The Trinity?

[Gerr]

NETfree: John 17:3. Now this is eternal life - that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

My conclusion: the Father is the only true God, like Jesus said.

I am surprised that someone with such superior intelligence should miss the conjunction "AND" in the text.

Originally Posted By: epa

There is absolutely no doubt, there is a very much stronger case to be made against the trinity concept than for it.

Absolutely no doubt? Ahem. Why then so many doubt your view?

[Gibs]

Gerry read my post above your comment to epaminondas, we posted together.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Well, you didn't read my posts well, Jesus Christ was not another God but God the Father is in Him, He was the one and only God manifest in the flesh.

And did you read these?

"The Word was WITH God, [TWO beings, not the one & the same] and the Word was God," Jn 1:1.

ESV | ‎Heb 1:8 "But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," - 2 DIFFERENT beings.

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

Right on.

sky

[Gerr]

Gerry read my post above your comment to epaminondas, we posted together.

I've read your posts. "The Father in Him," "proceeded from the Father," "vestments" - they make no sense. When the sentence says "The Word was WITH God," that's talking about TWO DISTINCT beings! When the author of Hebrews says, "God, your God has anointed you..." he is talking about TWO DISTINCT beings. When the Father declares, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," it is talking about TWO DISTINCT beings!And the Son has existed from ALL eternity!

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Gerry read my post above your comment to epaminondas, we posted together.

I've read your posts. "The Father in Him," "proceeded from the Father," "vestments" - they make no sense. When the sentence says "The Word was WITH God," that's talking about TWO DISTINCT beings! When the author of Hebrews says, "God, your God has anointed you..." he is talking about TWO DISTINCT beings. When the Father declares, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," it is talking about TWO DISTINCT beings!And the Son has existed from ALL eternity!

It is not possible that these verses be controverted. They can only be ignored or explained away.

sky

[Tom Wetmore]

Ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies made to destroy the character of the opposition rather than the argument posed. Since you are so very fluent in being abrasive and slinging mud at the "trinitarians", that tells me your arguments are nothing more than the same nit-picking the Jews did to Christ. You want to believe what you want; you want to believe someone else's belief is stupid. That's pretty much your game. Unfortunately, the extent of your discussion seems to be declaring other people stupid, then nit-picking when your are called out.

* * *

Moderator Note:

Thanks to Ted for drawing my attention to the problem. (I don't see everything..) I have edited out the egregious ad hominem comment that started this exchange.

I affirm and agree with Ted's observations about ad hominem comments. But I will add a firm exclamation point to those by reiterating that this is the one offense that is most likely to result in moderator action around here. It is absolutely unacceptable. And any of you are unclear on what ad hominem means look it up and take it firmly to heart.

Keep all comments directed only at the ideas and comments on the topic. The people discussing the topic are not the topic.

Enough said.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Gerry read my post above your comment to epaminondas, we posted together.

I've read your posts. "The Father in Him," "proceeded from the Father," "vestments" - they make no sense. When the sentence says "The Word was WITH God," that's talking about TWO DISTINCT beings! When the author of Hebrews says, "God, your God has anointed you..." he is talking about TWO DISTINCT beings. When the Father declares, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," it is talking about TWO DISTINCT beings!And the Son has existed from ALL eternity!

Yes because Jesus the man born of Mary is the person the Father came to dwell in!

But not another God however, the one and only God there is and ever will be was in Him reconcilling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19.

Now tell me who do you find the God that was in Him to be?

His proceeding and coming forth of the Father makes all the sense in the world. It is the only solution to seeing the truth that Jesus could also proclaim I am the first.

This old hillbilly knows there can only one first, means before any other!

Don't you see, the Father was first, Proverbs 8:22,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Yes dear ones, one substance! Possessed means extension, procure.

EGW had it nailed down, " The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Again, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

And back to the comments that Ted made, so long or I would do a quote.

There is no trinity, proof,

The Holy Spirit is not another personage, but is what Jesus tells us God is including Himself, read, please,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He had to come to us so that we would not be consummed and He made that possible by extending Himself to make a "ladder" between Himself and guilty man. Jesus is that ladder and we appproach the Father through Him.

When we pray we do so in Jesus name, because He is the Way the Father made.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One God and He is not triune. He comes to us by Spirit and that is mostly through Christ.

