Members phkrause Posted February 8, 2013 Members Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: I agree here. How can any mortal explain the mystery of Who and what God is? Why the great love for inexplicable mysteries? Because it allows one to accept any nonsense, just as long as it's labeled a mystery, and you dearly love nonsense? Do you want a God of confusion? Do you hate logic, fact and clarity? There are many clear, factual fully understandable statements in the Bible that make nonsense of the trinitarian dogma. Do you hate that? I doubt she does! So do you hate the idea of a Trinity? Does it change who God is? Does it change the Truth? Does it change the 10 Commandments? Does it change how we are saved? Etc., etc. and etc! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted February 8, 2013 Members Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: Who does the New Testament credit the creation of man to? Not the Father, but the aspect of Deity who became Incarnate - Jesus. So, Jesus is the creator of all, he was with Moses at the burning bush, he led the Israelites out of Egypt and many more. Tell me, what did the Father do, then? I'm guessing you can show us our error here and what God the Father was doing? Again I ask! Who was God talking to when he said "Let us make man in "OUR" image? Lucifer maybe? No way, I say!! Some being we've not heard about yet????? Again the answer would or should be NO!!!! So I'll leave it here and you can tell us! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Ted Oplinger Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: ASV: II Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ: Somebody should tell Jesus that he's a god, too. Such an important thing. He should have come out clear and straight and have said it in unequivocal words. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Gibs Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 How could Jesus be Truly God if it isn't the Father in Him? He wasn't born of God the Father, He wasn't created by God the Father and NO other God was ever formed! He is the Father extended as His Redeemer whom He gave to us to be also our Redeemer. He is our connection from fallen earth to our Father in Heaven, the ladder by which we come to the throne of Grace! Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour There just is not another God but our Heavenly Father! Now if you are truly His,- - Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Ted Oplinger Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 How could Jesus be Truly God if it isn't the Father in Him? He wasn't born of God the Father, He wasn't created by God the Father and NO other God was ever formed! He is the Father extended as His Redeemer whom He gave to us to be also our Redeemer. He is our connection from fallen earth to our Father in Heaven, the ladder by which we come to the throne of Grace! Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour There just is not another God but our Heavenly Father! Now if you are truly His,- - Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Rather, answer me this, Gibs: How is Satan telling Jesus to prove His relationship to God by commanding stones into bread, a meaningful temptation in your theology? Blessings, Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Moderators Gerr Posted February 8, 2013 Moderators Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: Look at that verse again. "And" is a conjunction, which "joins elements of a sentence which are of the same rank or function" (Webster). means - in addition to. That means, "You" (the Father) AND Jesus Christ are of the SAME elements and therefore on equal footing! They are both "the only true God!!!" ... Word order is important. If Jesus wanted to say he himself was truly God, together with the Father, he could not have found a worse way of doing it. Jesus had plenty of time to clearly state something as important as his own godhood, if he wanted to do so. * * * Your responses that are full of insults speak volumes about the depth and weakness of your thinking and understanding!!! [Gerry, I agree. So consequently I have edited out the rudeness. - TW] Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 8, 2013 Moderators Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: The Word was with God,and the Word was God. This is Gibs's blob theory - a blob of something like plasma which extends and divides into two or three (why not 373?) and later coalesce again into one. Maybe it's a god blob, a glob. Gibs will be happy to see that you support him. Gibs & I have nothing in common with regards to the doctrine of the Trinity. And the quoted text above are not my words, they are the inspired words of Scripture. Whether you believe them or not is up to you. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 8, 2013 Moderators Posted February 8, 2013 How could Jesus be Truly God if it isn't the Father in Him? ESV | ‎Heb 1:8,9 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,.... therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5} What part of "distinct person" is difficult to understand? