Beyond Belief: X-SDAs leaving for non-SDA doctrine

[joeb]

OzarkWoman,

Are you still reading here? If so give me an answer as I may have something for you that you may want to try.

[BobRyan]

Churches in my conference have had to disallow certain individuals from coming to church when all they have done is be disruptive and try to pull members right out of the church from the foyer to come to meetings where they tear down the church.

Churches in my conference have been instructed by conference leaders not to allow certain elders to lead out in a Bible study or speak from the pulpit because they are not licensed ministers - approved by this local conference.

Pretty sad actually. But free will is being exercised by those who have heavy handed control of some of the churches.

Still I know that God will turn and overturn and the very people that certain administrators would love to ignore will be given a platform to proclaim the 28 Fundamental Beliefs no matter the opposition they may find in one corner or another of this particular conference. And in the end - this conference is a pretty good one all things said and done.

So although only a few conferences can hold a candle to the bright light of the Michigan Conference, still this one is not doing too bad over all.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books,

[BobRyan]

So how then does the situation get so bent around as to try and coopt Ellen White into the work of "turning people away from the Testimonies" to the point of claiming she was foremost in doing it?

Here is the principle that yields that result.

Quote:

Words Wrested and Misunderstood—It seems impossible for me to be understood by those who have had the light but have not walked in it. What I might say in private conversations would be so repeated as to make it mean exactly opposite to what it would have meant had the hearers been sanctified in mind and spirit. I am afraid to speak even to my friends; for afterwards I hear, Sister White said this, or Sister White said that. {3SM 82.4}

My words are so wrested and misinterpreted that I am coming to the conclusion that the Lord desires me to keep out of large assemblies and refuse private interviews. What I say is reported in such a perverted light that it is new and strange to me. It is mixed with words spoken by men to sustain their own theories.—Letter 139, 1900. {3SM 82.5}

Trifling With the Messages—Frequently I do not anticipate saying the things I do say when I am speaking before the people. God may give me words of reproof, of warning, or encouragement as he sees fit, for the benefit of souls. I shall speak these words, and they may cut across the track of my brethren, whom I sincerely love and respect in the truth. {3SM 81.1}

I expect to have these words distorted, misapprehended by unbelievers, and it is no surprise to me. But to have my brethren, who are acquainted with my mission and my work, trifle with the message that God gives me to bear, grieves his Spirit. {3SM 81.2}

It is discouraging to me to have them pick out portions in the testimonies that please them which they construe to justify their own course of action and give the impression that that portion they accept as the voice of God, and then when other testimonies come that bring rebuke upon their course, when words are spoken that do not coincide with their opinions and judgment, they dishonor God’s work by saying, “Oh, this we do not accept—it is only Sister White’s opinion, and it is no better than my opinion or that of anyone else.”—Letter 3, 1889. {3SM 81.3}

Watching for Words on Which Human Interpretation Is Placed—I am sensible of the fact that I am mortal, and that I must guard my physical, mental, and moral powers. The constant changing from place to place necessitated by travel, and the taking hold of public labor wherever I have gone, have been too much for me, in addition to the writings that I have been preparing day and night as the Lord has worked my mind by his Holy Spirit. {3SM 81.4}

And when I am meeting with evidences that these communications will be treated by some in accordance with the human judgment of those who shall receive them, when I realize that some are watching keenly for some words which have been traced by my pen and upon which they can place their human interpretations in order to sustain their positions and to justify a wrong course of action—when I think of these things, it is not very encouraging to continue writing. {3SM 81.5}

Some of these who are certainly reproved, strive to make every word vindicate their own statements. The twistings and connivings and misrepresentations and misapplications of the Word are marvelous! Persons are linked together in this work. What one does not think of, another mind supplies.—Letter 172, 1906. {3SM 82.1}

So it is clear that "the details" do not support the wild sweeping claims of some. As we drift closer to the standard of low-Bible-information-Christianity almost any assertion will be entertained no matter the lack of evidence to support it.

The Bible calls that "being blown around by every wind of doctrine".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

My question for the group is - how do you suggest that we deal with the 2011 doctrinal confusion problem that by now would far surpass the 50% mark based on an average increase from 1998 to 2011. (Aside from hollow attacks against Ellen White of course)

in Christ,

Bob

[LynnDel]

The internet is full of anti-SDA-doctrine propaganda. Do you think that access to these sites is at all responsible for the marked increase?