I worship the Father in worshipping Christ and that is by Spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Also many do not hold the same view of trinity, as you may hold. I've run onto different variances.

3 co equal co existing Gods agree as one etc.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Yes because Jesus the man born of Mary is the person the Father came to dwell in!

But not another God however, the one and only God there is and ever will be was in Him reconcilling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19.

Now tell me who do you find the God that was in Him to be?

God was in Christ because Christ Himself is God. He is "God with us." In Christ's body lives ALL the FULLNESS of Deity.

[Gibs]

The Man Jesus was a born being but the Father came in the man, He the Father was covered with Humanity.

The Father is the God in Christ, He told us,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

There is no way of getting around it, that it is the Father that is in Christ. Not another God!

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Father, the Word and Holy Spirit are one and the same. The Father communicates by Spirit as that is what He is and through and by His Word, the three ways are all by Spirit, Himself.

The Father is in Christ by His Spirit and will dwell there until it is completed He sent out to be done. Read 1 Cor 15:24-28

Verse 28 when it is all completed the Father becomes ALL IN ALL again.

Those verses hold profound meaning!

Jesus has no more need to reign no more as now no Redeemer is to ever be needed again through all eternity.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

And back to the comments that Ted made, so long or I would do a quote.

[phkrause]

The Man Jesus was a born being but the Father came in the man,

So your saying there was no virgin birth? Jesus had no divinity? He didn't tell certain people in the NT that he was the I Am of the OT? etc., etc., etc.?

[Gibs]

Ted, I won't do long quotes, waste of cyber space.

Yes Ted, He sure was God in the flesh, His Father was fully in Him, In His Redeemer all power of Himself before Bethlehem assigned to do all Creation and of Hosts, this being before Bethlehem, then He came in Marys babe and she was to name Him Jesus.

For sure He was Emmanuel, God the Father with us in the flesh of the man Jesus!

No Ted I've stated over and over the Deity in Christ isn't born, created or formed!

For sure to worship the Father is to worship the Son and visa versa.

Due 6:4 only deals with the Father and His Redeemer He extended of Himself and they are one, one and the same substance! This is not impossibe with God, He is Spirit. The Redeemer He sent forth of Himself to do a great job.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus speaks as one of us because He also too was one of us.

The Holy Spirit Ted is what our Father is, Jesus I am sure isn't lying here,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

No way Ted do I hold to Jesus being a created being. The man the Father come to dwell in was born and the only God ever formed or ever will be was fully in Him, all power was His to use except for overcoming from where we must. He had to overcome from where we are and not as God the Father in Him.

Jesus Came to us with His and our Father extended in Him for sure and no doubt about it.

I and my Father are one He tells us, He tells philip, you've seen me you've seen the Father.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus in you is the Father in you as that is who is in Jesus, read,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Yes Ted, He sure was God in the flesh, His Father was fully in Him, In His Redeemer all power of Himself before Bethlehem assigned to do all Creation and of Hosts, this being before Bethlehem, then He came in Marys babe and she was to name Him Jesus.

For sure He was Emmanuel, God the Father with us in the flesh of the man Jesus!

No Ted I've stated over and over the Deity in Christ isn't born, created or formed!

[Gerr]

Yes because Jesus the man born of Mary is the person the Father came to dwell in!

But, Gibs, it was the Word who had existed throughout eternity past that became flesh. It was not that a man named Jesus was conceived and the Father came and indwelt Him! Let me ask you - is the Word & the Father the same person?

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Now tell me who do you find the God that was in Him to be?

In the same way that Christ, the Father, & the HS are in us! As His representatives, God is in us trying to reconcile the world to Himself the same way He was trying to do in Christ.

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His proceeding and coming forth of the Father makes all the sense in the world. It is the only solution to seeing the truth that Jesus could also proclaim I am the first.

I don't know how to make it any clearer when John says, "the Word (one person) was WITH God (another person) and the Word was God." Two Beings who are both God. Then the author of Hebrews says, "But of the Son (one person), He (another person - the Father) says, you throne, O God, is forever and ever." There, as clear as day to me - God the Father calling the Son "God". And if I understand you correctly, the only reason the Father can call Him God is because the God pre- & post-incarnate Christ was none other than God the Father Himself! Now, to me, that's as fuzzy as you can get!

