BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 As I said to Bob, I repeat to you - you can in no way shape or form demonstrate where I have marginalized Ellen White's works. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 Many leave the church because of the belief held by some that the Spirit of Prophecy writings are an addition to the Scriptures, carrying equal authority because they are both inspired of the Holy Spirit. Being in a college town, I have heard this many, many times from students coming from SDA families where one or both parents hold this view. In coming to college, these students feel they are now free from getting pounded by the Spirit of Prophecy but very little Scriptures. cognitive dissonance. "As if" the students are "greatly relieved" when they find that both the Bible AND the messages God gave Ellen White - stand in opposition to their worldly compromise -- and not "just the words God gave to Ellen White". Or are they "greatly relieved" when they are told not to pay attention at all to what they found in the messages God gave Ellen White - just read whatever you like from the Bible and ignore what does not please you because God is not working through prophets. You seem perplexed as to how to present the case. You seem to be trying to have it "both ways" and so your comments come out somewhat blurred. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Bob - you're getting to the point of going solo with your belief in this argument. It's quite clear to most readers here the only way you are arriving at your conclusion is by cherry-picking my words, and setting them into a context of your own creation. Like I said much earlier to another - all you are doing is undermining your own arguments, knocking your own feet out from underneath you, every time you pull my words out of context as "proof" I have showered disrespect upon SoP. Those who are weak in faith - the very ones you profess to be protecting - would look at your posts and conclude you are promoting the very thing that drives them away - striving to win an argument by beating another person's words about SoP into the context you want to perceive them in. Straw man arguments and appeal to authority fallacies used against another are no way to demonstrate the Gospel to people who may be on the brink of walking out of the church. Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger Many leave the church because of the belief held by some that the Spirit of Prophecy writings are an addition to the Scriptures, carrying equal authority because they are both inspired of the Holy Spirit. Being in a college town, I have heard this many, many times from students coming from SDA families where one or both parents hold this view. In coming to college, these students feel they are now free from getting pounded by the Spirit of Prophecy but very little Scriptures. cognitive dissonance. "As if" the students are "greatly relieved" when they find that both the Bible AND the messages God gave Ellen White - stand in opposition to their worldly compromise -- and not "just the words God gave to Ellen White". Or are they "greatly relieved" when they are told not to pay attention at all to what they found in the messages God gave Ellen White - just read whatever you like from the Bible and ignore what does not please you because God is not working through prophets. You seem perplexed as to how to present the case. You seem to be trying to have it "both ways" and so your comments come out somewhat blurred. in Christ, Bob Like I said above, Bob - people can tell when you're cherry-picking. You left out much of the rest of the story, which clearly negates the very premise you wish to proceed with. Even Club isn't going there. You are indeed promoting a false witness - especially since you're not even local at my church to even know what is going on here. Sad and disappointing, really. Blessings anyway, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
JoeMo Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Quote: Those who are weak in faith - the very ones you profess to be protecting - would look at your posts and conclude you are promoting the very thing that drives them away - striving to win an argument by beating another person's words about SoP into the context you want to perceive them in.Straw man arguments and appeal to authority fallacies used against another are no way to demonstrate the Gospel to people who may be on the brink of walking out of the church. Amen, Ted! If I were searching for God and read some of rude, judgemental and condemning posts on here that don't even adress the subject - that just twist other's words and trow out out-of-context quotes, it definitely drive me away. Thank God for some members here that live in the real world and use reason and logic rather than intimidation and straw men. If I may be so brazen as to quote another member here: "I think we can all agree on that"
ClubV12 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Ted you may think "people" can see holes in Bob's analysis, that should say "some people". I concur with Bob's analysis, it is reasonable and logical, as I have said all along. Not wanting to stir the pot here, but I want to be clear on where I stand with this issue. JoeMo, it is true that some EGW quotes here can be seen as out of context. But context is in the eye of the beholder, just as bible verses can be taken out of context. One man sees this, another that. I see YOUR last post as "rude, judgemental and condemning" with a spiteful and apparent anger. I certainly don't see that in any of Bobs posts.
JoeMo Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 No Offense meant Club; but I must side with Ted ans far as reasonableness goes. I know it's a subjective matter. You're right - Bob's posts are seldom angry; but they are frequently condescending. And IMO he looks for the dark cloud within the silver lining on any post that disagrees with his own. He is not alone in that category. I did read over my previous post; and maybe it is a somewhat spiteful. I do apologize for that. Maybe I need to breathe and count to ten before I post some stuff, too. You calling me out on it was a reasonable thing to do - I could have said what I said in a kinder way.