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 8, 2013 Moderators Posted February 8, 2013 Somebody should tell Jesus that he's a god, too. Such an important thing. He should have come out clear and straight and have said it in unequivocal words. Numerous scripture passages have been brought forth that clearly proves Jesus' divinity, but you refuse to see. Quote: Here you have the "and" conjunction. If no article is used, then the two entities joined by "and" are taken to be one and the same, like Gerry understands it. If, however, an article (the or a) is used, like in Gerry's quote, for either of the entities joined by the "and" we are talking of two entities. The two entities in this case are {the righteousness (which is dative - says what the faith is in) of our (note that the our here is plural in Greek, signifying at least two things belong to us) God (which is genitive - says who the righteousness belongs to)} and {[the righteousness] of [our] (indicated because, as mentioned, the our is plural) (1)saviour (2)Jesus (3)Christ(all three genitive, indicating that the righteousness belongs to Jesus, too} - these are what we have faith in. Gerry's way, which is not even understanding his own quote, would be against many clear statements in the Bible. But, to be fair, there are many translations not using an article with either "God" or "Jesus." Gerry was not smart enough to pick one of them. So, there are only two possibilities: Peter made a mistake The trinitarians were at it again, lying, cheating, muddling things up Strangely enough, neither the translations without articles nor the ACV are correct, although the ACV transmits the message of the original Greek without distorting it. The original Greek precedes the word theou (god - in the genitive declension here) with the word tou, which is used 2358 times in the New Testament, in by far the most cases translated as "of the" when followed the the genitive declension of the noun. It really means "the." Read about the use of the word tou in the New Testament Therefore, by far the strongest case can be made for "Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ to those who equally precious with us having obtained faith, through [the] righteousness of the God of us and of (Savior, Jesus Christ):" This is very close to literal. Clearly, two separate entities are involved. So, once again the devious trinitarians (even more devious than the Sunday people, but mostly one and the same) have used underhandedness to advance their case. Such is the foundation of the trinitarian dogma. Anyone with no emotional stake in the affair and a good logical mind will see that the facts are overwhelmingly against the trinitarian dogma. But who cares about facts? After all that lengthy explanation, although I'm no Greek scholar, here is the original: "ego theos kai soter Iesus Christos" Even as ignorant as I am, I see no definite article between kai and soter to make me think that "theos" and "soter Iesus Christos" are not one and the same. "The source of God’s saving righteousness is Jesus Christ. The Greek construction here is particularly interesting. It literally reads “the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (dikaiosynē tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou). The grammar clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is called “God” in this verse. The structure of the clause accords with the famous rule of G. Sharp, that when two singular nouns, which are not proper nouns, fall under the same article, they refer to the same entity. The phrase used here fits every part of this definition. If Peter wanted to distinguish Jesus Christ from the Father, he would have inserted an article before the noun “Savior.” The pronoun “our” also indicates that only one person is referred to here. Moreover, in four parallel texts “Lord and Savior” refers in every case to the same person, Jesus Christ (2 Pet 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18). The primary reason some scholars doubt this interpretation is that the New Testament writers rarely use “God” explicitly in reference to Jesus Christ. Nonetheless, in a number of texts Jesus Christ is surely called God (John 1:1, 18; 20:28; Rom 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8), though the intention is never to teach a form of modalism. To deny such a reading here would be to violate the clear sense of the grammar. Bigg rightly remarks, “Yet the first and sovereign duty of the commentator is to ascertain, and to guide himself by the grammatical sense.”20 The glory of Jesus Christ is emphasized as well at the conclusion of the letter in the doxology (3:18), so that the letter is bounded by the theme of Christ’s supremacy. Jesus Christ is both God and Savior. The term “Savior” often was used of divine rulers in the Caesar cult, but there is no evidence that Peter countered such views in the letter. Finally, Callan effectively argues that the attribution of “Lord” with reference to Jesus Christ implies his deity since the same title also refers to God." Schreiner, T. R. (2003). Vol. 37: 1, 2 Peter, Jude. The New American Commentary (286–287). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers. The expression, “God and our Saviour” is in a construction in the Greek text which demands that we translate, “our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ,” the expression thus showing that Jesus Christ is the Christian’s God Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English reader (2 Pe 1:1). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ appears to be a reference to Jesus alone, and so is important evidence for an early belief in the deity of Christ (cf. 1:11; 2:20; 3:18 and Tit. 2:13). Saviour as a title for Jesus appears mainly in the later writings of the NT, but was a regular emphasis in the early preaching of Peter (see Acts 4:12; 5:31). It is interesting that whereas in 1 Peter there are references to salvation (1:5, 9–10; 2:2) and being saved (3:20; 4:18), in this letter Peter concentrates on the Saviour. New Bible commentary: 21st century edition. 1994 (D. A. Carson, R. T. France, J. A. Motyer & G. J. Wenham, Ed.) (4th ed.) (2 Pe 1:1–2). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: Inter-Varsity Press. It requires little insight to see how the title “Saviour” applies to our Lord Jesus Christ. He is, indeed, the Great Physician who heals the heart from the sickness of sin. He is the victorious Conqueror who has defeated our enemies—sin, death, Satan, and hell—and is leading us in triumph (2 Cor. 2:14ff). He is “God and our Saviour” (2 Peter 1:1), “our Lord and Saviour” (2 Peter 1:11), and “the Lord and Saviour” (2 Peter 2:20). Wiersbe, W. W. (1996). The Bible exposition commentary (2 Pe 1:1). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books. Quote
