BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 Originally Posted By: BobRyan So how can we find good ways to inform them of the teachings of the Bible and the messages God has given us through the Holy Spirit in these last days? Why do you think Ellen White is the way? You teach from the Bible and if they don't want to believe the Bible, then there is not much one can do. You and others are too stuck on EGW and really need to get a grip. Just because some don't think about EGW one way or another does not mean we are bad Adventists. It means we are more concerned with the word of God, via the Bible. I for one am very happy to find someone "more concerned with the Word of God - via the Bible". I love to rejoice every time I find one such person. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
OzarkWoman Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 How do we manage to keep getting these warm, fuzzy kind-hearted responses? What is going on? in Christ, Bob You keep getting them because Club has made it perfectly clear that I am not a good Adventist in his eyes and that I should not have been baptized, until I see things his way. He has made it perfectly clear that he thinks his way is the only way. He wants robots to be part of the membership of the SDA denomination. He not only wants unity, but in fact, wants uniformity. He thinks he is a king and everyone should bow down to him. I am not a meek little woman who will just back away when someone treats me the way he has. Yes, most of his messages have been subtle, but I am also not stupid. Maybe he needs to read where I came from to the place I am at this moment. My Testimony
BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 I see your point Bob and I concur. In MY experience I simply could not find anyone that could give me intelligent, serious answers to doctrinal inquiries. Perhaps, most people aren't even looking that deep, or our own people. For ME the solution was to research what our official positions and statements were on any given doctrinal point. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 So, how do we educate the laity? Prayer meeting in an hour, gotta run, and thats ONE way to educate them. By the way... Debby, I base my comments on what is happening to the Church based on what is happening to professed Adventist in the Church on this forum! I realize it varies from Church to Church. I have a STRONG faith in the Church, but the reality is as Bob has said. Our people are indeed limited in their understanding of doctrinal points, in ALL our Churches. The confusion on THIS forum over doctrine is babylon itself! Indeed prayer meeting, Sabbath school and more and more these days small group Bible studies are starting up in churches. But to get to the heart of the problem there has to be a focus from the Pulpit on the subject of what the Bible actually says. If the pulpit is heavily tilted toward pontification, let's all be friends, then the people leave feeling that a nice sermon was had - but they have no answers to Bible questions and later when they call the office - they will sometimes find that the Pastor does not have in depth answers to the really hard questions either. We need to get out of that rut. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I'll admit, I haven't quite got Daniel 11 figured out yet... but I'm in good company, nobody else has either! Verse 45, hotly contested!
Ted Oplinger Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Perhaps you would have done much better by asking for clarification as to exactly what "way from her works" actually meant, instead of presumptuously declaring I meant something other than what I conveyed. It seems rather obvious to me that both you and Club are the ones with the issue. Aside from the both of you, all the other respondents understood perfectly well what I meant by those words. Personally - I understand full well the need to handle carefully the weak in faith with respect to Ellen White. As I have posted before - I have yet to see any of the sheep the Lord has passed under my care leave the SDA Church due to my teaching about the Spirit of Prophecy. Considering the quotes of mine where you put in red my words - here's a return hint: at no point did I say: Quote: Hint there is NO "Away from the testimonies given by the Holy Spirit - just read the Bible" in all the quotes you gave. For that idea - we have only you to quote. You provided not one single quote of Ellen White pointing people "away from the Testimonies" or of urging the people not to read the Testimonies. And you tell me not to play word games??? I didn't say "Away from the testimonies inspired by the Holy Spirit"...and neither do I find those words in the Testimonies passage I was unfolding here, Bob. Those are YOUR words inserted into the argument. Here, I must ask a question: do these words of yours indicate a personal exaltation of the Testimonies to the level they can be used in place of Scriptures...contrary to her expressed words? Your manner of contending leads one to answer that in the affirmative. Next, "just read the Bible" again is not found in my position - again, they are your spin placed upon my arguments. Ellen White IS on record, though, of saying more than once that if God's people truly studied and kept His Word, her Testimonies would not have been needed. Those ARE her words, whether it agrees with your personal point of view or not. Next, you say: Quote: You provided not one single quote of Ellen White pointing people "away from the Testimonies" You're right - I didn't provide a single quote...I provided several in-context passages conveying that exact thought. It is a folly to demand exact wordings, yet dismiss entire sections of testimony which convey that very meaning so clearly even a child can see it. Then there's this gem: Quote: or of urging the people not to read the Testimonies. Since you demanded exact wordings of me, let's do the turn-about, fair play: do be a good brother and demonstrate exactly where I said those exact words. Not by those exact words, nor in my unfolding in-context of how Ellen White's works are to be held in relation to the word of God, have I urged people to not read the