Beyond Belief: X-SDAs leaving for non-SDA doctrine

[BobRyan]

Adventist Review Article: "Beyond Belief"

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2013-1508&page=18

There you will find Andy Nash commenting on a 2011 study of x-SDAs. That study found that almost 50% of them left because of doctrinal differences.

The background for that report includes a 1998 report by Monte Sahlin stating that less than 1 in 5 (less than 20%) were leaving because of doctrinal differences. Thus in a span of a little over 11 years that number went from less than 20% to almost 50%.

Now think about that increase in so short a time. It is telling us that confusion over doctrine among those leaving the SDA church is the fastest growing reason for leaving and in fact has to be the largest single factor of all of them now that it has reached the 49% mark.

Now if we go back in time to the "solution" that was being offered as a result of the older line of thinking as reflected in the 1998 study - what do you suppose that was??

No doubt that old solution in practice at the time was "Less focus on doctrine and more focus on just being more friendly to everyone". That was the old school solution based on 1998 thinking and assumptions about x-SDAs. More socials, more God-loves-you-no-matter-what and non-stop "Can't we all just get along" at the expense of promoting doctrine - without hesitation.

That resulted in doctrinal confusion "shooting through the roof" as the primary reason for leaving!

So while I think you can still see some people still operating under the "old school" line of thinking that we should promote social dinner club nicety at the expense of doctrine any day - it may be that a few within leadership are waking up to the real problem.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

I think your onto something with that analysis Bob. I also suspect there is a direct correlation to acceptance of Ellen White as a divine messenger and the rejection of doctrine. Once you throw out her counsel on the pillars and foundation of our faith, you've cut the anchor and are left to drift.

I would go so far as to say, rejection of Ellen White preceded rejection of doctrine in general.

Wait, I recall the counsel on this: It's not "rejection" of Ellen White, it's making her testimony of no effect! Much more insidious.

[joeb]

Does anyone feel things shaking?

[Windsor]

There are probably better social clubs than church. So when you make the social aspect the priority and people no longer believe in the doctrines, then why not just join a more fun social club and leave church behind? After all, the non church social clubs probably don't care what you do morally as long as everything is done among consenting adults (not just sex).

[phkrause]

Excellent point Club, some will take a little longer than others.

[phkrause]

The shaking has been going on for a while now, probably 50 yrs+. A little at a time, but I do agree its getting much more visible lately.

[Windsor]

The former Adventists I know began by taking a few statements by Ellen White that they didn't understand, proceeded to then throw her out altogether, considered themselves SDAs for awhile longer, then decided to throw that moniker out because they didn't understand the investigative judgment after a brief surface read. Now they have joined non-SDA churches with what they consider to be better fellowship.

[Tom Wetmore]

That is seriously twisting the finding of the study and profoundly misrepresenting the whole point of Andy's article.

[CoAspen]

Some look at a glass and can't see if it is half full or half empty! So the answer is 'what does one want to see'?

[ClubV12]

How do you see it as twisting Tom? The study seems pretty clear, almost 50% of X Adventist who left the Church, left over doctrinal issues.

My hypothesis of this study states that on further investigation you would find that nearly 100% of those who left over doctrinal issues either never accepted Ellen White as a divine messenger or rejected her as one.

This hypothesis is consistent with what Ellen White herself had to say on the subject. In that respect, the study serves only to confirm the prophecy!

Hardly misrepresentation, it's simple logic. It is virtually impossible to reject the doctrinal views of this Church AND accept Ellen White as a divine messenger at the same time.

Now as to Bobs analysis of the data, I think he is right on target AND is also consistent with the counsel of Ellen White. By undermining the "law", as we are STILL doing today, we are reaping the results. Bobs analysis is worthy of consideration!

[debbym]

everyone is shaken in the shaking....some become gradually immoveable, others moved away.

my friend is growing baby tomato plants and those little plants need the breeze on them. When they shake in the wind, they grow stronger for their whole life.

Hebrews 12:5 NLT Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!

26 When God spoke from Mount Sinai his voice shook the earth, but now he makes another promise: “Once again I will shake not only the earth but the heavens also.” 27 This means that all of creation will be shaken and removed, so that only unshakable things will remain.

28 Since we are receiving a Kingdom that is unshakable, let us be thankful and please God by worshiping him with holy fear and awe.