JoeMo Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: Careful there, JoeMo. Propensity to sin IS a condition of the fallen nature. A & E could not have been created with unfallen natures and at the same time already had the "prepensity" to sin. I agree with your response, Dr. Gerry; and hereby retract my use of the word "propensity as far as either Jesus or Adam and Eve having a "propensity to sin. I was wrong. I still maintain that all 3 had the ability to sin. I also agree with someone above who basically asked "how does all this matter how we relate to God?" God or not, it's apparently OK to worship Jesus (He accepted worship). God or not, I will still pray to the Father through Him. God or not, Jesus will one day be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 8, 2013 Moderators Posted February 8, 2013 Agreed that they all had the freedom to sin if they so chose. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 8, 2013 Moderators Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: I agree here. How can any mortal explain the mystery of Who and what God is? Why the great love for inexplicable mysteries? Because it allows one to accept any nonsense, just as long as it's labeled a mystery, and you dearly love nonsense? Do you want a God of confusion? Do you hate logic, fact and clarity? There are many clear, factual fully understandable statements in the Bible that make nonsense of the trinitarian dogma. Do you hate that? Oh yeah, since you can understand and explain the mystery of how the earth hangs on nothing, and how light could be a particle and wave, there is nothing mysterious about the One who knows everything that created them? Yeah, right! Quote
joeb Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 Quote: Careful there, JoeMo. Propensity to sin IS a condition of the fallen nature. A & E could not have been created with unfallen natures and at the same time already had the "prepensity" to sin. I agree with your response, Dr. Gerry; and hereby retract my use of the word "propensity as far as either Jesus or Adam and Eve having a "propensity to sin. I was wrong. I still maintain that all 3 had the ability to sin. I also agree with someone above who basically asked "how does all this matter how we relate to God?" God or not, it's apparently OK to worship Jesus (He accepted worship). God or not, I will still pray to the Father through Him. God or not, Jesus will one day be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Ted Oplinger Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 Originally Posted By: Gibs How could Jesus be Truly God if it isn't the Father in Him? He wasn't born of God the Father, He wasn't created by God the Father and NO other God was ever formed! He is the Father extended as His Redeemer whom He gave to us to be also our Redeemer. He is our connection from fallen earth to our Father in Heaven, the ladder by which we come to the throne of Grace! Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour There just is not another God but our Heavenly Father! Now if you are truly His,- - Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Rather, answer me this, Gibs: How is Satan telling Jesus to prove His relationship to God by commanding stones into bread, a meaningful temptation in your theology? Blessings, bump to next page... Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Gibs Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 Rather, answer me this, Gibs: How is Satan telling Jesus to prove His relationship to God by commanding stones into bread, a meaningful temptation in your theology? Blessings, Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Members phkrause Posted February 8, 2013 Members Posted February 8, 2013 Rather, answer me this, Gibs: How is Satan telling Jesus to prove His relationship to God by commanding stones into bread, a meaningful temptation in your theology? Blessings, Great question Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
epaminondas Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Quote: So do you hate the idea of a Trinity? Does it change who God is? Does it change the Truth? Does it change the 10 Commandments? Does it change how we are saved? It's such a stupid idea it's not worthy of hate. I've also learned that hate destroys the hater, not the hated. I'm more amazed that such a stupid idea can find such wide acceptance. Seems to me PT Barnum was right about suckers. As for the other questions, the answer is no to all of them. I like the truth and like to see it accepted, whether it's flattering, in keeping with one's ideas, or not. Know the truth and the truth will set you free [of error]. Quote
Gibs Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. What God do you trinitarians worship in Christ if you can't see that it is the Father in Him. What is his name? Christ knew who God was and is, Yahweh and so that is the only one their is to be in Christ our Saviour. Yes you see scripture states "fully God" in Him a body as ours! Well who in the total of the universes is that God? I declare unto you, it is Yahweh King of Israel! And not the Israel of earth. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
JoeMo Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Yeah, Gibs, Suffice it to say that your revelation is not my revelation. Have an awesome Sabbath attending the church of your choice tomorrow. Quote
JoeMo Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Quote: It's such a stupid idea it's not worthy of hate. Well, I don't know if I'd go that far. It's a feasible concept reasonably deduced from scripture. Quote: I've also learned that hate destroys the hater, not the hated. Amen, brother! Good word! Quote