[ClubV12]

It certainly plays a roll. As does THIS forum as a tool for Adventist "posers" to come here and preach their false doctrine. Yet, the truth can also be found here, there are some preaching solid Adventist doctrine.

So how does one searching for truth know the difference if they are here trying to learn? People are very thankful for what they have learned around here, I worry about just WHAT they have learned they THINK is truth!

It has been my experience you may not find serious answers to serious questions within your local Church. Because people don't know the doctrines that well. A LOT of Adventists are on the fence about whether they even have confidence in the Church or not. "Newbies" pick up on this quickly, the uncertainity and difficulty finding real answers, the constant negative talk, is very frustrating. Easier to just walk away...

OR, you can pick up the shovel and start digging for the treasure, not many will undertake the task. They go so far, are well pleased and then tell others, "That doctrine or theology point is not relevant to salvation, don't worry about it." Well it's relevant to ME and your blowing off my questions. Why are you doing that? What are you hiding? Are you people following cunningly devised fables or not?

I don't know about others, but these were the questions I was asking and not getting answers. I was "this close" to walking out myself.

[Ted Oplinger]

Bob,

You may continue to cherry pick EGW all you want, to say all those things you think ought carry the weight of her presence. It does not change the fact Ellen dedicated an entire section in Testimonies, vol 5, pp 654-691 (specifically, Testimonies 33, "Nature and Influence of the Testimonies"), to this specific issue. I need not skip around and pick a quote here, and a quote there; I need only for Ellen herself to build my case for me from her words put in the heart of the Testimonies: it is the key to unlocking what appears difficult, just as God placed the Sabbath in the heart of the 10 Commandments as the key to obedience to His Law. God is indeed consistent in how He works.

I am of the opinion most people her are adults, and have at least rubrics of searching on the web well-understood. If someone wants to know why I say a certain thing, they are always free to ask. That said, I find it quite counterproductive engage in arguments.

I am also of the experience that most people approaching the EGW issue as you have done so, do so not from a position of Christian sincerity, but rather with the desire to bicker and quibble. I find it quite troubling that there are some in the Remnant who continue to wage war with others over EGW's writings with a narrow mindset, rather than build up the brethren as we are taught we must. I do hope you are not one of these.

I do not feel there is the need, in this day and age, for me to quote the whole length of that section of Testimony 33. All one needs is either the hard copy, or an electronic version, of Testimonies 5, and look it up themselves, for in reading the words of this section does the Lord bring conviction on how to handle the words He gave through His humble messenger. The subsection's titles alone ought give pause to Adventists to carefully consider how they handle her writings.

The introduction part gives her reasoning as to why she wrote the Testimonies - because she was keenly aware of the responsibility the Lord had placed upon her in being the messenger of the Lord.

The first subsection is titled "Personal Testimonies", where Ellen discusses at length the personal Testimonies (i.e., the ones detailing "Brother A" or "Sister B") are meant for those they are written to AND to those the Lord personally convicts as having the same dangerous sin - but they are not universal to all. P. 658 contains this passage:

Quote:

"But dreams from the Lord are classed in the word of God with visions and are truly the fruits of the spirit of prophecy as visions."

Does that mean everything in the Testimonies is equal to the Scriptures? No, it does not - by her own words, though there are some Adventists which wrest this passage, and many others, out of their context to say just that.

The context of that passage is set by the introductory sentence:

Quote:

"There are many dreams arising from the common things of life with which the Spirit of God has nothing to do. There are also false dreams, as well as false visions, which are inspired by the spirit of Satan."

So the context is not one of declaring her Testimonies as being the word of God applicable to all, but in how the ones given by God are indeed separate from, and bear a decidedly different fruit, than common dreams or false dreams/visions. The next paragraph (pp 658-659) begins thus...

Quote:

"Since the warning and instruction given in the testimony for individual cases applied with equal force to many others who had not been specifically pointed out in this manner, it seemed to be my duty to publish the personal testimonies for the benefit of the church.

