The Trinity?

[Gibs]

Ted, I'm going to answer this one for you which is a page back and another of your mile long comment answers,

I said,

The man the Father come to dwell in was born and the only God ever formed or ever will be was fully in Him, all power was His to use except for overcoming from where we must. He had to overcome from where we are and not as God the Father in Him.

You said,

If the Father was the only God in Christ, and Jesus isn't born (ie, does not exist) until Bethlehem, then by logical conclusion you have just made Christ a created being. This was echoed by epaminondas in post #602200:

Yes dear Ted, If the God that is in Christ, I'm telling you now is not the Father in Him then He could not be God!

Why? Because dear ones, the Father, Yahweh King of Israel is the one and only God!

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Yes Ted our Redeemer was known as Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem and all creation, Hosts and all He was sent of the Father to do.

Then at Bethlehem Heaven was emptied of their great Commander and was put in Marys Babe born in a lowly manger, to be God the Father with us!

You surely see there is one and only one God to be in Him, Yahweh King of Israel.

Read again this verse, it settles it,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Don't you see the only God ever formed or ever will be is our Saviour!

So I'm saying to all, if you do not see that it is the Father, Yahweh in Christ, you are worshipping a god you know not his name.

The name of the God I worship in worshipping Jesus is Yahweh our Messiah, short for Yahshua!

Yes a union of fallen man and Yahweh is our Saviour and it is not robbery of the Father to worship Him as you are worshipping the Father, Yahweh Messiah.

Our Saviour had to be the Supreme Almighty God as none else could suffice! Only Yahweh himself is equal to or above the law and only He could make the Way, Christ Jesus we are to call him or Yahshua!

Ted and all this has gone on and on needlessly as all your questions are answered in my original post here and different parts I repeated many times back to different ones.

Yes all your questions are answered and some here know it. Yes there is two things in present day Christendom that is in the majority.

Extreme liberalism and the trinity doctrine. Both are wrong, All must be overcomers to take part in the first Resurrection, and there is no trinity

The Father is Spirit and He comes to us in Jesus Christ and by Spirit. He must be worshipped in Spirit and Truth as He is Spirit, and Truth, because error is not acceptable!

Don't feel bad, Philip had trouble seeing it was the Father in Christ also!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

If Jesus is roped into the "only true God" description by the "and" one would have expected a different word order and a plural for the God. And what about 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, an absurdity?

Using this same absurd literalistic mathematical formula, then the Bible's claim of, 1 (Adam) + 1 (Eve) = 1 is bogus; and that 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 (many believers) = 1 (Jn 17:11,22) is absurd also.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, I'm going to answer this one for you which is a page back and another of your mile long comment answers,

I said,

The man the Father come to dwell in was born and the only God ever formed or ever will be was fully in Him, all power was His to use except for overcoming from where we must. He had to overcome from where we are and not as God the Father in Him.

You said,

If the Father was the only God in Christ, and Jesus isn't born (ie, does not exist) until Bethlehem, then by logical conclusion you have just made Christ a created being. This was echoed by epaminondas in post #602200:

Yes dear Ted, If the God that is in Christ, I'm telling you now is not the Father in Him then He could not be God!

[Gibs]

Ted, I must state to you and I believe you know it to be true, the Deity in Christ has to be the Father in Him.

If it isn't the Father in Him He would not be God, but we know that He is. read,

Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

One is not three, and the Father, Holy Spirit and the Father in Christ are one and the same God, there is none else.

Of course we can see Jesus as another person but still one God is in Him, and so you do not have a trinity. He was the Father with us in a body of flesh.

He does His Fathers will and when He has completed His task the Deity is returned, the Father becomes ALL IN ALL again!

Jesus Christ was not another God, He was the Father manifest in the flesh of Jesus Christ.

It is plain and simple, nothing hard to see, no trinity in any way can be conjured up no matter how hard you try.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Gibs, my brother

Repeating the same talking points isn't going to do a thing for this discussion.

I must state back to you, that you know both Father and Son are God. You know They are the plural Elohim who is One. You know Christ is indeed Deity, and not a mere created shell of a being elevated to God-hood by the Father's in-dwelling.

How do I know this? Because you waffle between the trinitarian and anti-trinitarian theologies - you want to sound trinitarian without being trinitarian, but the anti-trinitarian theology just won't let you do that honestly.