[M. T. Cross]

Some look at a glass and can't see if it is half full or half empty! So the answer is 'what does one want to see'?

And some look past the glass and see that it contains a refreshing beverage and are grateful

[Gail]

Amen, Deb!

I am thinking of something else... I felt for a long time that are people were, about 20 years ago or so, living by do's and don'ts instead of an emphasis on living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

We were seeing people living by some portions of EGW's work until they were totally unbalanced, legalistic and judgmental. Then there was a swing away from that and we lost many members during that time, too. During both those eras I could see that reform was needed, but we suffered loss from both extremes.

I see this as according to God's will. I, too, believe it is the shaking. I admire people who are willing to be honest. If they decide they need to walk I see that as better than remaining in the church in unbelief (and I may be wrong on this, I don't know)

My wish is that we help struggling ones to learn to connect with the heart, to live by faith, to know what it is to live by the Spirit. I just wish I knew how to help more than I do!

[olger]

Does anyone feel things shaking?

Yessir

[olger]

Adventist Review Article: "Beyond Belief"

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2013-1508&page=18

There you will find Andy Nash commenting on a 2011 study of x-SDAs. That study found that almost 50% of them left because of doctrinal differences.

The background for that report includes a 1998 report by Monte Sahlin stating that less than 1 in 5 (less than 20%) were leaving because of doctrinal differences. Thus in a span of a little over 11 years that number went from less than 20% to almost 50%.

Now think about that increase in so short a time. It is telling us that confusion over doctrine among those leaving the SDA church is the fastest growing reason for leaving and in fact has to be the largest single factor of all of them now that it has reached the 49% mark.

Now if we go back in time to the "solution" that was being offered as a result of the older line of thinking as reflected in the 1998 study - what do you suppose that was??

No doubt that old solution in practice at the time was "Less focus on doctrine and more focus on just being more friendly to everyone". That was the old school solution based on 1998 thinking and assumptions about x-SDAs. More socials, more God-loves-you-no-matter-what and non-stop "Can't we all just get along" at the expense of promoting doctrine - without hesitation.

That resulted in doctrinal confusion "shooting through the roof" as the primary reason for leaving!

So while I think you can still see some people still operating under the "old school" line of thinking that we should promote social dinner club nicety at the expense of doctrine any day - it may be that a few within leadership are waking up to the real problem.

in Christ,

Bob

I think this observation makes sense, Bob. Don't fret over the naysayers here.

Rejoice always!

G

[BobRyan]

That is seriously twisting the finding of the study and profoundly misrepresenting the whole point of Andy's article.

I gave facts - you gave baseless accusation as the primary "substance" in your response - rather than pointing to some actual fact.

I am actually content to let that comparison stand and since you apparently are as well - I think we both win on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I think your onto something with that analysis Bob. I also suspect there is a direct correlation to acceptance of Ellen White as a divine messenger and the rejection of doctrine. Once you throw out her counsel on the pillars and foundation of our faith, you've cut the anchor and are left to drift.

I would go so far as to say, rejection of Ellen White preceded rejection of doctrine in general.

Wait, I recall the counsel on this: It's not "rejection" of Ellen White, it's making her testimony of no effect! Much more insidious.

Agreed but that lack of understanding of Ellen White's ministry as a prophet is simply a symptom of "less focus on detail" - less focus on doctrine and Bible study and more focus on socializing better.

The "Socializing better" idea as the key focus at the expense of doctrine - may have seemed like the right solution given Sahlin's 1998 report - but as we see clearly now - he was either sadly mistaken, or sadly suppressing facts, or the short-sighted solution some followed in response to his report has left us reaping the whirl wind after sowing to the wind.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I think this observation makes sense, Bob. Don't fret over the naysayers here.

Rejoice always!

G

No doubt - God is always going to win out in the end - so for that I say along with you - rejoice - and again I say rejoice!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Since one of the questions listed above is about the accuracy of Sahlin's published views -

Here is an example of a somewhat clueless review by another author that Ryan links to on his blog

Quote:

Ryan Bell provides this link:

Hollywood Pastor Fired for Being Too Innovative, by Monte Sahlin

http://www.atoday.org/article/1770/news/april/hollywood-pastor-fired-for-being-too-innovative

He has no major doctrinal differences with the denomination, but Bell told Adventist Today that:

1. “my views about gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender individuals is one significant issue.”