"

I look at the words contained therein: applied with equal force to many others - does not mean all others, but to the ones the Lord would direct that reproof to, just as He had directed the testimony to a specific person (or persons). God is the arbiter of who those personal testimonies apply to, not EGW, nor any Adventist. That point is driven home within the paragraph again following (p 659):

Quote:

"When the Lord singles out individual cases and specifies their wrongs, others, who have been shown in vision, frequently take it for granted they are right, or nearly so. If one is reproved for a special wrong. brethren and sisters should carefully examine themselves to see wherein they have failed and wherein they have been guilty of the same sin. They should possess the spirit of humble confession. If others think them right, it does not make them so. God looks at the heart. He is proving and testing souls in this manner. In rebuking the wrong of one, He designs to correct many. But if they fail to take the reproof to themselves, and flatter themselves that God passes over their errors because God does not especially single them out, they deceive their own souls and will be shut up in darkness and be left to their own ways to follow the imaginations of their own hearts."

It is God who makes the application of the testimony to whom He applies it to - Ellen's writings are applicable only to those who open themselves up to consider if that testimony applies to themselves, not whether one thinks they apply to another person. That is the specific difference between Ellen's writings and Scripture: Scripture is universally applicable (all words equally to every person equally), where Ellen's writings are individually applicable on the case-by-case basis, as God appoints them.

That is just how I treat them for mine own walk, and encourage those I interact with to use them.

Bob, this much alone settles your untenable accusation I am undermining and pointing people away from the Testimonies. I would humbly submit, Bob, that you go back and read this specific testimony in a spirit of humble confession.

While what is present ought to be enough, your post would indicate you would not satisfied with what is presented - you would wish for many, many quotes - so I will go further into the same chapter.

The next subsection is titled "Object of the "Testimonies"", where she opens with these words (p 661):

Quote:

"In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit."

It would appear we are once again back at the point of these writings being equal authority as the Scripture...but she herself has already broached that point in the previous subsection, so we are not at liberty to snip these words (or any other words of hers) out of context to mean that. The object of the testimonies is found in the next sentence:

Quote:

"There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and course He would have them pursue".

The object is to bring people back to the point where the Lord can earnestly instruct out of His Word those who would be His people concerning His will and direction. That is Ellen's ministry in a nutshell sentence. What is more, these Testimonies are not given so that we may smack each other over the head with them, but for the purpose of building up the people of God. Pp 661-2 has these words:

Quote:

"Warnings and reproofs are not given to the erring among Seventh-day Adventists because their lives are more blameworthy than are the lives of professed Christians of the nominal churches, nor because their example of their acts are worse than those of the Adventists who will not yield obedience to the claims of God's law, but because they have great light, and have by their profession taken their position as God's special, chosen people, having the law of God written in their hearts."

Not because of being better than or worse than those inside or outside Seventh-day Adventism are these given, but because even the erring have been given great light and have taken their stand with God. God wishes to build them up; who is the one wishing to tear down? That one does not participate in the tenor of the Testimonies (P 662 continues):

Quote:

"The Lord reproves and corrects the people who profess to keep His law. He points out their sins and lays open their iniquity because He wishes to separate all sin and wickedness from them, that they may perfect holiness in His fear."

The overriding claim of the Lord is to build up His people by removing all sin from them. He does so through His word, whether through the universally applicable Scriptures, or in the case-by-case pointing in the Testimonies. The love of the Lord for those He died to redeem is so great He will use whatever means that work in order to separate sin from His people (P 662 continues):

Quote:

"I have been looking over the Testimonies given for Sabbathkeepers and I am astonished at the mercy of God and His care for His people, in giving so many warnings, pointing out their dangers, and presenting before them the exalted position which He would have them occupy"

Here, we have yet another application point: the Testimonies are given for the Sabbathkeepers - and are not intended for general application toward all people, nor even of Christendom. That is yet another reason I do not voluminously quote EGW - because there are a many frequenters here which do not have the background sufficient enough to understand why the testimonies are given, who the are for, and how they should be used. I would also add a good many Adventists lack this background as well.

Next, the Testimonies are an evidence of God's mercy and grace, with the ultimate design of bringing His people up to an exalted position before God - and not stripping that away from others we simply do not agree with.

This post is long enough. I continue in the next, with the subsection, "NOT TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THE BIBLE".

Blessings,

[CoAspen]

A very good summation!

[ClubV12]

I don't know Ted, I certainly understand and share Bobs concern on this issue. The Testimonies are under attack and openly questioned as to their value and inspiration.

At THIS time I see the Church needs to put considerably more emphasis on and the more frequent use of this gift. The official Church position on this is well established as to the roll the gift plays in conjunction with the bible, there is no mystery there.

