Beyond Belief: X-SDAs leaving for non-SDA doctrine

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That is seriously twisting the finding of the study and profoundly misrepresenting the whole point of Andy's article.

I gave facts - you gave baseless accusation as the primary "substance" in your response - rather than pointing to some actual fact.

I am actually content to let that comparison stand and since you apparently are as well - I think we both win on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right."

Evangelism pg 258

Interesting warning - thanks for posting it - I will look that one up.

Facts, details, information - it is all good!

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

An excerpt from the vision of "The two crowns" (earthly crown and heavenly crown). Some were reaching for BOTH! You must pick one, and one only.

"Those who were in pursuit of the earthly, mocked them, and threw black balls after them. These did them no injury while their eyes were fixed upon the heavenly crown, but those who turned their attention to the black balls were stained with them."

Testimonies, Volume 1 pg 349

I believe Bobs analysis of the article points to this very problem. Pursuit of the two crowns, one earthly and one heavenly. Those pursuing both will have a tendancy to mock those whom they think go to far in their pursuit of the heavenly.

Is it possible, we have come to the point where the pursuit of both crowns has become the norm?

[joeb]

unless you are to the place where you are actively witnessing, and reaching out to others, and laboring spiritually for those around you.... you generally just live by those habits you know are the good things to do.

but when you step into thew battle field, the only way you will even enter the battle field is by living by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

This is a great point, debbym. I read something from Ellen White years ago and have never been able to find it again, but it basically says that when we go to work for others we will often be driven to our knees to know how to answer and how to work with those we are trying to help. IOW's we will come to know just how dependent on God we really are when we begin to understand how little we really know about His love, and how to share to it.

I've found this to be oh so true by experience. Only prayer and dependence upon God for wisdom, understanding, and love of our fellow man can give us the ability to work for others.

[BobRyan]

An excerpt from the vision of "The two crowns" (earthly crown and heavenly crown). Some were reaching for BOTH! You must pick one, and one only.

"Those who were in pursuit of the earthly, mocked them, and threw black balls after them. These did them no injury while their eyes were fixed upon the heavenly crown, but those who turned their attention to the black balls were stained with them."

Testimonies, Volume 1 pg 349

I believe Bobs analysis of the article points to this very problem. Pursuit of the two crowns, one earthly and one heavenly. Those pursuing both will have a tendancy to mock those whom they think go to far in their pursuit of the heavenly.

Is it possible, we have come to the point where the pursuit of both crowns has become the norm?

Interesting thought.

Here is another - what makes liberal leaning Christians so prone to ad hominem responses when they find little or nothing "in the actual details" to support their views?

Why wouldn't the caring, all-views-welcomed model so often claimed by the liberal take over just then?

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Here is another - what makes liberal leaning Christians so prone to ad hominem responses when they find little or nothing "in the actual details" to support their views?

Why wouldn't the caring, all-views-welcomed model so often claimed by the liberal take over just then?

in Christ,

Bob

Likely the same reason conservative leaning Christians do the very same thing. The basic human nature and behavior seems largely unaffected by either side's pious mutterings...

[BobRyan]

ok - so let's look at some solutions.

Adventist Review Article: "Beyond Belief"

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2013-1508&page=18

There you will find Andy Nash commenting on a 2011 study of x-SDAs. That study found that almost 50% of them left because of doctrinal differences.

The background for that report includes a 1998 report by Monte Sahlin stating that less than 1 in 5 (less than 20%) were leaving because of doctrinal differences. Thus in a span of a little over 11 years that number went from less than 20% to almost 50%.

Now think about that increase in so short a time. It is telling us that confusion over doctrine among those leaving the SDA church is the fastest growing reason for leaving and in fact has to be the largest single factor of all of them now that it has reached the 49% mark.

Now if we go back in time to the "solution" that was being offered as a result of the older line of thinking as reflected in the 1998 study - what do you suppose that was??

