisfaction? Acknowledging our finite grasp, to me, brings out an awe that God deserves.

We are agreed. It's pretty arrogant of any finite human being to think they can totally understand an infinite God. We can accept what has been revealed, but even that sometimes leaves us in awe because it's just simply beyond our ken.

[Gibs]

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It has been made crystal clear I must say.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It has been made crystal clear I must say.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I'd say things are crystal clear too, but I do not see how you come to your conclusions. Much of what you've quoted to me has been taken completely out of context and when read with the surrounding verses says something much different than what you say it does.

But, like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree. We agree on a lot of things, but on this issue, the nature of Christ, we are at polar opposites.

[Gibs]

Joeb, the only way Jesus could not have had our fallen sinful nature is for Mary His mother not to be of the seed of David.

One would have to prove "immaculate" conception! It can't be done! As a matter of fact the only one was Christ and maybe Enoch, who walked immaculate in fallen sinful flesh.

Jesus did it as Enoch, He only walked with God and never with man or Satan and his.

At the age of accountability, He told His mother and Joeseph, I must be about My Fathers business. Not Joseph but His Father in Heaven.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Joeb, the only way Jesus could not have had our fallen sinful nature is for Mary His mother not to be of the seed of David.

One would have to prove "immaculate" conception! It can't be done! As a matter of fact the only one was Christ and maybe Enoch, who walked immaculate in fallen sinful flesh.

Jesus did it as Enoch, He only walked with God and never with man or Satan and his.

At the age of accountability, He told His mother and Joeseph, I must be about My Fathers business. Not Joseph but His Father in Heaven.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Like I said elsewhere, Gibs. I'm not going to play dueling quotes with you. I've given you plenty of quotes to support my position and shown how you cannot harmonize your position with all of Ellen White's statements on the nature of Christ. You haven't even tried to harmonize your position with those quotes, you've just ignored the info I've given you so I'm not going to go down that road anymore with you.

The only reason I'm even answering you is because to ignore you is rude, and I like you even though we disagree.

[Gibs]

Here is some EGW tells us He took our "fallen nature", and then some where she states He took our "sinful nature".

Man alive, that is the reason for Him coming in a body of flesh, to become one of us, and then to overcome as one of us from where we are to be our example and to show it could be done with His imparted Divine Nature then in us.

That dear ones is the WAY He made and the PLAN that would rescue man if he would but comply. The sad thing is, few are and will comply, even though the yoke is easy and the burden light!

Let us now hear some words of EGW,

These words of confirmation were given to inspire faith in those who witnessed the scene, and to strengthen the Saviour for His mission. Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon Himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal. {DA 112.3}

Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal.--The Desire of Ages, p. 112. {7ABC 453.5}

Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Special Instruction Relating to the Review and Herald Office, and the Work in Battle Creek, May 26, 1896, p. 13. {7ABC 453.6}

He [Paul] directs the mind first to the position which Christ occupied in heaven, in the bosom of His Father; he reveals Him afterward as laying off His glory, voluntarily subjecting Himself to all the humbling conditions of man's nature, assuming the responsibilities of a servant, and becoming obedient unto death, and that death the most ignominious and revolting, the most shameful, the most agonizing--the death of the cross.-- Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 458. {7ABC 453.7}

Christ's life of humiliation should be a lesson to all who desire to exalt themselves above their fellow men. Though he had no taint of sin upon his character, yet he condescended to connect our fallen human nature with his divinity. By thus taking humanity, he honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision he has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature. {PH080 13.1}

Christ assumed our fallen nature, and was subject to every temptation to which man is subject.--Ms 80, 1903, p. 12. {17MR 29.4}

Christ became one with the human family--bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. . . . He pledged Himself to endure all the temptations that man must endure, that He might know how to succor those who are tempted.--Ms 102, 1903, p. 7. {17MR 29.5}

The majesty of heaven stepped down from His royal throne, gave up His authority as Commander in the heavenly courts, laid aside His kingly robe and crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, that He might take on Himself the weakness of human nature. This He did that He might give men an example of true humility. {17MR 29.6}

Only by living a sinless life while clad in the garb of humanity, could Christ, as man's Substitute and Surety, bear the burden of the sin of a fallen world. He was to suffer, being tempted in all points upon which fallen men are tempted, that by His own experience He might become acquainted with the temptation of humanity, and know how to succor those who are most severely tempted.--Ms 107, 1903, p. 5. {17MR 29.7}