Enabled Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 JoeMo the web site doesn't seem to be able to find the ebook you indicated. I thought this would be handy, I own a copy but it is in storage. Could you provide a link. Happy Sabbath. Quote
epaminondas Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Quote: Well, I don't know if I'd go that far. It's a feasible concept reasonably deduced from scripture. Well, let's look at it. The concept says the word God refers to a, by necessity because it is made up of three entities, single collection. Now the members of this God collection are also individually God. First of all, this introduces confusion - the members of the collection are supposed to be the same as the collection. If you have father Smith, mother Smith and Jackie Smith making up the Smith family - the collection - then neither of them individually is the Smith family. This is clear and you can follow this. The very basic mistake here is that these people can't differentiate between a collection and a member of a collection. Because of this these people of necessity come up with absolute nonsense like 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1/3 = 1. This supports Richard Feynman's statement about the "general dopiness" of people who study the humanities. God created mathematics to ultimately describe His universe. Men only discovered it. To say that one can't explain the mysteries of God with human (it's not human, as said) mathematics is just a way to get past the dilemmas. It's invoking magic to explain away glaring errors. Do you think such a concept is feasible? Remember, it needs magic to fly. Secondly, there are many clear, unambiguous statements in the Bible disagreeing with the precepts of the trinity. I've mentioned some of them. If you want to, I can do so again. Thirdly, the trinity is nowhere clearly spelled out in the Bible. All support is from statements which can legitimately be translated in other ways which will take away any weak support they may afford the trinity. The comma Johanneum has even been smuggled into the Bible to support the trinity. You can read up about it. The only reason I can think of to explain the widespread support of the trinity is what PT Barnum said. If I quote him here I'm "rude and not nice." So, what do you think? Which way do the facts point? I know which way emotion points. Quote
Enabled Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 I saw this question on this thread once before: Quote: I'm guessing you can show us our error here and what God the Father was doing? Again I ask! Who was God talking to when he said "Let us make man in "OUR" image? and answered it as a general response from SOP. Here it is again. Quote: The Father and the Son engaged in the mighty, wondrous work they had contemplated, of creating the world. The earth came forth from the hand of the Creator exceedingly beautiful… Angels beheld and rejoiced at the wonderful and beautiful works of God. {1SP 24.1} After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God says to his Son, "Let us make man in our image." As Adam came forth from the hand of his Creator, he was of noble height, and of beautiful symmetry… This sinless pair wore no artificial garments. They were clothed with a covering of light and glory, such as the angels wear. While they lived in obedience to God, this circle of light enshrouded them. {1SP 24.2} Hope this helps clear up the question. Hope you don't mind my posting this instead of the one you addressed. There are a number of other quotes but these best represent the context. I do believe at this point Lucifer was trembling as he saw that the spirit of Christ moved over the waters and was being established as the one the Father said was his creator and also worthy of worship. The creation of this earth was just more evidence to the heavenly host, the other worlds, and Lucifer that Christ was indeed the only begotten of the Father before the existence of all creation, and there maker. Our Lord and our God without denial of the Almighty Father who appointed that it should be so. Happy Sabbath to all. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 9, 2013 Moderators Posted February 9, 2013 Quote: So do you hate the idea of a Trinity? Does it change who God is? Does it change the Truth? Does it change the 10 Commandments? Does it change how we are saved? It's such a stupid idea it's not worthy of hate. I've also learned that hate destroys the hater, not the hated. I'm more amazed that such a stupid idea can find such wide acceptance. Seems to me PT Barnum was right about suckers. As for the other questions, the answer is no to all of them. I like the truth and like to see it accepted, whether it's flattering, in keeping with one's ideas, or not. Know the truth and the truth will set you free [of error]. Soooo, just who are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that the Bible speaks of? Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Rather, answer me this, Gibs: How is Satan telling Jesus to prove His relationship to God by commanding stones into bread, a meaningful temptation in your theology? Blessings, //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Satan was trying hard to get Jesus to use His Divinity in Him to take more power than a man could have with His Divine Nature imparted to him. We cannot command stones into bread and in this situation if He had of done so Satan would have won over Him. He simply had to overcome Satan as a man has to and not as God. Christ in you and that overcoming power is yours! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
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