2.And, “I have expressed discomfort with the expression that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy ... feeling that statement simply goes too far”

3. as well as “ambiguity about the church’s belief in a literal six-day creation.”

Surveys show that significant minorities of Adventist pastors in North America have similar opinions.

Bell, like most pastors who agree with him on the issues noted above, has not been outspoken on these topics. “I have written articles [published] in Huffington Post and Spectrum that have been construed as critical of the church,” he said. “My goal has never been to slander the church that I love, but to nudge her along the path of growth

Who actually swallows those self-contradictory statements in Sahlin's article without blinking, choking, reaching for some water?

http://www.atoday.org/article/1770/news/april/hollywood-pastor-fired-for-being-too-innovative

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That is seriously twisting the finding of the study and profoundly misrepresenting the whole point of Andy's article.

I gave facts - you gave baseless accusation as the primary "substance" in your response - rather than pointing to some actual fact.

I am actually content to let that comparison stand and since you apparently are as well - I think we both win on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own "facts".

I think most who have actually read the article will know that you have simply twisted the information of the article and added your own opinion beyond what the article actual says. Play connect the dots, if you must, but don't leave the impression that the ideas you have are presented in the article in question, or even a reasonable extension of its main point.

[OzarkWoman]

That is seriously twisting the finding of the study and profoundly misrepresenting the whole point of Andy's article.

Well, some people would do anything tho show the world their glorious EGW. They can't seem to make a decision or even a post without bringing her name up. To me, it is sickening and it is what is causing some, not all of course, but some of the rift. I hear more about EGW here than I even do in church. For that I am thankful because I would not want to leave my church. I, and a few others in our church, would walk out the door if they started preaching EGW all of the time. I am ever so grateful that our church has more than one Sabbath school class because in our class we actually study the word of God and not the word of EGW. I personally, and this is only my opinion here, believe that when people are so stuck on EGW quotes and all, even to the extent of forgoing the Bible, then one has some definite problems with their own faith, all the while trying to push people into submission of their "laws", which won't get them to be with Jesus at all. It is shallow thinking at best.

[OzarkWoman]

Amen, Deb!

I am thinking of something else... I felt for a long time that are people were, about 20 years ago or so, living by do's and don'ts instead of an emphasis on living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

We were seeing people living by some portions of EGW's work until they were totally unbalanced, legalistic and judgmental. Then there was a swing away from that and we lost many members during that time, too. During both those eras I could see that reform was needed, but we suffered loss from both extremes.

I see this as according to God's will. I, too, believe it is the shaking. I admire people who are willing to be honest. If they decide they need to walk I see that as better than remaining in the church in unbelief (and I may be wrong on this, I don't know)

My wish is that we help struggling ones to learn to connect with the heart, to live by faith, to know what it is to live by the Spirit. I just wish I knew how to help more than I do!

You are right Gail. You have a few here in this forum who seem to think more of the "laws" than they do for actual word of God. That is also what is helping people to leave the church. Some people are sick and tired of those that think they are better than others, all because they have been an Adventist longer, or they are a vegetarian or any number of other things. It makes me sick. I want and try to live by the Bible and I don't care one iota about EGW. That does not make me a bad Adventist, as a couple here have basically said.

[ClubV12]

"If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right."

Evangelism pg 258

[debbym]

Quote:

I am thinking of something else... I felt for a long time that are people were, about 20 years ago or so, living by do's and don'ts instead of an emphasis on living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

I think we go through a stage of this in maturing as christians. I think we have members who are living in this stage today.

If you tithed then you expected services from the pastor, family illness, death, baptism, baby dedications.

unless you are to the place where you are actively witnessing, and reaching out to others, and laboring spiritually for those around you.... you generally just live by those habits you know are the good things to do.

but when you step into thew battle field, the only way you will even enter the battle field is by living by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

it is a new thing for members to become more involved. Church used to be much more of a spectator experience then i experience it now.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That is seriously twisting the finding of the study and profoundly misrepresenting the whole point of Andy's article.

Well, some people would do anything tho show the world their glorious EGW. They can't seem to make a decision or even a post without bringing her name up.

A. I don't see her name in Tom's post.

B. I don't see her name in the review regarding the high degree of doctrinal confusion among those SDAs leaving the church.

How did you land on that -it must be the fault of those who accept Ellen White as a prophet - form of response?

in Christ,

Bob