No doubt that old solution in practice at the time was "Less focus on doctrine and more focus on just being more friendly to everyone". That was the old school solution based on 1998 thinking and assumptions about x-SDAs. More socials, more God-loves-you-no-matter-what and non-stop "Can't we all just get along" at the expense of promoting doctrine - without hesitation.

That resulted in doctrinal confusion "shooting through the roof" as the primary reason for leaving!

So while I think you can still see some people still operating under the "old school" line of thinking that we should promote social dinner club nicety at the expense of doctrine any day - it may be that a few within leadership are waking up to the real problem.

More doctrinal based sermons?

More "why we are SDA instead of SDB"?

It appears from the study above that the average Bible knowledge quotient in the pews is dropping and that attention to Bible detail is more and more lacking while at the same time focus on movies, video games, sports, TV shows is at an all-time high (if we judge by references to the above from sermons where the pastors and their families are themselves engaged as patrons of the activity).

How to address it - ideas?

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

That is a question many of us deal with Bob, HOW do you encourage fellow members to hold the banner high, to hold the standards high without coming off as radical in some way?

In the larger Church I used to attend there were times I left after the sermon with literally tears of joy because the Pastor, or a visiting Pastor was preaching just that! Recognizing that Gods law is a thing of beauty and we must not take it lightly. Sermons delivered with courage, truth and LOVE! In a humble way. Talking the straight talk. Movies, TV, reading material, diet, dress, I've heard all these subjects presented in a way that left me praising God for His appointed messengers!

Not every sermon, and I'm OK with that, but often enough. The balance in righteousness by faith, and now lets get to work. No mystery on what the "work" was, determination to make a change in some aspect of your life. To come to a higher understanding of what it means to be a Christian, an Adventist.

Not all have bowed their knee to Baal.

In my the smaller Church I'm in now, almost every sermon touches on the above topics and considerably more. Our Pastor, Head Elder, visiting Pastors deliver powerful, truthful messages that DO hold the standard high! I love my little Church. And no, we won't be having a superbowl blowout party with a big screen and snacks. But hey, if thats your thing and I'm invited, I hope your OK if I don't attend. Nothing personal...

[joeb]

ok - so let's look at some solutions.

More doctrinal based sermons?

More "why we are SDA instead of SDB"?

It appears from the study above that the average Bible knowledge quotient in the pews is dropping and that attention to Bible detail is more and more lacking while at the same time focus on movies, video games, sports, TV shows is at an all-time high (if we judge by references to the above from sermons where the pastors and their families are themselves engaged as patrons of the activity).

How to address it - ideas?

in Christ,

Bob

Paul faced this issue. His solution to the issues he faced was one thing, and one thing only. Preach Jesus Christ. Preach His love. Ellen White says it is the love of God that draws us, and she is absolutely correct.

So, how do we get people more interested in spiritual things? Preach Jesus Christ. His love. His sacrifice. His ability to change us.

And, most of all, we ourselves have to live God's love. It's nothing we can generate in ourselves, or of ourselves. We have to surrender all of self, and only then can we share the love of Christ, for when we have committed all, surrendered all, to Christ, we will be given the Holy Spirit without measure, and then we can be used mightily by Him. You want a quote for that? I can give you one. It's from the Desire of Ages.

[ClubV12]

Make no mistake, Jesus is NOT going to do for you that which you can do for yourself. He has already blessed each of us with a will and a measure of faith. He has given us detailed information on how to live a Christian life. He knows that following this blueprint will significantly reduce temptation. It will give you real mental and physical strength to overcome sin. It will cleanse the blood and increase the mental capacity to understand more about what He is trying to tell you. He expects each of us to do our part, to DETERMINE to follow that counsel. IF you will do that, go out on faith and start to apply the blueprint to your life, THEN you will begin to understand how humanity and divinity work together. Then you find how righteousness by faith really works.