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books, John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Ted you may think "people" can see holes in Bob's analysis, that should say "some people". I concur with Bob's analysis, it is reasonable and logical, as I have said all along. Not wanting to stir the pot here, but I want to be clear on where I stand with this issue. JoeMo, it is true that some EGW quotes here can be seen as out of context. But context is in the eye of the beholder, just as bible verses can be taken out of context. One man sees this, another that. I see YOUR last post as "rude, judgemental and condemning" with a spiteful and apparent anger. I certainly don't see that in any of Bobs posts. Club and Bob - both of you got tangled up over a phrase of mine. Both of you decided within yourselves to put the worst possible slant to it, rather than giving the courtesy of asking for clarification. Both of you took this thread off topic to discuss this. When I explained my position, both of you continued to cherry-pick - even the in-context Testimonies I unfolded on this thread were not too sacred for your practice. You both have dug into your positions, unwilling to concede. I further related my personal experience and my current church outreach - which negated the very premise you both have proceeded on. Club - I took your last post yesterday to be of the spirit that while you agreed with Bob's POV, you saw the possibility that it was misunderstanding and miscommunication that was the underlying problem, and that it would be a fruitless venture to continue pursuing. I know full well where and with who your sentiments lie. Do not take my post above to mean I think you see things from my POV. Bob - Your posts have been extremely rude and judgmental. They indicate a person not willing to give another the benefit of the doubt, nor accept the testimony of their experience, as it is only your POV that matters. While Club has agreed to your analysis, it appeared he was not willing to continue a fruitless argument. You, on the other hand, continue to pull this thread off topic pursuing your Don Quixote quests. When I spoke against people using SoP as an addition to the Bible, pounding people over the head with Ellen White - this was denied. Yet, as this unfolds, people are getting a vivid portrayal of you participating in just such a spirit. Both and Club entertain the notion you both are holding to the defense of SoP against a current of opinion wishing to dispense with it. You have stood ready to attribute the merest of words as proof of that very thing - even against contrary evidence. Unfortunately for you, though, I have had to deal with this attitude and mentality before. All that needs be done here, is to allow you - and Club, should he want to rejoin the effort - to continue shooting yourself in the foot, and you may demonstrate in your posts to be the very thing you profess does not exist, all in the effort to "win" in attributing to me a position on SoP which, by both profession and by evidence, clearly is not mine at all. Prevailing in the point - that's all that matters, isn't it? This is indeed becoming a vivid demonstration of why some people are leaving the SDA Church for non-SDA doctrine - particularly our youth. They are turned off by the increasing judgmentalism of those deeming themselves "defenders of the gift of prophecy" in these last days. Carry on, and Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger Yes, Bob, in the opening paragraphs of this section, Ellen is herself pointing AWAY from her own works, and TO the word of God. She is quite clear to this point in declaring her writings to be a very specific tool God uses to bring people TO His word; He does not design His people to remain in EGW's words, but to move on to His own words. Ellen herself is the biggest proponent of that thought, and that thought is found wherever one reads what she herself has clearly stated the role of her work to be. And you take issue with me for declaring that thought, Bob? Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger Bob - you're getting to the point of going solo with your belief in this argument. My "solo" is inclusive of your own statements. Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger Club and Bob - both of you got tangled up over a phrase of mine. Both of you decided within yourselves to put the worst possible slant to it, rather than giving the courtesy of asking for clarification. Both of you took this thread off topic to discuss this. When I explained my position, both of you continued to cherry-pick - even the in-context Testimonies I unfolded on this thread were not too sacred for your practice. You both have dug into your positions, unwilling to concede. I further related my personal experience and my current church outreach - which negated the very premise you both have proceeded on. [/quote'] I have simply pointed you to your own words which you now say is contradicted by your own posts subsequent to a few of those quotes from you. As I stated before - there is a note of cognitive dissonance in your comments as you seem to want to have it "both ways". You gave an example of young adults "relieved" to find out they did not have to listen to what God said in his warnings given to Ellen White. Some would see that as "consistent" with your claim that she is the biggest fan of pointing people "away from her books" - all the while you claim to hold her writings as inspired of God. The reason that this point fits well into the issue of doctrinal confusion being the #1 issue for SDAs leaving the church - is that these "have it both ways" kinds of statements coming from a Bible teacher or leader in the church are designed to create doctrinal confusion - though probably/hopefully not intentionally designed to do it. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger you pull my words out of context as "proof" I have showered disrespect upon SoP. I don't use words like "disrespect" - that is your term. I simply "quote you" talking about Ellen white being " the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books" "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