I have never disputed the Father's Deity in Christ - do not be disingenuous. The Son, though, is Deity is as much Deity in His own right as is the Father. The Plan of Salvation required the Son to be selfless in everything - right down to submitting everything He was (including His Deity) to the Father. The Word who became flesh was God in the beginning, was with God since the beginning, and has always been God.

That Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, showing us the glory and light of the Father.

Jesus and the Father are YHWH Elohim - they are One YHWH. It was that way in the very beginning, by Christ's own words, and it will be forevermore.

Those are the definitive facts, Gibs, as I understand the Biblical Testimony to be regarding the Son of God.

I know Who I worship - YHWH Elohim is not a false God formed.

Blessings,

[epaminondas]

Quote:

pronouncing with great vigor how the trinitarians could only reach their conclusions by magic, etc.

Exactly. Let me explain the 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 thing to you. You say "1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god". You don't say "1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 trinity". Yes, one of anything + one of anything + one of anything can be one collection. But then the data types (integers, Strings, cows, cats) are different on the left and right sides of the equals sign. Poor Hose just can't get his head around this. For the trinitarian thing to work, the data types (god) should stay the same throughout. And we all know that 1 + 1 + 1 IS NOT 1. You might as well flap your arms and hope to fly as to successfully defend 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. You'll be laughed out of even a primary school class. You are attempting the impossible.

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I see no fruit in trying to explain points to one so given to a hostile perspective, when the evidence is already there.

Read what I said again. I did not ask you to explain anything. I asked you to quote a Biblical passage saying plainly that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are god just like the Father is God. If it's clear, it won't need explaining. Like this one:

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ACV: I Corinthians 8:6. yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

and this one:

Quote:

ACV: I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Jesus Christ,

Yet, you have not quoted me an equally clear passage that needs no explanation. Why is that? Is it maybe that because there is no such passage? All you ever say is that you have already explained that.

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Yet another red herring logical fallacy.

Now here is logic, in the form of a propositional statement. A propositional statement is two candidates for being facts joined by "if...then..." What follows the if is the candidate being tested and what follows the when is the test. The test must evaluate to true for the candidate to be tested to pass the test. Here goes:

If (the trinitarian dogma is true) then (1 + 1 + 1 = 1 is true.)

Now the evaluation: 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 is not true, therefore the trinitarian dogma is not true. Remember, poor Hose, the data type must stay consistent throughout the equation.

It doesn't matter what you do or say, you can't fault that.

Quote:

It appears much of your first post is now gone.

Yes, that's how trinitarians make their point. Delete that which is most damaging to them. In my minds ear I can hear gnashing of teeth. There must be a longing in certain quarters for bringing back burning at the stake.

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He was the "I AM". The Jews knew PRECISELY the identification Christ was making.

You have another candidate for godhood. The blind man, whom Jesus healed on the Sabbath, used words which were translated to exactly the same words (ego eimi) in Greek as the words which are ascribed to Jesus. Jesus spoke in Aramaic. His words were translated to Greek. These Greek words are then mapped to a Hebrew text in Exodus 3:14, which is a passage presenting great difficulties in translation. See this site. The Greek words have several legitimate translations in English. Yet the English translation is taken as a direct 1:1 mapping between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. Amazing. You trinitarians are grasping at straws.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Yes there is two things in present day Christendom that is in the majority.

Extreme liberalism and the trinity doctrine. Both are wrong, All must be overcomers to take part in the first Resurrection, and there is no trinity

And don't forget Sunday. By far the majority of Christians dumped the Sabbath in favour of Sunday, even the few denominations not believing in the trinity.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Christ never told the Jews outright He was the Messiah, despite their constant, incessant demands

Not so.

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NETfree: Mark Chapter 14

[61] But he was silent and did not answer. Again the high priest questioned him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

[62] "I am," said Jesus, "and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven."

So, we're still waiting for your equally clear quotes where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are declared gods, just like the Father.

[John317]

So, we're still waiting for your equally clear quotes where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are declared gods, just like the Father.

Acts 5:3-4

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Jude 1:20-21-- "But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; [21] keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life."

2 Cor. 13:14--"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Matthew 3:16-17-- "And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'"

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 15:28-- "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements..."

Acts 4:25-26-- who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

" 'Why did the Gentiles rage,

and the peoples plot in vain?

[26] The kings of the earth set themselves,

and the rulers were gathered together,

against the Lord and against his Anointed."