Our people need to be educated, most members of the Church are beyond what Paul called a "milk diet". Our people need the blue print of life as given to us through His messenger, Ellen White, in order to find the strength to overcome.

[OzarkWoman]

Not one person in this world, or any to come, need EGW. That is the problem of those that seem to depend on her and not the Bible. People need the BIBLE and Jesus and not people trying to tell them what to eat, what to wear or any number of stupid denomination "laws". That is not the way to show love.

[ClubV12]

If we didn't need a divine messenger, the Father would not have sent us one.

In the same way the Jews didn't need the book of Moses, all they needed was the ten commandments and the ten commandments only. But because they were to dim witted to understand them, the Father directed that a book should be written. Explaining in detail, right down to how they should dress, how they should eat, how they should pay tithe and offerings, every little detail of life. Spelled out, in great detail.

Of course, some said, "We don't need Moses, were just as smart as he is. All WE need are the ten commandments."

Same thing today, lots of folks fail to realize Moses wrote the book because God inspired him too. Showed him what to write, in visions and dreams and such. So the people wouldn't perish, so they could understand what the law meant, what love meant. He has done the same for us, through His inspired messenger Ellen White. I am SO thankful He has given us this precious gift. It's been such a blessing to my life.

[Gerr]

Soon everything that can be shaken will be shaken, that those things that cannot be shaken may remain.--Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 15, 16.

[BobRyan]

Not one person in this world, or any to come, need EGW.

Do SDA's "need the Bible"?? I hope all agree to say "yes".

Do SDAs need to read the Isaiah 30:8-11 part of the Bible?? (less hands going up).

Do SDAs need to read the 1Thess 5:19-20 part of the Bible?? (even less hands going up).

The problem is not with Ellen White - the problem is with those hands not going up when it comes to Isaiah 30:8-11 and 1Thess 5:19-20.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Evangelism

"If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right."

Evangelism pg 258

Maybe the part that is "not right" for those specific SDAs is their rejection of the Bible warning in Isaiah 30:8-11.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

I see EGW to be what she states she is and always have. EW was my first read of her and I had no doubt from that time on.

But each and every one is free to determine for themselves whether she is or not.

Some would doubt God would send a prophet just in one denomination, that He would send him or her out to all Christians without a lean or afiliation to one that all Christians would equally be blessed and have an open chance, bias removed to accept and be taught.

Yes we do know there is true ones in them all, even in Catholicism.

We need to not condemn, for who are we? So I choose not to press EGW to any, let them freely choose.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Not one person in this world, or any to come, need EGW. That is the problem of those that seem to depend on her and not the Bible. People need the BIBLE and Jesus and not people trying to tell them what to eat, what to wear or any number of stupid denomination "laws". That is not the way to show love.

Funny, OW...I see EGW saying that about herself a number of times in her own writings.

Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books, and to the Bible itself first and foremost for the testimony of Christ.

Blessings,

[Gail]

Funny, OW...I see EGW saying that about herself a number of times in her own writings.

Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books, and to the Bible itself first and foremost for the testimony of Christ.

Originally Posted By: OzarkWoman

Not one person in this world, or any to come, need EGW. That is the problem of those that seem to depend on her and not the Bible. People need the BIBLE and Jesus and not people trying to tell them what to eat, what to wear or any number of stupid denomination "laws". That is not the way to show love.

Although the Bible does that- it does have laws that tell God's people what to eat and what to wear.

EGW's work contains much on how to love. I've read great stuff that if followed, people would not chase others away but win them through love to God. It was the book Ministry of Healing that taught me how to care for sick people, and I am indebted to that book for that.

You are correct when you say that our emphasis needs to be on the Bible. It's all there, as Peter says:

Quote:

2 Peter 1:3

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[OzarkWoman]

Originally Posted By: OzarkWoman

Not one person in this world, or any to come, need EGW. That is the problem of those that seem to depend on her and not the Bible. People need the BIBLE and Jesus and not people trying to tell them what to eat, what to wear or any number of stupid denomination "laws". That is not the way to show love.