Christ asks for our love. Does He not deserve it? Has not He given us instruction at every step? He says, "Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." He bore the cross of self-denial and self-sacrifice. He passed over the ground where Adam fell. Our first parents were placed in Eden, and surrounded with everything that would lead them to obey God. Christ assumed our fallen nature, and was subject to every temptation to which man is subject. Even in His childhood He was often tempted. Through life He remained unyielding to every inducement to commit sin. When in His youth His associates would try to lead Him to do wrong, He would begin to sing some sweet melody, and the first thing they knew they were uniting with Him in singing the song. They caught His spirit, and the enemy was defeated. Ah, my friends, Christ is the Chiefest among ten thousand. Praise the name of the Lord! {2SAT 235.1}

Now our sinful nature,

Christ says, My sheep hear My voice, and they follow Me away from the byways of sin. As Christ worked, so you are to work. In tenderness and love seek to lead the erring to the right way. This will call for great patience and forbearance, and for the constant manifestation of the forgiving love of Christ. Daily the Saviour's compassion must be revealed. The example He has left must be followed. He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

He took upon his sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted.--Medical Ministry, p. 181. {7ABC 450.5}

He came down to our level,

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God.--The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1896. {7ABC 452.6}

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In his own character he displayed to the world the character of God. He pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence. By his words, his influence, and his example, he made men feel that it was possible for them to return to their loyalty and be reinstated in God's favor. He led them to see that if they repented, if their characters were transformed after the divine similitude, they would win immortality. {RH, December 15, 1896 par. 7}

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to redeem for man that which by disobedience Adam had lost, for himself and for the world. In his own character Jesus manifested to the world the character of God; he pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was of pure, disinterested benevolence. {RH, August 22, 1907 par. 1}

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which by disobedience Adam had lost, for himself and for the world. In His own character Jesus manifested to the world the character of God; He pleased not Himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence. {ST, July 30, 1902 par. 1}

Those are wonderful statements of His great love to us! How can we not love Him with all our hearts and souls?

He makes me glad not sad or mad.

Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Joeb, the only way Jesus could not have had our fallen sinful nature is for Mary His mother not to be of the seed of David.

When you say He took or sinful nature when He became flesh, do you mean that when He was born, He already had in Himself the desire to commit adultery, steal, and bear false witness?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

When you say He took or sinful nature when He became flesh, do you mean that when He was born, He already had in Himself the desire to commit adultery, steal, and bear false witness?

I'm not trying to upstage joeb; but I didn't read him as saying Jesus had the "desire" to sin; but He had the ability to sin. Unarguably, Adam and Eve had unfallen natures; yet they obviously had both the ability and the propensity to sin. If sinning was so easy for them, how much easier would it have been for Jesus if He had a fallen nature? If Jesus had an unfallen nature, he still could have sinned, just like Adam and Ever did. I'm glad He didn't sin - that would have sucked for us!

[joeb]

Quote:

When you say He took or sinful nature when He became flesh, do you mean that when He was born, He already had in Himself the desire to commit adultery, steal, and bear false witness?

I'm not trying to upstage joeb; but I didn't read him as saying Jesus had the "desire" to sin; but He had the ability to sin. Unarguably, Adam and Eve had unfallen natures; yet they obviously had both the ability and the propensity to sin. If sinning was so easy for them, how much easier would it have been for Jesus if He had a fallen nature? If Jesus had an unfallen nature, he still could have sinned, just like Adam and Ever did. I'm glad He didn't sin - that would have sucked for us!

You aren't upstaging me because I won't be replying to Gibs. I've tried discussing this in detail with him and he just ignores all evidence he doesn't like and makes no effort to harmonize all the information available into a cogent position. That means the discussion just degrades into "dueling quotes" and that doesn't get anyone anywhere.... A couple of times on that merry-go-round is enough for me.

[joeb]

JoeMo,

If you would like to see what I believe on the issue download ebook, SDABC vol 7a from the EGW Estate website. It contains 3 appendixes: Christ's Place in the Godhead, Christ's Nature During the Incarnation, and The Atonement. If you read them you will come away with a good understanding of Ellen White's position on all three issues, and see how Gib's distorts her position. Her statements in these 3 appendixes are so plain they cannot be misinterpreted.

[Gibs]

I wonder if since you will not believe Jesus took on Himself our fallen and sinful nature that you must believe we can not be overcomers of sinning in this life, that He had an advantage over what is ours with His imparted Divine Nature in us.

If that is the case please read this, by Sister White,

"Christ came to the earth, taking humanity, and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement.--The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898. {7ABC 446.3}

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

You must see this, as Jesus said it, it is the overcomer not hurt of the second death!