The mystery is, HOW come Adventists consistently discount and minimize the gift of prophecy? WHY do they continue to dwell on how other people use it to abuse it? You can't stop anyone from doing that and the end result has been anyone that quotes Ellen White is challenged and denigrated for "over use".

We need MORE, not less of the gift! The wise will understand and find the balance. The skeptics are operating under delusion and theres very little you can do for them anyway.

Ted, I really believe the fruit of your work on this issue will only add fuel to the fires of unbelief in the gift.

[JoeMo]

I agree with CoAspen, Ted - excellent, articulate, well though-out, and balanced summation. I think this would probably apply the the misunderstanding going on in the "A Question of Balance" thread as well.

[ClubV12]

Of course you agree with CoAspen JoeMo, you have made it clear you question the gift AND the Church.

Consider the fruit, Ted...

[JoeMo]

Club,

For the record, I do NOT question the gift of prophecy. 1Corinthians chapters 12 and 14 make it very clear that prophecy is one the the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Christian church - in fact it is a "more excellent" gift.

[ClubV12]

JoeMo, lets DO be clear, as you well know...

We are talking about the gift of prophecy as demonstrated in the work of Ellen White, a member of the official Seventh-day Adventist Church.

[JoeMo]

I will try to be perfectly clear. I DO believe that EGW had an amazing gift of prophecy. I routinely use material from her Contraversy Series when preparing SS lessons that I teach.

In the interest of disclosure, I do not believe:

1. that she has exclusive rights to that gift

2. that the SDA Church has exclusive rights to that gift

3. that all of her writings and testimonies apply to everyone

4. that her writings carry an authority equal to that of scripture.

If that is not clear enough, please advise.

FYI Club, I think your question here is perfectly legitimate. And I honor your right to disagree with me. I also claim my right to be wrong and/or to change my mind upon sufficient evidence.

[CoAspen]

Of course you agree with CoAspen JoeMo, you have made it clear you question the gift AND the Church.

Consider the fruit, Ted...

If you disagree with Ted, than state why and not go after other people for agreeing with his post. By the way, many of your posts question the church/leaders so not sure what comment has to do with anything.

[ClubV12]

Perfectly clear JoeMo and consistent with other comments you have made concerning your lack of faith in the work of EG White Estate and the organized Seventh-day Adventist position on the work of Ellen White.

As she noted, belief in the gift will not be the final issue and it is to THAT point that this thread speaks. The warning, given by the Father through His servant, Ellen White was not that people would deny the gift, but they would make it no effect by subtle questions and comments relative to it's inspiration.

Statements that help to fulfill the prophecy of making the gift of litte effect:

I believe the parts I want to believe. She never claimed she couldn't make a mistake, which is CONSISTENT with EVERY prophet who came before her! Moses made mistake as well as Paul. Some decided what parts of the counsel were "her opinion", like Paul, she makes it clear what is and isn't her opinion. Paul also offered his opinion on marriage, and noted it was his opinion. The counsel was for her time, so was Pauls! The principles in both cases are timeless. No reasonable person questions what "your ox in the ditch" really means. Her counsel doesn't square with modern science. Neither did Noah's counsel, but it rained anyway.

People place her work above the bible. Urban myth. I have yet to meet ONE person that acutally believes that! It is NOT the official position of the EG White Estate or the Church. It remains, rumor and gossip, more, it is an oft repeated lie without foundation. We see it AGAIN in this very thread!!! Reality check, show me ONE person who actually believes that and will actually say that, TED.

[ClubV12]

Church leaders often make mistakes and are no gaurentee of establishing truthful doctrine, sadly that is reality. What to do then? Simple, consider what the OFFICIAL position of the Church is on the point in question!

Pastor says this, or that. DOES it square with the G.C. official position? If not, you must reject it. Just like I reject MUCH of the false doctrine offered on THIS forum!

[Ted Oplinger]

The next section is titled "NOT TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THE BIBLE", one which many quoters of Ellen White do but gloss over, and do not feel applies to themselves.

It opens on p 663, rather plainly worded: "That the Testimonies were not given to take the place of the Bible, the following extract from a testimony published in 1876 will show:", which is followed immediately by a quote from Testimonies, vol 4, p 246:

Quote:

"Brother J would confuse the mind by seeking to make it appear that the light God has given through the Testimonies is an addition to the word of God, but he presents the matter in a false light. God has seen fit in this manner to bring the minds of His people to His word, to given them clearer understanding of it."