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This old hillbilly knows there can only one first, means before any other!

Are you saying this "old hillbilly" can't learn new tricks?

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Don't you see, the Father was first, Proverbs 8:22,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

They both claim to be the first and the last! The Father says, "I am alpha & omega," Rev 1:8. The Son says, "I am alpha & omega," Rev 22:13. The HS could very say the same thing because and they would all be correct because they have all existed from eternity.

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Yes dear ones, one substance! Possessed means extension, procure.

pos•sess \pə-ˈzes also -ˈses\ verb transitive

[Middle English, from Middle French possesser to have possession of, take possession of, from Latin possessus, past participle of possidēre, from potis able, having the power + sedēre to sit — more at POTENT, SIT] 14th century

1 a : to have and hold as property : OWN

b : to have as an attribute, knowledge, or skill

2 a : to take into one’s possession

b : to enter into and control firmly : DOMINATE 〈was possessed by demons〉

c : to bring or cause to fall under the influence, possession, or control of some emotional or intellectual response or reaction 〈melancholy possesses her〉

3 a obsolete : to instate as owner

b : to make the owner or holder — used in pass construction to indicate simple possession 〈possessed of riches〉 〈possessed of knowledge and experience〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

You won't find "extension" as part of the meaning of "possess", either in MW or in the original Hebrew.

Contrary to what you are claiming, this verse actually affirms the eternity of Christ. Was there ever a time the Father did not have Wisdom?

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EGW had it nailed down, " The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Nowhere is she saying the Father & the Son are one and the same persons!!! Here is that same statement again: " Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right." {FLB 46.5}

[epaminondas]

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I have yet to see a truly fleshed out thesis on the anti-trinitarian position that 1) fully addresses issues posed to it, 2) uses the Scripture in context, and 3) doesn't fall back to wild conspiracy theories which all make the fallacious claim God cannot keep the content of His Word true with the passage of time.

In fact, anti trinitarian arguments are clear and based on clear Biblical passages. These passages are not taken out of context.

Trinitarian arguments, on the contrary, are based on passages not addressing the point under consideration (the temptation doesn't say anything about Jesus or the Holy Spirit being God, yet you bring it up) or on deductions made from such passages or fanciful interpretations of vague passages. Bring me any passage that says in so many words that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods just like the Father. This would have been so important surely Jesus would not have left that to chance, but would have said so unequivocally, like he said the Father is the only true God. If Jesus is roped into the "only true God" description by the "and" one would have expected a different word order and a plural for the God. And what about 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, an absurdity?

[epaminondas]

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This one verse pretty well encompasses all 55 of those posted above,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And it's clearer, especially if one leaves of everything after "above all" as "through all and in you all" is not all that clear. I'm sure Paul didn't mean the New Age thing that everyone has a bit of God in him, but it can be seen that way. Like Peter said, Paul wasn't always all that clear.

[epaminondas]

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I do not profess to be a Greek scholar, but to which should "and Jesus Christ" be appended to?

Grouping will make this clear:

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ACV: John 17:3. And this is eternal life, that they should know (thee the only true God), and (Jesus Christ whom thou sent).

In other words:

Eternal life is that they should know:

1)thee the only true God

and

2)Jesus Christ whom thou sent

You won't agree that this makes sense, but others will.

[epaminondas]

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Ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies made to destroy the character of the opposition rather than the argument posed.

Point me to one logical fallacy in any of my posts.

[epaminondas]

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The Father is the God in Christ, He told us,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Again, this makes me think of Deep Space Nine. Certain members of inhabitants of one planet, the Trills, were chosen to have a symbiont implanted. They would then be two in one with the memories of the symbiont and his knowledge added to their own.

The simplest and most logical explanation is that Jesus and the Father see eye to eye on just about everything. This symbiont thing is taking it to extremes.

[epaminondas]

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I addressed this above. Explain to me rationally the statements Jesus made which do not give a true testimony if indeed your position is the correct one. You, Gibs, and Dr. Waite are the ones coming here making the challenges. Stand up, be men, and make your rational case why these statements make a true testimony when better words are clearer.

