The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The "us" in Gen 1:26 cannot be just a royal "we", for the following reasons: 1) The God or "elohim" of Gen 1 is plural.

2) The third person in the Godhead is meantioned right there in Gen 1:2 - the Holy Spirit. So there are at least TWO persons in the creation story of Gen 1. If you add Jn 1:1-3 & Col 1:16 in which both say that "ALL things" were created by Jesus, then we KNOW that either Christ was one of the two persons or a third person in Gen 1.

Yes, you're right. The Bible explicitly mentions the Holy Spirit and God, bringing the count up to two. Later on the Bible also mentions Jesus being present, bringing the count up to three. The Holy Spirit is mentioned as hovering over the waters of the deep of the wild planet Earth. This is as far as we can go. Remember, time is an attribute of the Universe created with the Universe. There was a "time" when there was no time - a timeless context. In this context all words like before and after and forever become meaningless, like colours to a dog - if it's true that they can't see colours. This still doesn't stop Jesus from being created, maybe even before the Universe into this timeless context. That would make Jesus even "before" time. Jesus could then have a part in the rest of the creation of everything save God and himself. One cannot expect the primitives to have understood the mutability of time, so the Bible says nothing of it.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Yep, that's about what they do, but also don't do. In a world where 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1/3 = 1 there is no logic and nothing is too weird or nonsensical to believe.

Nevertheless, He is the one we will all one day have to answer for why our conclusions, despite the evidence we have chosen to ignore re: what He did when He came to this sewer of a world to insure that the likes of a world of continuous sinful humans might have something better for which to look forward.

"For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."John 3:16

AMP parenthesis brackets their's LHC

"For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],"Romans 1:20 AMP

Parenthesis brackets their's LHC

Jesus acts to defend His children, though some leave little to defend.

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."Matthew 23:15 NKJV

Sometimes we forget there is an enemy on this earth making desperate attempts to prove God is not Who He says He is.

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1 John 4:8 NKJV

God blesses!

[Gerr]

Quote:

If Christ were a created being, the angels could/would not be worshiping Him, Heb 1:6, Rev 22:9.

Why not? If God tells them to worship Jesus, they'll do so.

It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and himonly shall you serve," Mt 4:10; cf Rev 22:9

[Gerr]

Quote:

So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"??

Yep, that's about what they do, but also don't do. In a world where 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1/3 = 1 there is no logic and nothing is too weird or nonsensical to believe.

ESV | ‎Ge 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

ESV | ‎Mt 19:5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

ESV | ‎Eph 5:31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

ESV | ‎1 Co 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

ESV | ‎Jn 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,

ESV | ‎Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

ESV | ‎Ro 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

ESV | ‎1 Co 3:8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

Are these writers talking about math?

[Gerr]

Quote:

The "us" in Gen 1:26 cannot be just a royal "we", for the following reasons: 1) The God or "elohim" of Gen 1 is plural.

2) The third person in the Godhead is meantioned right there in Gen 1:2 - the Holy Spirit. So there are at least TWO persons in the creation story of Gen 1. If you add Jn 1:1-3 & Col 1:16 in which both say that "ALL things" were created by Jesus, then we KNOW that either Christ was one of the two persons or a third person in Gen 1.

Yes, you're right. The Bible explicitly mentions the Holy Spirit and God, bringing the count up to two. Later on the Bible also mentions Jesus being present, bringing the count up to three. The Holy Spirit is mentioned as hovering over the waters of the deep of the wild planet Earth. This is as far as we can go. Remember, time is an attribute of the Universe created with the Universe. There was a "time" when there was no time - a timeless context. In this context all words like before and after and forever become meaningless, like colours to a dog - if it's true that they can't see colours. This still doesn't stop Jesus from being created, maybe even before the Universe into this timeless context. That would make Jesus even "before" time. Jesus could then have a part in the rest of the creation of everything save God and himself. One cannot expect the primitives to have understood the mutability of time, so the Bible says nothing of it.

"All things" means ALL, not some things.

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," Heb 1:9. "Forever and ever" is not some finite time.

[Enabled]

Quote:

Lucifer was a created being, and in these arguments Christ is not the everlasting God with no beginning and no end, but a created being....

Maybe Joeb you would be so kind as to explain why you and many others I have noted view that to be begotten implies created.

I don't see the reasoning as I begat 5 yet I am the creator of none. They are of the same substance as I and all that I have is theirs things material, as well as my DNA all by way of inheritance. I can neither understand how it is so, any more than I can understand how the Father brought forth a Son in his image of His same substance. But believe I am asked to do so by faith and by and by if I am faithful all shall be revealed unto me. Any time you would take to answer this would be appreciated, it would help me understand others thinking more clearly. I have never believed Christ to be other than the divine Son of God yet I don't subscribe to a triumvirate of Divine headship.