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Sister White,

"There is hope for every one of us, but only in one way—by fastening ourselves to Christ and exerting every energy to attain to the perfection of His character. This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin, and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages sinners to believe that God will save them while they continue in sin and know it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {CTr 81.2}

Here is a very important 2 paragraph read,

" Then my eyes were taken from the glory, and I was pointed to the remnant on the earth. The angel said to them, "Will ye shun the seven last plagues? Will ye go to glory and enjoy all that God has prepared for those who love Him and are willing to suffer for His sake? If so, ye must die that ye may live. Get ready, get ready, get ready. Ye must have a greater preparation than ye now have, for the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Sacrifice all to God. Lay all upon His altar--self, property, and all, a living sacrifice. It will take all to enter glory. Lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where no thief can approach or rust corrupt. Ye must be partakers of Christ's sufferings here if ye would be partakers with Him of His glory hereafter." {EW 66.2}

Heaven will be cheap enough, if we obtain it through suffering. We must deny self all along the way, die to self daily, let Jesus alone appear, and keep His glory continually in view. I saw that those who of late have embraced the truth would have to know what it is to suffer for Christ's sake, that they would have trials to pass through that would be keen and cutting, in order that they may be purified and fitted through suffering to receive the seal of the living God, pass through the time of trouble, see the King in His beauty, and dwell in the presence of God and of pure, holy angels. {EW 67.1}

We are very, very close now and the call is Get Ready, Get Ready!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

joeb,

Thanks for the info. I am already familiar with EGW's take on the nature and work of Christ. I'm also aware of Gib's general "take" on theology. I respect his opinions (although I don't agree with them), because He is consistent and, from what little I know practices what he preaches.

I'm not as concerned with doctrinal purity as I am with intimate relationship. I think loving the Father and Son above all else; and accepting the lavish love and grace that they pour out on us trumps doctrine every time. the Godhead will meet us wherever we are; and guide us into all truth. Some are just further "along the road" than others.

[epaminondas]

Empty Cross said:

Quote:

Here is my advice, and since I have no horse in this race it might be the best advice you get. You have read your bible.

Let me add a bit to this. It's really simple.

First, ask the right questions. As we're dealing with the trinity, questions like, who is our God, did Jesus have anything to say on who is our God, did Jesus have a God, did Jesus ever make a straight claim to being God (saying in effect, I am God), what did Jesus say about his hierarchical relationship to the Father, are there any clear statements about Jesus being equal to the Father?

Then, be severe in what you accept as answers. If something is nonsense - like 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 - then don't accept it. If something is unclear, leave it aside. John 1:1 for example says "the Word was with God and the Word was God" in most translations. If that can be true, I can be with you and be you. Of course, a look at the original clears this up. If something is a 100% clear statement about some situation, accept it.

I'll give a few sample answers:

Who is our God?

Quote:

NETfree: I Corinthians 8:6. yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.

What did Jesus say about who is God?

Quote:

NETfree: John 17:3. Now this is eternal life - that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

Did Jesus have a God?

Quote:

NETfree: John 20:17. Jesus replied, "Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

What did Jesus say about himself compared to the Father?

Quote:

NETfree: John 14:28. You heard me say to you, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

This is only a small sample of very clear statements in the Bible completely contrary to the trinitarian dogma. Now ask yourself, are there statements as clear in favour of the trinitarian dogma in the Bible?

If you still decide to accept the trinitarian dogma, what will you do with all the many statements in the Bible clearly against the trinitarian dogma? Take a black felt tip pen and black them out?

[Gerr]

I'm not trying to upstage joeb; but I didn't read him as saying Jesus had the "desire" to sin; but He had the ability to sin. Unarguably, Adam and Eve had unfallen natures; yet they obviously had both the ability and the propensity to sin.

Careful there, JoeMo.

pro•pen•si•ty \prə-ˈpen(t)-sə-tē\ noun

plural -ties 1570 : an often intense natural inclination or preference synonym see LEANING - Webster

Propensity to sin IS a condition of the fallen nature. A & E could not have been created with unfallen natures and at the same time already had the "prepensity" to sin.

[Gerr]

Let me add a bit to this. It's really simple.

Yeah, it really is simple!

Originally Posted By: epam

First, ask the right questions. As we're dealing with the trinity, questions like, who is our God, did Jesus have anything to say on who is our God, did Jesus have a God, did Jesus ever make a straight claim to being God (saying in effect, I am God), what did Jesus say about his hierarchical relationship to the Father, are there any clear statements about Jesus being equal to the Father?

Then, be severe in what you accept as answers. If something is nonsense - like 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 - then don't accept it.

Maybe your sign is wrong. Maybe it should be 1x1x1=1. After all, multiplication is just another form of addition.

[Gerr]

First, ask the right questions.

I'll give a few sample answers:

Who is our God?

NETfree: I Corinthians 8:6. yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.

ESV | ‎2 Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Quote:

What did Jesus say about who is God?

Look at that verse again. "And" is a conjunction, which "joins elements of a sentence which are of the same rank or function" (Webster). means - in addition to. That means, "You" (the Father) AND Jesus Christ are of the SAME elements and therefore on equal footing! They are both "the only true God!!!"