Funny, OW...I see EGW saying that about herself a number of times in her own writings.

Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books, and to the Bible itself first and foremost for the testimony of Christ.

Blessings,

NO, many inside the ranks of the church are the ones who try to use her as THE authority. I know that EGW told us all to always use the BIble first and foremost. I see a few of them in this forum.

[OzarkWoman]

Although the Bible does that- it does have laws that tell God's people what to eat and what to wear.

It has many other laws also that the denomination has chosen not to follow. I look at that as picking and choosing the scriptures they want to follow. Sorry, but I do agree that there are laws about what to eat, but there are also other laws that are there.

[Gail]

OW, what we all need to do is to keep a living connection with Christ. The Holy Spirit will guide you as to your walk and your growth.

And that comes by 3 ways:

- God's word (Bible)

- workings of Providence in your life (YOURS- not something that is borrowed from anyone else. It is between you and God)

- The promptings of the Spirit on your heart

How does that sound? :)

[joeb]

Make no mistake, Jesus is NOT going to do for you that which you can do for yourself. He has already blessed each of us with a will and a measure of faith. He has given us detailed information on how to live a Christian life. He knows that following this blueprint will significantly reduce temptation. It will give you real mental and physical strength to overcome sin. It will cleanse the blood and increase the mental capacity to understand more about what He is trying to tell you. He expects each of us to do our part, to DETERMINE to follow that counsel. IF you will do that, go out on faith and start to apply the blueprint to your life, THEN you will begin to understand how humanity and divinity work together. Then you find how righteousness by faith really works.

Our people need to be educated, most members of the Church are beyond what Paul called a "milk diet". Our people need the blue print of life as given to us through His messenger, Ellen White, in order to find the strength to overcome.

[ClubV12]

"God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself. He had vowed to God.... The purity of heaven will never be marred with his society." Child Guidance pg 452

Presumption. He wanted God to do for him what God had already given him the power to do for himself. Make a determined effort to change. Set your alarm clock, get up, offer the morning sacrafice, because God will not do that for you.

Humanity working with divinity. I do believe this concept of the dual roll is the biggest reason we are still trying to figure out rigtheousness by faith. One sermon you may hear is about the need to keep the law. The next may be all about we can do nothing of ourselves, it's all about faith. We see the same conflict in the New Testament! When, where, how you apply either one, or both, like war, is very fluid. The balance is constantly shifting through out the day.

THIS is the narrow path. Without guidance from the throne of God, continually, you will loose your balance. Wait for it, here comes again....

What guidance has the Father provided that might help us stay on the narrow path? The same kind of guidance He gave to the children of Israel, a book, written by a prophet to explain the law. The Father is not going to read the book to you, you will have to set aside time, make a determined effort to study if for yourself. To WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

Funny, OW...I see EGW saying that about herself a number of times in her own writings.

Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books, and to the Bible itself first and foremost for the testimony of Christ.

Blessings,

NO, many inside the ranks of the church are the ones who try to use her as THE authority. I know that EGW told us all to always use the BIble first and foremost. I see a few of them in this forum.

Those are people who really do not understand what inspiration is, and what EGW wrote.

She very explicitly declares the correct usage of her works, in very plain English, in the heart of the Testimonies - the middle of vol. 5. There, several subchapters have titles clearly denoting what to do - and especially what not to do - with her writings.

Even though Ellen wrote all this down, there are many Adventists who brush her words aside. In effect, they would treat Ellen White's writings like they treat the Bible - they would pick and choose what they want to believe.

Blessings,

[ClubV12]

...gathers up some kindling, puts a little gas on the fire, stands back and throws matches at it...

I've heard it asked, "Is EVERY word Ellen White wrote inspired?" In turn I would ask, "Is EVERY word written in the bible inspired?"