We have quoted clear passages from the Bible supporting our views. Do you want me to quote them again? You, on the other hand, have still not quoted one clear passage unambiguously saying in so many words that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God(s), just like the Father is God. In case you have problems with the s in parentheses, a simple example; Twinkles and Boots are cats - not Twinkles and Boots are cat.

And while you're at it, defend 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.

[Ted Oplinger]

Are you still at, epaminondas?

You may be of the perspective that "anti-trinitarian arguments are clear and based on clear Biblical passages; these passages are not taken out of context", but I and most others do not share your view. From what I have seen here by both you and Gibs, those passages you claim to support your perspective are indeed wrenched out of the meanings and contexts the original writers put them in. Further, you and Gibs came with the challenge, and you have not addressed any points lifted back in response.

You came to this site and this thread full of baseless accusations and insults, pronouncing with great vigor how the trinitarians could only reach their conclusions by magic, etc.

From this thread's progression, epaminondas, it has been your side of the discussion doing this very thing - pronouncing a verse by fiat to mean something the context says means something else. What you are doing is called projection - projecting upon others the very characteristics and actions you yourself are doing.

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Bring me any passage that says in so many words that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods just like the Father.

I went over this with Gibs. This is the same petulant demand the Jews are seen giving to Jesus over and over about Him being the Messiah long-awaited. Jesus quite firmly declined, because the evidence was already there. Likewise, epaminondas. I see no fruit in trying to explain points to one so given to a hostile perspective, when the evidence is already there.

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If Jesus is roped into the "only true God" description by the "and" one would have expected a different word order and a plural for the God.

You likely skipped over the addressing of this issue in this thread. That is precisely what I have pointed out occurs in the Hebrew of the Old Testament - and have done so repeatedly. That you and Gibs ignore the presence of such structure in your haste to put God into your little box is why I would deny your demand above - you wouldn't listen anyway, because you haven't listened up to this point already. Further, John317 has pointed out the flaws in your handling of the Greek structure in those texts you say supports your perspective - and you did not listen.

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This would have been so important surely Jesus would not have left that to chance, but would have said so unequivocally, like he said the Father is the only true God

And are you so certain about that? Just like whether or not He was the Messiah?

Christ, by his own mouth, claimed a pre-existent equality with the Father at several points in His ministry as Prophet - this, you categorically deny. He used language claiming this equality with the Father the Jews very clearly understood - but you choose to ignore and/or misrepresent.

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And what about 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, an absurdity?

I find 1+1+1 is not a correct thought perspective to approach the subject of Christ's nature with, in light of the Hebrew in the Old Testament. It comes from a Western attitude of segregate individualism - and has been dealt with earlier in the thread.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

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This one verse pretty well encompasses all 55 of those posted above,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And it's clearer, especially if one leaves of everything after "above all" as "through all and in you all" is not all that clear. I'm sure Paul didn't mean the New Age thing that everyone has a bit of God in him, but it can be seen that way. Like Peter said, Paul wasn't always all that clear.

And like Peter said, the unlearned and unstable were the ones having issues with taking Paul out of context.

You divorce Ephesians 4:6 from the previous 2 verses - verses 4-6 are Paul's complete thought on the passage. As I pointed out to Gibs - Paul lists Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in that passage.

The phrase "above all" is seen previously in Romans 11:36, where Paul is speaking in the context of Isaiah 40:12-14. Isaiah 12-14 is in the context of 3 consecutive prophecies by Isaiah, attributed to Christ in fulfillment.

Paul was not shy about attributing to Christ many Old Testament passages where the actions and claims are made by YHWH Elohim. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 -> Psalms 78:12-16 and Exodus 14:15-26 is one such prominent example.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

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Ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies made to destroy the character of the opposition rather than the argument posed.

Point me to one logical fallacy in any of my posts.

Spoken again in defiance. See post #608603, where the moderator edited out what he thought was an ad hominem logical fallacy attack. It appears much of your first post is now gone. I rest my case.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

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I addressed this above. Explain to me rationally the statements Jesus made which do not give a true testimony if indeed your position is the correct one. You, Gibs, and Dr. Waite are the ones coming here making the challenges. Stand up, be men, and make your rational case why these statements make a true testimony when better words are clearer.

We have quoted clear passages from the Bible supporting our views. Do you want me to quote them again?