ClubV12 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 About a 100 years after the early Church was formed and the "pioneers" had passed away, the standards of "membership" were lowered. To appeal to a wider range of people and make it easier for them to become members. That was a fatal mistake that led to the early Church loosing it's value and it's mission. We, Seventh-day Adventists are making the same mistake today. We are more interested in getting more members than we are holding the standards high. I'm not concerned about people leaving nearly as much as I'm concerned about people staying and understanding what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. This is why, in some cases, I have simply repeated what Ellen White has said about this: "The Church is better off without them." Paraphrased, "dont let the door hit your backside on the way out." Harsh? So is eternal death. When does this apply? Well that is the question, but it IS a question that NEEDS to be asked and considered. Ted, there are a number of people who support your position that are NOT active and supporting members of the Church. Some show open disdain and ridicule the Church. Are you even vaguely aware of this Ted? I support the quotes you have posted because they are inspired. I wish you the best. That doesn't mean I agree with what your doing, I don't! This is wrong Ted, not the time or the place or the way.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 About a 100 years after the early Church was formed and the "pioneers" had passed away, the standards of "membership" were lowered. To appeal to a wider range of people and make it easier for them to become members. That was a fatal mistake that led to the early Church loosing it's value and it's mission. We, Seventh-day Adventists are making the same mistake today. We are more interested in getting more members than we are holding the standards high. I'm not concerned about people leaving nearly as much as I'm concerned about people staying and understanding what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. This is why, in some cases, I have simply repeated what Ellen White has said about this: "The Church is better off without them." Paraphrased, "dont let the door hit your backside on the way out." Harsh? So is eternal death. When does this apply? Well that is the question, but it IS a question that NEEDS to be asked and considered. According to history, only certain churches had that issue - not all of them, and the point of dropping truth for error for the sake of converts did not begin in earnest until after Jerusalem's complete destruction in 150 AD, leaving Ephesus, Smyrna, and Corinth as the major Christian centers...churches largely composed of, and reaching out to, Gentiles. Even among the Gentile congregations, though, many did hold to the truth - until they had to go underground. Whether the SDA's policies, from the GC down, allow for the watering down of our doctrines for the sake of gaining numbers, is certainly a valid question to be asked. There is certainly an appearance of that, gauging by the perspectives of some. Regardless, though, the more pertinent question becomes for us, "What is the proper way to tend and win over those whom it is thought are brought by such "watering down"? If it is the thought of "erring on the side of mercy" which these are brought into the church with, what is the best way to tend these lambs? Too often, we see the truth/error as an issue of accepting the proper exegesis of the Word. Christ sees it in the value of a single human life - even the most vile of human beings is worth the value of the Son of God, dying on the cross for our sins. So how do we treat those, for whom Christ has placed such a high value upon? "The Church is better without them" Without who? I'd prefer to see that quote's context. An understandable point, I might add. It is just like the usage of 1 John 2:19 - misused over and again to justify one's self after someone considered "worldly" has fled the church - or is pushed out. Too many times, SDA's have the expectation that someone coming out of the baptismal font should behave as a mature, adult in Christ - when in fact they are but a toddler barely able to walk. Having said their vows, these newbies are expected to "know" every single nuance the vow could conceivably cover, when in fact, they have only just begun to scratch the surface of their walk. As they grow in their understanding, and begin feeling out the facets of the issues of our day, there is an allowance to grow and learn why things are a certain way around many SDA's. Unfortunately, there are also those who see this process as a compromising worldliness that needs to be driven away. When such are successful in driving the learning lambs away, it is very often quoted, "The Church is better off without them", and 1 John 2:19 referred to. Harsh assessment? Maybe. But which is more preferrable: doctrinal purity, or faith working through love? The recipients of the letter found in Revelation 2:1-7 might have some input on that question...as that letter covers precisely the early Church era, who had the problem of maintaining the standards amid the rising tide of error. Some today want today the same thing the Ephesians did - doctrinal purity against the false teachers; Christ wants truth to prevail, as well - but He is more concerned with how truth prevails. That is something the rank and file within the SDA church struggles with today. Would we not be spewed from His mouth, only to have our lamp stand taken away from us? Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted April 19, 2013 Members Posted April 19, 2013 Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
CoAspen Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Quote: We, Seventh-day Adventists are making the same mistake today. We are more interested in getting more members than we are holding the standards high. Again, you make allegations so broad that you can't reasonably expect them to hold up! You do not have facts to support the allegation, just an opinion. You do not define the 'high standards' not being met or watered down. Are they standards you believe should be present, but not met or some written standard of the .org? Quote: I'm not concerned about people leaving nearly as much as I'm concerned about people staying and understanding what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Really? Do you not see a connection between leaving and understanding? If you are not concerned about the 'reasons' for leaving, you do not have a clue as to how that should be addressed. To continue down the same road with out understanding of others concerns and issues but mearly 'preaching' in the same manner/attitude of this is what you must do, is doomed to failure. You deny the person and who they are, thier struggles, their needs. With in The church or outside the church, it is about others, not ourselves. It is not up to us to change their hearts, but That of the "Holy Spirit".