Quote:

Did Jesus have a God?

The Word who was/is God became flesh (Jn 1:14). He laid His divinity aside (Phil 2:6-8); therefore as man He worshiped God.

Quote:

What did Jesus say about himself compared to the Father?

Having laid His divinity aside, yeah, He could truly say that. But He also said, "Before Abraham was, 'I AM.' Jn 8:58. That's JEHOVAH, the LORD, the God of the OT.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

I agree here. How can any mortal explain the mystery of Who and what God is? We can discuss what has been revealed, as sky has said before, but I'm not seeing much admission of the mystery of God's nature.

But what is clearly nonsensical has no merit. Read the origin of the trinity to see where it all comes from.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Having laid His divinity aside, yeah, He could truly say that. But He also said, "Before Abraham was, 'I AM.' Jn 8:58. That's JEHOVAH, the LORD, the God of the OT.

The I am thing has been done to death. It doesn't hold up. Read all about I Am to see more about that.

And how do you get around the clear statements I mentioned and many others, besides?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Look at that verse again. "And" is a conjunction, which "joins elements of a sentence which are of the same rank or function" (Webster). means - in addition to. That means, "You" (the Father) AND Jesus Christ are of the SAME elements and therefore on equal footing! They are both "the only true God!!!"

... Word order is important. If Jesus wanted to say he himself was truly God, together with the Father, he could not have found a worse way of doing it. Jesus had plenty of time to clearly state something as important as his own godhood, if he wanted to do so.

[phkrause]

Excellent posts Gerry

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

This is Gibs's blob theory - a blob of something like plasma which extends and divides into two or three (why not 373?) and later coalesce again into one. Maybe it's a god blob, a glob. Gibs will be happy to see that you support him.

Gibs has one glob that divides into up to three gods at will which come together (makes me think of the Beatles song, Come Together) again at will. I wonder if the three globs have different wills when apart. Do they feel like individuals or fractions of entities? Almost like Odo, the shape shifter in Deep Space Nine who rejoined the Great Link in the end. Odo was an individual, but never felt completely whole on his own. You have three gods in one, like the household oil, or one god in three. You just can't decide which, or maybe they're the same. You do have fertile minds.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

ASV: II Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

Somebody should tell Jesus that he's a god, too. Such an important thing. He should have come out clear and straight and have said it in unequivocal words.

Here you have the "and" conjunction. If no article is used, then the two entities joined by "and" are taken to be one and the same, like Gerry understands it. If, however, an article (the or a) is used, like in Gerry's quote, for either of the entities joined by the "and" we are talking of two entities. The two entities in this case are {the righteousness (which is dative - says what the faith is in) of our (note that the our here is plural in Greek, signifying at least two things belong to us) God (which is genitive - says who the righteousness belongs to)} and {[the righteousness] of [our] (indicated because, as mentioned, the our is plural) (1)saviour (2)Jesus (3)Christ(all three genitive, indicating that the righteousness belongs to Jesus, too} - these are what we have faith in. * * * But, to be fair, there are many translations not using an article with either "God" or "Jesus." * * * So, there are only two possibilities:

• Peter made a mistake
• The trinitarians were at it again, lying, cheating, muddling things up

Strangely enough, neither the translations without articles nor the ACV are correct, although the ACV transmits the message of the original Greek without distorting it. The original Greek precedes the word theou (god - in the genitive declension here) with the word tou, which is used 2358 times in the New Testament, in by far the most cases translated as "of the" when followed the the genitive declension of the noun. It really means "the." Read about the use of the word tou in the New Testament

Therefore, by far the strongest case can be made for "Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ to those who equally precious with us having obtained faith, through [the] righteousness of the God of us and of (Savior, Jesus Christ):" This is very close to literal. Clearly, two separate entities are involved.

So, once again the devious trinitarians (even more devious than the Sunday people, but mostly one and the same) have used underhandedness to advance their case. Such is the foundation of the trinitarian dogma. Anyone with no emotional stake in the affair and a good logical mind will see that the facts are overwhelmingly against the trinitarian dogma. But who cares about facts?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

I agree here. How can any mortal explain the mystery of Who and what God is?

Why the great love for inexplicable mysteries? Because it allows one to accept any nonsense, just as long as it's labeled a mystery, and you dearly love nonsense? Do you want a God of confusion? Do you hate logic, fact and clarity?

There are many clear, factual fully understandable statements in the Bible that make nonsense of the trinitarian dogma. Do you hate that?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Who does the New Testament credit the creation of man to? Not the Father, but the aspect of Deity who became Incarnate - Jesus.

So, Jesus is the creator of all, he was with Moses at the burning bush, he led the Israelites out of Egypt and many more. Tell me, what did the Father do, then?