[Enabled]

Not sure how much weight the SOP has here but these are a few of the many places that she identifies the Holy Spirit as Christ's omnipresence. Considering the following in John 14:16 I believe she is right.

Quote:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: you but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you , and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you

Quote:

"Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent." 14 MR 23

"While Jesus ministers in the sanctuary above, He is still by His Spirit the minister of the church on earth. He is withdrawn from the eye of sense, but His parting promise is fulfilled, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. While He delegates His power to inferior ministers, His energizing presence is still with His church." DA 166

"Today no curious multitudes flock to the desert places to see and hear the Christ. His voice is not heard in the busy streets. No cry sounds from the wayside, "Jesus of Nazareth passeth by." Luke 18:37. Yet this word is true today. Christ walks unseen through our streets. With messages of mercy He comes to our homes. With all who are seeking to minister in His name, He waits to co-operate. He is in the midst of us, to heal and to bless, if we will receive Him." MH 107

"How few realize that Jesus, unseen, is walking by their side! How ashamed many would be to hear His voice speaking to them, and to know that He heard all their foolish, common talk!" TM 88

"Who, but Jesus Christ by His Spirit and divine power, guided the pens of the sacred historians that to the world might be presented the precious record of the sayings and works of Jesus Christ?" 3SM 137.I believe John 317 this is what is meant by Acts 4:25,26

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:57, 63). Christ is not here referring to His doctrine, but to His person, the divinity of His character." 1SM 249

Quote:

Matthew 3:16-17-- "And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'"

I believe John317 that you will find that there are only two here as E.G. says that the dove was " a fit emblem" of Christ and not a third being

Hope this helps

[Gustave]

I have had a few people tell me recently that to believe in the Trinity is to believe in the anti-Christ because it comes from the Catholics. So, what about this and why was it that even Ellen White did not believe in the Trinity in her very early years?

She ( Ellen White ) didn't believe in the Trinity in her final years...

...This is obvious for any who reads her books that understand Trinity 101.

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

So, we're still waiting for your equally clear quotes where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are declared gods, just like the Father.

Acts 5:3-4

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Jude 1:20-21-- "But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; [21] keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life."

2 Cor. 13:14--"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Matthew 3:16-17-- "And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'"

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 15:28-- "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements..."

Acts 4:25-26-- who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

" 'Why did the Gentiles rage,

and the peoples plot in vain?

[26] The kings of the earth set themselves,

and the rulers were gathered together,

against the Lord and against his Anointed."

[Gibs]

Ted, can't tell now but what you are agreeing with me that Jesus is God the Father with us, but you will not come out and square say it.

And that the Father is Spirit and so their is but one God, I see that is what you have come to finally say but out around and above robin hoods barn.

Hey I'm a square shooter, I make it straight out.

Well anyway, the main point is that one must see that it is the Father in Christ is why He is God.

Jesus was a born being, but God isn't, the Father in Him and a union was made that is declared a mystery. It is the Father in Him that is the God in Him

At the most you can have but two persons in the Godhead, Jesus the man and the Father, which is in Him.

Again, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You see one God isn't 2 or 3! There is just one of them. God is Yahweh, in Jesus, Yahshua!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Live4Him]

Quote:

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Note it is the Father calling Christ God.

[Gibs]

For sure Live4Him, He the son is of Himself, possessed in the beginning of Himself to be creator and Rdeemer, not another God but The Father extended that He could reach fallen man, otherwise, man would be consummed in His Presence.

Remember Jesus said,

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You can no more pluck them out of Jesus's hand than the Father's and then He tells us why!

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, can't tell now but what you are agreeing with me that Jesus is God the Father with us, but you will not come out and square say it.

And that the Father is Spirit and so their is but one God, I see that is what you have come to finally say but out around and above robin hoods barn.

Hey I'm a square shooter, I make it straight out.

Gibs, far from shooting straight, you also shoot blanks. I do not know how I can communicate more clearly that the logical conclusion of your theology is galaxies apart from mine. You are clearly mistaken in thinking a superficial agreement on a point or two gives your theology credibility.

Stating the Father indwelt Christ is not an accession to your theology. Jesus is the Elohim with us - the plural God who is ONE who is with us. That necessarily by definition means the Father is present there. From that point, we are completely in disagreement on the nature of Christ.