Testimonies, nor have I said they are unimportant. Again, these are words you (and Club) have inserted into my posts. Those words just aren't there. Perhaps it is feelings you think I'm conveying? Rather, it is the disruption of your own pet ideas that has you upset. By placing the Testimonies into the precise context Ellen White herself places them in, you seem to think a person would be destroying the inspiration and validity of the Testimonies, downgrading their importance. That would be the very thought betrayed here... Quote: Instead - you find places where Ellen White encouraged people to accept them both as being messages given by God through the Holy Spirit. ...where you demonstrate just where you stray from the Testimonies, in that you desire to lead people to conclude the Testimonies and the Bible have equal roles with regard to the Remnant. Here, you are at variance with Ellen White's plain words in the chapter I unfolded, even as I conveyed them clearly previously. If that is what you personally want to believe, then by all means you are free to do so. However, to castigate anyone for uplifting the Testimonies and placing them in their proper relation to the Scriptures, you are not at liberty to do without bearing false witness. The same Lord who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not commit murder...and He also said, Do not bear false witness against your neighbor. Hence, when you end with these words, Quote: You are playing a word game here where you argue against reading the messages God gave Ellen White "instead of the Bible" as if this is the only alternative to your idea of "pointing people AWAY from her books". You present a flawed alternative as if it is the only one to what you suggest It is found that really, you are playing the word games, with both what I've posted, and with Ellen White's words, as the summation you present is not one to be found in my posts. Others have noted this; you and Club apparently cannot. The flaw very much appears to be in your perception, and your issue apparently the contradiction of your cherished point of view of the Testimonies. You are not the first I have encountered with this flaw and this issue, nor do I suspect you to be the last. Go in peace tonight. Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Sad reality is, there are many on this forum that rejoice to find a reason to make the Spirit of Prophecy of lesser or even of no effect. And doing so with Spirit of Prophecy quotes is iceing on the cake. Those who are already marginal in their view of her inspired work are for the most part, not exclusively, those who are rejoicing over a dialog they see as supportive of their view. That Sister Whites work isn't that big of a deal. Fact is, her work is a HUGE deal! What has been posted from her work is certainly factually correct because it came from the pen of the prophet. How it is has been and will be interpreted and applied is of serious concern. Considering the fruit of this thread, I must conclude the dialog has in fact injured, not helped, this cause. Those marginal to Sister White will now be even more marginal. Factually you have a lot more supporters than Bob has, Ted. I'm not sure thats anything to be proud of, but it's factually correct.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Sad reality is, there are many on this forum that rejoice to find a reason to make the Spirit of Prophecy of lesser or even of no effect. And doing so with Spirit of Prophecy quotes is iceing on the cake. Those who are already marginal in their view of her inspired work are for the most part, not exclusively, those who are rejoicing over a dialog they see as supportive of their view. That Sister Whites work isn't that big of a deal. Fact is, her work is a HUGE deal! What has been posted from her work is certainly factually correct because it came from the pen of the prophet. How it is has been and will be interpreted and applied is of serious concern. Considering the fruit of this thread, I must conclude the dialog has in fact injured, not helped, this cause. Those marginal to Sister White will now be even more marginal. Factually you have a lot more supporters than Bob has, Ted. I'm not sure thats anything to be proud of, but it's factually correct. And with this post you fall into the same points I gave to Bob. It is not what I said, or how I said it, that has you riled. It is the point I am not in agreement with the way you portray the Testimonies. I place her writings in to the very context she herself declares ought to be. It very much appears you and Bob place them on a level whereby they may used in place of the Bible - something explicitly spoken against by Ellen White herself. That is the point of contention you have. As I said to Bob, I repeat to you - you can in no way shape or form demonstrate where I have marginalized Ellen White's works. You have been given ample time. Bob cannot even get my words correct - and he has had ample time. Yes, factually, more people do agree with my position, than either yours or Bob's. All this means is that they understand exactly what I wrote and how I said it - and they disagree with the spin you and Bob have placed upon my posts. If that is a sad reality to be lamented, then it might behoove you to next time do as I cautioned Bob to above - ask for clarification to what was written before adopting a view point of contention. Even more factually, I have the agreement of Ellen White herself, as she penned those thoughts over decades of ministry, knowing there were people in the church even then who lifted her works completely out of their proper role and thought they were honoring God and Ellen White in doing so. Even with that, I'd rather have the unction and approval of God above anyone's opinions, no matter how many - or how few - agreed with me. Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
CoAspen Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Quote: Even with that, I'd rather have the unction and approval of God above anyone's opinions, no matter how many - or how few - agreed with me. Well said and that is the crux of the whole issue. Regardless of differences of opinions, we answer to God only. Thankfully!!