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 <big grins> Thanks for putting a little good-natured ribbing into the picture. Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
OzarkWoman Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Too many times, SDA's have the expectation that someone coming out of the baptismal font should behave as a mature, adult in Christ - when in fact they are but a toddler barely able to walk. Having said their vows, these newbies are expected to "know" every single nuance the vow could conceivably cover, when in fact, they have only just begun to scratch the surface of their walk. Thank you so much for saying what you said. What you posted is truth and even some in this forum have a hard time understanding that fact. Thank you again for understanding!!!
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Quote: We, Seventh-day Adventists are making the same mistake today. We are more interested in getting more members than we are holding the standards high. Again, you make allegations so broad that you can't reasonably expect them to hold up! You do not have facts to support the allegation, just an opinion. You do not define the 'high standards' not being met or watered down. Are they standards you believe should be present, but not met or some written standard of the .org? "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
ClubV12 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Principles must be applied, if every detail has to be spelled out you wouldn't believe though one rose from the dead! "The Church is better off without them." Those who openly fight against the Church and preach false doctrine on one hand. Those who lower the standard of what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist on the other. But if you must have details and the letter of the law, as the Jews were so fond of, then we have the Church manual. It spells out the detail you seek. We have many who post here who have removed their membership from the Church in protest, fine, go your way in peace, we should not be distracted by them. Others have been removed from membership, always sad, but it must be done for their own good. Don't let your children play in the street principle. I know of a few cases where WHOLE CHURCHES have been removed from the denomination! Some are trying to figure out how to get back, they want back in, but they also want to hold on to their pecular ideas and theology that is not consistent with our faith. They cannot be accepted back (don't let your children...). HERE on this forum what I find is that we have a LOT of members that are marginalized toward the Church. They are not sure what they support and what they don't. They believe some doctrine but not all. The believe Ellen White, but only up to a certain point. They detest anyone that quotes Ellen White on: Suger, coffee, football, Church raffles, Church amusement and many other Church related entertainment functions. And they get substantial support from the other members of "laodecia". The fanatics are correct when they say, "The Church is in apostasy", it is, big time! Their response, they remove their membership. OR, they use Ellen White to insist YOU must STOP whatever is your doing. And their right, what they say is true. But most say those are "fanatics" and they use Ellen White like a hammer. That too is true, but it doesn't change her testimony. The response to that is the problem. How do YOU respond to the close cutting counsel of the prophet? As for me, I have tasted and seen the Lord is good! I recognize their IS a blessing in following the counsel. NOT so I can "be saved", but because I see the beauty in it! Fanatics don't, like John Wesley, they think this HAS to be done or they will be lost. Which is also true, by the way. Wesley eventually found the balance and accepted righteousness by faith, but he still kept the law in detail and "methodically" (Methodist). Somewhere in all this mess there is a balance, but it is hidden, it's a treasure each will have to find on their own. Ted, I believe you are a victim of "growing up Adventist". Like many others, you have seen Ellen White used as a "hammer" for so long it bothers and upsets you and you feel compelled to speak up. As many do, are doing and have done. But the "hammer" IS FACTUALLY CORRECT. Football, coffee, etc. etc. REALLY ARE problems. There is a blessing for those who take the counsel seriously, a curse for those who ignore it. Thats reality.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Ted, there are a number of people who support your position that are NOT active and supporting members of the Church. Some show open disdain and ridicule the Church. Are you even vaguely aware of this Ted? I support the quotes you have posted because they are inspired. I wish you the best. That doesn't mean I agree with what your doing, I don't! This is wrong Ted, not the time or the place or the way. I am aware of that fact, Club. I am also aware of the fact some are also very firm members of the faith, like me, have active ministries in their local churches and elsewhere, who DO support what I have said. I am also aware that those showing open disdain and ridicule for the Church may well seize upon my words - such would do so ANYWAY, for that is their nature. Do you not know such would more likely seize upon the "concern" of you and Bob for heaping even further disdain and ridicule upon a Church they see as devoid of the Christ-like love so stridently professed? A Church