I contend Father/Son are ONE. I contend Father and Son are BOTH YHWH Elohim - One and the Same. I contend Jesus could say to Philip, "If you see Me, you have seen the Father" because both Son and the Father are the exact representation of each other.

I contend that Christ the Son and the Father have been together as ONE from eternity past - Christ is as much from the beginning as the Father. They are together ONE. The Son is no mere extension of the Father - He is the exact representation and substance as the Father.

You cannot conceive how the 2 - Father and Son - can be one, without denying the Deity of one. Yet, this is precisely what the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 6:4 states clearly - YHWH is a plural God, but that plural YHWH is ONE. The last time I checked, plural means, "more than one", so YHWH Elohim simply cannot be a single entity extending Himself. YHWH Elohim is at the minimum TWO YHWH Eloha; these TWO are ONE God. That is why I begin this subject at Deuteronomy 6:4 - YHWH Elohim, YHWH One: YHWH is the plural God, the plural YHWH is One.

Your theology destroys the integrity of the Hebrew there; in my opinion, your beginning premise is flawed from the very start in trying to make the plural Elohim into a mathematical singularity of one participant (Father only). The last time I checked, "plural" meant "more than one".

I contend that Jesus is the YHWH Elohim with us - Father and Son are both present in the man Jesus Christ. I contend the Son in the man Jesus Christ is as much YHWH as the Father, and is the very reason why Jesus could clearly communicate the exact representation of the Father to humanity.

I contend the Son in the man Jesus Christ submitted all He was - human and Deity together - to the Father's will. I contend Isaiah 9:6 names both the Father ("Eternal Father") and the Son ("Prince of Peace") as being the "Mighty God" joined to humanity in the birth of the man Jesus Christ.

Paul identifies as Jesus in Philippians 2:10 as being the YHWH Elohim who is speaking in Isaiah 45:21-23 - not the Father in Jesus. Paul identifies Christ (not the Father in Christ) as being the Rock of Israel in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 - the YHWH Elohim who led Israel out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea, and provided for Israel in the wilderness, as he quotes words and events both Psalms 78:12-16 and Exodus 14:15-26 in that passage.

I contend the demons and devils Jesus cast out recognized the Son by previous knowledge: they had intimate dealings with the Son in eons past, and called out the Son within Jesus Christ by name - not the Father.

I contend it is both Father and Son within the man Jesus Christ that made the Son's Divinity trusting in the Father's will the core issue of Matthew 3:17-Matthew 4:4 - the first temptation of Christ.

You cannot view any of those examples without creating a singularity of a Father participant only. You place an artificial limit on YHWH Elohim not found in the intent of the Scriptures - a limit I categorically reject.

I contend the plural Elohim, who is ONE, united with humanity in a perfect display of the character within YHWH Elohim - agape love within YHWH Elohim - then died the death for sin, no matter if any of the human race would be willing to accept or not.

A Singularity cannot demonstrate selfless love within itself - no matter how hard it tries. Your theology has no logical answer for that.

Blessings,

[Gail]

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A Singularity cannot demonstrate selfless love within itself - no matter how hard it tries.

Ty Gibson remarks that it is not even possible with 2. Three is the lowest number that perfect, unselfish love can exist in.

[Ted Oplinger]

Well anyway, the main point is that one must see that it is the Father in Christ is why He is God.

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

A Singularity cannot demonstrate selfless love within itself - no matter how hard it tries.

Ty Gibson remarks that it is not even possible with 2. Three is the lowest number that perfect, unselfish love can exist in.

I agree with that, Gail. The discussion of this thread has yet to even begin addressing this aspect of God.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

The Father is the optimum of Love, He first gave of Himself, then He gave His Wonderful Son of whicn He dwelt in fully and so gave Himself in Him and the Son the Prince born of Mary the extension of His love gave Himself also.

It was a great liability, Yah the Father could have lost His Son of Mary eternally and mankind would all have been lost.

Some believe Jesus could not have failed to overcome the world and Satan but that is false. He had to overcome from where we are taking no power but what we can have when we partake of the Way He has made.

Man must overcome on his own behalf using the power given him of Christ dwelling within. Christ in you is the same power Christ had to overcome.

Do any of us have any excuses to offer? I think not.

We are powerless unless He dwells within.

Christ in you is the same as the Father in you, comphrehend,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It is a false hood that we can not with Christ within overcome!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Ted,

Quote:

I contend Father/Son are ONE. I contend Father and Son are BOTH YHWH Elohim - One and the Same. I contend Jesus could say to Philip, "If you see Me, you have seen the Father" because both Son and the Father are the exact representation of each other.