Thank you. Not sure why this came up again in my edit window, maybe it was worth repeating with a small change as it is no longer Sabbath etc. It won't allow a delete so it stands.

[Dr. Waite]

I did not put words in your mouth. I asked a question. the question is this:

So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"??

[JoeMo]

epaminondas, call me dense but I don't uderstand your response to my previous post:

Quote:

That would make God a God of confusion. Math and physics come from God, it was only discovered by men.

Of course math and physics have been discovered by men. That makes them "cut-and-dry" facts universally acknowledged by all men educated in those disciplines. The principles behind spirituality have yet to be "discovered" and universally accepted - They are matters of faith, which involves a high degree of subjectivity. I ain't saying whether the subjectivity is good or bad - it's a fact. Because no one can (or ever will in the era) produce sufficiently documented experimental proof of the principles of spirituality, it will always be "warm and fuzzy". Why else would there be thousands of different sects in any of the main world's religions? Man is confused; but that doesn't make God a god of confusion. If anything, satan is the god of confusion. Unfortunately, he is also the rebellious spiritual prince of this planet until Jesus comes.

[Ted Oplinger]

I did not put words in your mouth. I asked a question. the question is this:

So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"??

You are setting up an either/or argument based on the false assumption the only arguments available are the one you are trying to attribute to me, vs the one you want to promote.

If the only way you can conceive the "Trinity" doctrine to be is the false choice you are proposing, then you are indeed putting words to people they have not said. If you'd like to re-phrase your question, please do.

Like others, it very much appears you are not willing to grant respect for another's perspective, particularly where we both use the same Scriptures to support our perspectives.

Blessings,

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

I did not put words in your mouth. I asked a question. the question is this:

So, are you teaching that Jesus Christ was NOT a monotheist and besides worshiping his Father, the only true God, he worshiped himself and a person called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"??

You are setting up an either/or argument based on the false assumption the only arguments available are the one you are trying to attribute to me, vs the one you want to promote.

If the only way you can conceive the "Trinity" doctrine to be is the false choice you are proposing, then you are indeed putting words to people they have not said. If you'd like to re-phrase your question, please do.

Like others, it very much appears you are not willing to grant respect for another's perspective, particularly where we both use the same Scriptures to support our perspectives.

Blessings,

Did Jesus Christ worship his Father, the only true God?

Did Jesus Christ worship "GOD THE SON"?

Did Jesus Christ worship "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"?

Did Jesus Christ worship a "GOD" who is a "Unity of three co-eternal persons, father, son and holy spirit"?

[epaminondas]

ESV | ‎Ge 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

ESV | ‎Mt 19:5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

ESV | ‎Eph 5:31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

ESV | ‎1 Co 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

ESV | ‎Jn 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,

ESV | ‎Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

ESV | ‎Ro 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

ESV | ‎1 Co 3:8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

Are these writers talking about math?

[epaminondas]

epaminondas, call me dense but I don't uderstand your response to my previous post:

Of course math and physics have been discovered by men. That makes them "cut-and-dry" facts universally acknowledged by all men educated in those disciplines. The principles behind spirituality have yet to be "discovered" and universally accepted - They are matters of faith, which involves a high degree of subjectivity. I ain't saying whether the subjectivity is good or bad - it's a fact. Because no one can (or ever will in the era) produce sufficiently documented experimental proof of the principles of spirituality, it will always be "warm and fuzzy". Why else would there be thousands of different sects in any of the main world's religions? Man is confused; but that doesn't make God a god of confusion. If anything, satan is the god of confusion. Unfortunately, he is also the rebellious spiritual prince of this planet until Jesus comes.

My point is that the drongos who have to take off their shoes to work with numbers bigger than ten are very hostile towards math and cold, hard facts. They often act as if math and natural laws have been created, as opposed to discovered, by a nasty kind of person (one who can count past ten without taking off his shoes and has often made them look foolish) and is not at all relevant when it comes to religion. Therefore, their religious concepts can violate God's mathematical principles (which these drongos regard as not from God at all) and don't have to make sense at all. I, on the other hand, say God keeps his own laws, including mathematical ones.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Yep, that's about what they do, but also don't do. In a world where 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1/3 = 1 there is no logic and nothing is too weird or nonsensical to believe.

Nevertheless, He is the one we will all one day have to answer for why our conclusions, despite the evidence we have chosen to ignore re: what He did when He came to this sewer of a world to insure that the likes of a world of continuous sinful humans might have something better for which to look forward.

"For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."John 3:16

AMP parenthesis brackets their's LHC

"For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],"Romans 1:20 AMP

Parenthesis brackets their's LHC

Jesus acts to defend His children, though some leave little to defend.

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."Matthew 23:15 NKJV

Sometimes we forget there is an enemy on this earth making desperate attempts to prove God is not Who He says He is.

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1 John 4:8 NKJV

God blesses!

What a COS! Nothing definite, just blah-blah-blah. Nothing relevant at all.