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Ted says, "It very much appears you and Bob place them on a level whereby they may used in place of the Bible.." No one actually says they place the spirit of prophecy above the bible, NO ONE. And now we see how that works, how this Adventist myth has evolved. It is something said of people who express their belief in the gift in no uncertain terms!!! Those who repeat the "myth" are in fact "imagining evil of their brother" and engaging in rumor and gossip. Destroying faith in the gift. Very troubling indeed. Hearts have been hardened, delusion has deepened, the cause has suffered injury, the myth confirmed! My view of the relationship between the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy is identical to the view of the official Seventh-day Adventist Church. No less, no more. The gift is a guide, a lesser light leading to a greater light. An inspired messenger ordained by the Father for His people in these last days. A HUGE gift of incredible value to the dear Saints of our time! This I believe may be the very root of the problem for those leaving the Church over doctrinal issues. The partial or complete rejection of the spirit of prophecy and what follows is confusion over the doctrine!
Ted Oplinger Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Ted says,"It very much appears you and Bob place them on a level whereby they may used in place of the Bible.." No one actually says they place the spirit of prophecy above the bible, NO ONE. And now we see how that works, how this Adventist myth has evolved. It is something said of people who express their belief in the gift in no uncertain terms!!! Those who repeat the "myth" are in fact "imagining evil of their brother" and engaging in rumor and gossip. Destroying faith in the gift. Very troubling indeed. "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Ted says, "It very much appears you and Bob place them on a level whereby they may used in place of the Bible." With this statement it becomes clear that you hold a certain resentment toward those who accept, believe, take comfort in and trust the Spirit of Prophecy. You accuse them of holding the gift to a higher standard than the bible. By so doing, you undermine the value of the gift and essentially call those who strongly support it, fanatics. By this fruit, dear Brother Ted, sadly I must conclude, your work is one of tearing down, not building up. You have helped those marganilized on their opinion of the gift to move away from it. This fulfills the prophecy of making the gift of little or no effect.
JoeMo Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Elder Iron Deacon (I perceive you are at least an elder - maybe a pastor!) I wish to commend the calm, logical, and eloquent way you state your position and opinions. I envy your level of knowledge and balance. Kudos to the value that you bring to CA; particularly recent balanced posts concerning the relationship between scripture and the SoP. You have influenced me greatly over the past several weeks. I have stated previously that I reserve the right to be wrong; and to change my mind, given sufficient evidence and logic. God has changed my mind through your words on more than one issue over the past few weeks - and settled my mind as well. There are a few others here who have influenced me in a similar way; some who are not even Christian - just balanced, logical individuals. (It would likely embarass them if I named them here). I would likely be completely gone from the church by now if it had not been for one of these individuals. Thank you for the valuable wisdom you bring to CA. Blessings, JoeMo
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I really appreciate Bob Ryan more and more. Thank you Bob, for holding the standard high.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Ted says,"It very much appears you and Bob place them on a level whereby they may used in place of the Bible." With this statement it becomes clear that you hold a certain resentment toward those who accept, believe, take comfort in and trust the Spirit of Prophecy. You accuse them of holding the gift to a higher standard than the bible. By so doing, you undermine the value of the gift and essentially call those who strongly support it, fanatics. By this fruit, dear Brother Ted, sadly I must conclude, your work is one of tearing down, not building up. You have helped those marganilized on their opinion of the gift to move away from it. This fulfills the prophecy of making the gift of little or no effect. And that's why two men from early in my walk with the Lord, after learning the proper role of the Spirit of Prophecy in relation to the Bible, were drawn by the Lord away from their secular studies, to become pastors of His flock. Club, that was over 20 years ago - both are solid in the SoP, solid in the Bible, and have growing ministries even as I write this. As I posted earlier about Ellen White's statement that the Testimonies are from God - the proof of the Testimonies is in the results God produces through them. Blessings, brother "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Elder Iron Deacon (I perceive you are at least an elder - maybe a pastor!)I wish to commend the calm, logical, and eloquent way you state your position and opinions. I envy your level of knowledge and balance. Kudos to the value that you bring to CA; particularly recent balanced posts concerning the relationship between scripture and the SoP. You have influenced me greatly over the past several weeks. I have stated previously that I reserve the right to be wrong; and to change my mind, given sufficient evidence and logic. God has changed my