I'm confused as to this statement. How can the Father and Son(Jesus Christ after the incarnation) be an exact representation of each other in all senses of the word, as you did not leave any other way to read the sentence?

The Father did not become human. Thus, I would posit that the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are distinct individuals who are one in purpose, motive, and character. Thus when Christ says that if we have seen Him, we have seen the Father, it is within the context of knowing how the Father (and the Holy Spirit) will react to any stimulus because we know the Son. Knowing WHO one of them is, is knowing WHO all of them are.

To me it is the only way things make any kind of sense given the statements of Christ and His incarnation.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted,

Quote:

I contend Father/Son are ONE. I contend Father and Son are BOTH YHWH Elohim - One and the Same. I contend Jesus could say to Philip, "If you see Me, you have seen the Father" because both Son and the Father are the exact representation of each other.

I'm confused as to this statement. How can the Father and Son(Jesus Christ after the incarnation) be an exact representation of each other in all senses of the word, as you did not leave any other way to read the sentence?

The Father did not become human. Thus, I would posit that the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are distinct individuals who are one in purpose, motive, and character. Thus when Christ says that if we have seen Him, we have seen the Father, it is within the context of knowing how the Father (and the Holy Spirit) will react to any stimulus because we know the Son. Knowing WHO one of them is, is knowing WHO all of them are.

To me it is the only way things make any kind of sense given the statements of Christ and His incarnation.

It was to make the point about Father and Son both being YHWH Elohim in the highest sense, Joeb.

Calvary cost YHWH Elohim something quite dear - in order to give us His Son, His Son had to give up His omnipresence with the Incarnation. The Son is now both fully human and fully God at once - and the fully God part is as much YHWH Elohim as the Father is.

It is the only way YHWH Elohim could bring a dead race back into life again - by connecting that race directly to YHWH Elohim.

No mere created being, however indwelt of the Father, could effect that connection to the Life-Giver.

Blessings,

[Enabled]

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A Singularity cannot demonstrate selfless love within itself - no matter how hard it tries.

I would agree that it can not demonstrate it without the presence of another, that is the obvious. But that it can't exist in Divinity apart from plurality is not stated in scripture nor obvious. Ty stating it nor your or I makes 2 or 3 true. Please enlighten me as I have heard this said before but don't see where it is founded or by whom. I see God brought forth creation to pour out his Love upon it. That he could only be loving (Agape) if there was at least another would appear to me to be a supposition. We especially in a fallen world are hard pressed to perceive anything about a divine everlasting without beginning God let alone proclaim character traits about said God under the same fallen mind set. After all apart from the cross can anyone truly expound Love. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Happy Sabbath

[epaminondas]

Quote:

A Singularity cannot demonstrate selfless love within itself - no matter how hard it tries.

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Ty Gibson remarks that it is not even possible with 2. Three is the lowest number that perfect, unselfish love can exist in.

When it comes to the Father, He could also experience love for the creation. Also, before the creation of the Universe, there was no time. Time is part of the Universe. So, whatever the Father created in the timeless context He existed in outside the Universe is not subject to descriptions of time, like "from the beginning." This in no way demands a trinity. It's like Herbert Armstrong not keeping in mind that the Jews did not use zero when working with numbers and coming up with the idea that Jesus had to be crucified on, I think, Thursday, to fulfill the rising on the third day, Sunday.

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One of the most persistent fallacies of humanity is that one can arrive at truth by speculation alone.

Robert H Thouless

Straight and Crooked Thinking

[epaminondas]

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A Singularity cannot demonstrate selfless love within itself - no matter how hard it tries.

I would agree that it can not demonstrate it without the presence of another, that is the obvious. But that it can't exist in Divinity apart from plurality is not stated in scripture nor obvious. Ty stating it nor your or I makes 2 or 3 true. Please enlighten me as I have heard this said before but don't see where it is founded or by whom. I see God brought forth creation to pour out his Love upon it. That he could only be loving (Agape) if there was at least another would appear to me to be a supposition. We especially in a fallen world are hard pressed to perceive anything about a divine everlasting without beginning God let alone proclaim character traits about said God under the same fallen mind set. After all apart from the cross can anyone truly expound Love. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Happy Sabbath

Amen! You're absolutely right. See my other response.