you both portray as more concerned with being "right" than being Christ-like? I also wish you and Bob the best. Whether I have your agreement or not matters little to me - I would not have your praise or affirmation in place of God's. You can disagree with time, place, and way all you wish, Club. Do you not know that Matthew 18:15-17, put in practice by faith working through love, required you and Bob to take up the issue of my phrase by PM in private first, instead of spilling out the hash before those who would ridicule the church? Whose standards? Yours? or Christ's? Rather, isn't it really about something you both perceived, then assumed - so away you both went in the thread? As the occasion was used to also question whether my theology would be trustworthy or not, such a stand would be held up by these you speak of as even more reason to ridicule and hold in spite the Church. From these observations, it is not a stretch to conclude you and Bob are clueless as to your own negative contributions to the issues you profess to care about. Indeed, wishing you and Bob all the best, as you both are souls as prized by God as I am - and as those you deem "out there". Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
ClubV12 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 "Many of the Sabbathkeeping Adventists in ----- have been very weak. They have been miserable representatives of the truth. They have not been an honor to the cause of present truth, and the cause would have been better off without them." Testimonies for the Church, Volume 2 pg 109 She also refers to unconsecrated ministers and students in our schools (where the school would be better off), and others. To protect the high standards of the Church. Ted says, "I am also aware that those showing open disdain and ridicule for the Church may well seize upon my words - such would do so ANYWAY, for that is their nature." As we talked about earlier I completely agree with this. But that does excuse a careful application of time, place and the people you are presenting to. Lest you become a stumbling block while actually presenting truth! I have not yet decided whether all of the theology you present, Ted, is trust worthy or not. I am certainly in "caution mode" now. As I am with many ministers. Even Stephen Bohr, whom I greatly respect, but...
Ted Oplinger Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Principles must be applied, if every detail has to be spelled out you wouldn't believe though one rose from the dead! "The Church is better off without them." Those who openly fight against the Church and preach false doctrine on one hand. Those who lower the standard of what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist on the other. But if you must have details and the letter of the law, as the Jews were so fond of, then we have the Church manual. It spells out the detail you seek. "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
JoeMo Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Quote: Club, I looked at these first two sentences, and wondered. You have taken such liberty to define me, not knowing really who I am or where I come from. Ted, you make an important point here. There is an active poster here on CA that I used to go round and round with. We were so busy fighting with each other and misunderstanding each other that the animonsity between us just kept growing. He reached out to me recently in a PM, inviting me to just talk like friends ang get to know each other. We traded several PMs; and guess what? This guy is a great person! As we have shared with each other, we have discovered that we are not as polarized as our posts would have indicated. No; we still don't agree on everything doctrinal. But that seems so minor compared to our budding friendship that we discuss things as friends now - with open minds and trust - rather than as adversaries in a public argument. It's really nice!
JoeMo Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 In thinking about my previous post, I think that not being able to find real freinds in the church is at least as big of an issue as disagreement with doctrine. In case you haven't noticed, I have some rather "eccentric" theological views. This has sometimes prevented me from having real social interactions with people at church. Yeah, we make small talk while wearing our "church faces" on Sabbath; but we rarely get together outside of that. (the exception is the 5-person small group I belong to. I LOVE our small group!) I used to see it at my old church all the time. The only time people ever saw each other was at church. Newcomers would finally give up and go to another church (usually a Sunday keeping denomination). In some cases, we SDA's talk a good story; but when it comes to showing love (I'm talking social interaction here; not rebuke and correction), we fall short. Right or wrong,church is a great social outlet as well as a venue for public worship and instruction. If people can't find both, they may take off for friendlier grounds.
BobRyan Posted April 19, 2013 Author Posted April 19, 2013 Do you not know such would more likely seize upon the "concern" of you and Bob for heaping even further disdain and ridicule upon a Church Are you saying you have some quote from me where I claim to disdain or ridicule the Seventh-day Adventist church? Or are you just saying you wish you had such a statement from me? John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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