[epaminondas]

Don't be mistaken, Arius was a Protestant.

His opponents were in the majority and so wrote the history books.

Only natural that he's smeared as a heretic today.

But there's something wrong with drinking the majority Catholic position,

as we are warned in Revelation 14.

The Catholics were soooo wrong on the Sunday issue and many other issues, but they are spot on with the trinity issue, which they created at the council of Nicea in 325AD. We have a lot to learn from them.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

He laid His divinity aside and came as a man.

It's the position of the SDA, the Catholics and many others that Jesus was fully god and fully man at the same time. That means he prayed to himself.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

There is but ONE that is God and that is the Father ONLY, He is the Holy Spirit, He alone could be in Christ. In Christ the Father was with us covered with humanity, the body prepared Him.

But he did leave a part of himself behind in heaven when he came to the Earth as Jesus, right? So the part of him on Earth prayed to the part of him in heaven, right?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and himonly shall you serve," Mt 4:10; cf Rev 22:9

I looked at your quotes. They don't say Jesus is worshiped. Remember, the same word for god in Hebrews 1:9 is used here twice:

Quote:

NETfree: II Corinthians 4:4. among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.

Once for Satan and once for the real God. It's a word that can have more than one meaning. It's confusing, isn't it?

And what about:

Quote:

NETfree: I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,

and

Quote:

NETfree: I Corinthians 8:6. yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.

Much clearer than the blah-blah of the theologians, isn't it?

[Ted Oplinger]

Did Jesus Christ worship his Father, the only true God?

Did Jesus Christ worship "GOD THE SON"?

Did Jesus Christ worship "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"?

Did Jesus Christ worship a "GOD" who is a "Unity of three co-eternal persons, father, son and holy spirit"?

Is Jesus the personification Of God?

Is God agape love?

Would the Father driving Jesus to worship Him be in the spirit of agape love, or would Father then be seeking his own?

Further - why did Jesus accept the worship of men that even angels will not accept?

Do you reject the pre-existence of the One who became Christ?

When you decide to stop trying to talk past me, read some of the posts on the earlier pages, you will find your questions - and mine - have already been answered.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

He laid His divinity aside and came as a man.

It's the position of the SDA, the Catholics and many others that Jesus was fully god and fully man at the same time. That means he prayed to himself.

A couple of things, epaminondas:

1) Regardless of their many errors, the RCC does hold quite a few true doctrines. A counterfeit cannot work if it didn't look enough like the true to pass for it.

2) The Council of Nicea was prior to the Papacy attaining supremacy by over 200 years...just like the Sabbath-Sunday change. Just like the Sabbath-Sunday change, Rome co-opted leadership at the First Council of Nicea to prop up its authority over all over churches.

3) Arius did not have the majority of followers. They were a very loud minority.

4) Rome did not lead the opposition to Arius' arguments. Athanasius of the Alexandrian church did. Arius' support came mainly from the delegation of 22 bishops from around Nicomedia area

Finally - If you can find a Scripture that says being the God of agape love means He'd pray to Himself, I'll buy your silly statement.

Agape love precludes worship of self (your statement), or leading others to worship one's self (Father the only Deity in Jesus). 1 Corinthians is quite clear - Godly selfless love does not seek its own interests.

Godly agape love works only in the presence of a plurality, not a singularity.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

The majority usually is not the ones to follow and especially true these days when the whole of the Christian world is given strong deceptions, many of them from every angle!

Going with the FLOW may seem so easy and so much more company, but it misses that narrow way to Paradise!

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

The majority usually is not the ones to follow and especially true these days when the whole of the Christian world is given strong deceptions, many of them from every angle!

Going with the FLOW may seem so easy and so much more company, but it misses that narrow way to Paradise!

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Oy, Gibs! While the majority may not be the ones to follow, being in the minority is never proof one is speaking true the true testimony, either!

1 John 4:1 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

The overwhelming majority of false prophets have small, minority followings. Only when a body of people have completely fallen does the false prophet hold the majority view (examples would be Egypt of Exodus 7-14, and Judah of Jeremiah 28).

Blessings,

[Gibs]

I'm one of the very few who will follow Him only and no man.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not .

Ga 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

ESV | ‎Ge 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

ESV | ‎Mt 19:5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

ESV | ‎Eph 5:31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

ESV | ‎1 Co 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

ESV | ‎Jn 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,

ESV | ‎Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

ESV | ‎Ro 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

ESV | ‎1 Co 3:8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

Are these writers talking about math?

No, they are talking metaphorically. This is very basic. It's scary at which level the people one sees around one operate.

Soooooo, why then do you put a concrete mathematical construct on the trinitarian oneness?

[Gerr]

]

Ga 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

I don't consider you an enemy even though you are not speaking/teaching the truth re: Triune God.

[Gerr]

Oy, Gibs! While the majority may not be the ones to follow, being in the minority is never proof one is speaking true the true testimony, either!