mind through your words on more than one issue over the past few weeks - and settled my mind as well. There are a few others here who have influenced me in a similar way; some who are not even Christian - just balanced, logical individuals. (It would likely embarass them if I named them here). I would likely be completely gone from the church by now if it had not been for one of these individuals. Thank you for the valuable wisdom you bring to CA. Blessings, JoeMo Well, like I say after sermons I periodically do - if you have obtained a blessing, it is the Lord working through this fallible, frail man. I claim no credit here. All I can do is place people in proximity to SoP and the Bible - the Lord does the rest. Like you, I also am still learning, as on this side of Resurrection Morning, none can say they have mastered all and have attained omniscience. We can only reach a maturity in Christ while here, and that by a step-by-step walk with Jesus. The Lord does have His people scattered everywhere - the final call has not yet been given to gather together for our next Exodus. Blessings, indeed "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 God bless you in your ministry Ted. We are never free from making mistakes and the Father recognizes that. The consequences may be small or large, sometimes we don't know. Hopefully we learn from them and move on, forgetting those thing which are behind us. Due to the time and place and considering the needs of the flock here, I do believe your dialog was a mistake. I also recognize the Father at times if there is no other way to wake people up, the Father allows error to come into the Church. Those who misunderstand your dialog will be as Pharoah became, even more stubborn. Others will see the wisdom and balance in the gift and be encouraged. As to whether or not you made a mistake in your presentation, I think so. And I think you can handle that counsel as simply my opinion on the matter. In my local Church I deal with a LOT of fanaticism and off shoots who loudly proclaim the organized Church is Babylon. Much error has been allowed to come into that Church, I don't know why. These folks KNOW Ellen White extremely well, to meet them on their own ground, so must I. To meet them on their own ground I need to be living the blue print she counsels. Neither I, nor they, would ever say or even pretend to misunderstand the correct relationship of the gift to the bible. It would an instant loss of any credibility. It may one of the FEW points we can agree on! The Adventist Church I formerly attended consistently diminished the work of the gift and dimissed it with ease. Loudly proclaiming the bible and the bible only would be their base. Two extremes.
OzarkWoman Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Loudly proclaiming the bible and the bible only would be their base. As it should be. Ellen White should not be used at the pulpit or used to browbeat, as you are doing, it into people, telling them that if they don't love EGW as you do then they aren't fit for the SDA denomination. That is cultish and very sick.
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 If you loose your balance, the devil doesn't care which side of the road your on, as long as your in the ditch. Which 'ism is worse, fanaticism or loadeciaism?
Ted Oplinger Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 God bless you in your ministry Ted. We are never free from making mistakes and the Father recognizes that. The consequences may be small or large, sometimes we don't know. Hopefully we learn from them and move on, forgetting those thing which are behind us. "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 Originally Posted By: BobRyan How do we manage to keep getting these warm, fuzzy kind-hearted responses? What is going on? in Christ, Bob You keep getting them because Club has made it perfectly clear that I am not a good Adventist in his eyes and that I should not have been baptized You keep saying that in response to any post that Club makes no matter that it does not touch the subject you mention above. How does that keep happening? Why not just deal with the subject at hand? in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
OzarkWoman Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 You keep saying that in response to any post that Club makes no matter that it does not touch the subject you mention above. How does that keep happening? Why not just deal with the subject at hand? in Christ, Bob I am on topic. Maybe you should read all of the posts and stop deadpanning on mine.
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 I see your point Bob and I concur. In MY experience I simply could not find anyone that could give me intelligent, serious answers to doctrinal inquiries. Perhaps, most people aren't even looking that deep, or our own people. I think that is what the article that Andy Nash is pointing out. In general we have some low-information Bible students who are going more on hear-say and storytelling than on actual personal research into the Word of God. And the result is that of those that leave - doctrinal confusion is the number 1 issue. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books, John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 Originally Posted By: BobRyan So how can we find good ways to inform them of the teachings of the Bible and the messages God has given us through the Holy Spirit in these last days? Why do you think Ellen White is the way? You teach from the Bible and if they don't want to believe the Bible, then there is not much one can do. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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