Whereupon, we immediately have a couple of guide points: 1) Ellen herself clearly declares her words are not an addition to Scripture, and 2) Ellen herself does not call her writings the words of God, nor puts them as having the same authority - they are as she has declared: God-given light, so that His people may go to His word for a clearer understanding.

She immediately follows that with a quote from Testimonies, vol 2, p 455:

Quote:

"The word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the word of God their study are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the word that they have neglected to follow."

In short, Ellen bluntly states the word of God - not the word of God plus the Testimonies, but the word of God alone - is sufficient. She then repeats again the focal point of every testimony, every passage she has written: to bring people back to His word.

What is the purpose of His word, as she relates it? To separate His people from sin, and build them up to that exalted position He wants His people to occupy, as I build upon what she has already stated earlier in this chapter.

Ellen herself does not give the purpose of her words as to build up God's people, but to bring them to His word for that purpose. This is far different from the way I see many use her words: as canonical authority equal to the Scriptures for ordering one's life. She decries this usage with the next words (pp 663-664):

Quote:

"The word of God abounds in general principles for the formation of correct habits of living, and the testimonies, general and personal, have been calculated to call their attention more especially to these principles."

This wasn't the first time she penned those words - she quotes her own writings from Testimonies, vol 4, p 323. She saw the need that even then, she needed to again reiterate the purpose of her writings, even less than 20 years after she wrote the quote in vol 2, and 10 years after vol. 4. Even then, people misunderstood and misused Ellen White's words, taking them outside the designated role God placed them in.

Her writings are to bring people TO God's word for work; they are NOT God's word doing the work.

Yes, Bob, in the opening paragraphs of this section, Ellen is herself pointing AWAY from her own works, and TO the word of God. She is quite clear to this point in declaring her writings to be a very specific tool God uses to bring people TO His word; He does not design His people to remain in EGW's words, but to move on to His own words.

Ellen herself is the biggest proponent of that thought, and that thought is found wherever one reads what she herself has clearly stated the role of her work to be. And you take issue with me for declaring that thought, Bob?

Let's continue more on this path, shall we?

Pp 664-665 detail a dream Ellen had on April 30, 1871, about a large company assembled, obviously burdened in prayer, and importuning the Lord for special light. The Spirit of the Lord came upon her with a rather long response to this situation. It begins with this passage on p 664:

Quote:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. I feel urged to say to you that you must commence to work individually for yourselves. You are looking to God and desiring Him to to do the work for you which He has left for you to do. If you will do the work for yourselves which you know that you ought to do, then God will help you where you need help. You have left undone the very things God has left for you to do. You have been calling upon God to do your work. Had you followed the light which He has given you, then He would cause more light to shine upon you; but while you neglect the counsels, warnings, and reproofs that have been given, how can you expect God to give more light and blessings to neglect and despise? God is not a man; He will not be trifled with."

Ellen here is giving a clear-cut example of what she had just written - the role of her words and that of God's. In this passage, Psalms 119:105 comes to mind: "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Whose words? God's.

Here, she by the Spirit rebukes a "large company" of believers. Why? because they are not diligent in their digging within the Word to find that which they are praying for: special light. They want God to wave some special wand that would automatically endow these believers with the desired special light without having to work for it. Here, the Lord through Ellen White re-affirms His principle: if a man will not work, neither will he eat (2 Thess 3:10); as it is in the physical world, so it is in the spiritual. Those not willing to work for the Bread of Life do not eat of it, nor should they expect to.

The work Ellen speaks of is not the work of going through her writings, but of going to the Bible and digging deep there - obeying the light God gives there. She then turns with a stunning rebuke: if one neglects and despises what God has currently given, why should you expect God to be as an indulgent Father to give more?

My personal take on that is that should we despise what God has given through Ellen White, and despise the role God has designed it to be by lifting it out to be something God never designed it for, we ought not expect God to bless even our daily devotions in His word. As we treat EGW's writings, so also would we treat God's word itself. If one will not treat EGW's writings as God deigns them to be treated, it is a sure indication one cannot be trusted to treat God's word correctly, either.

Ellen continues her dream's message in pp 664-665:

Quote:

I took the precious Bible, and surrounded it with several Testimonies for the Church, given for the people of God. Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept. But there are not many of you that know what is contained in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourselves with God's inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies, calling your attention to the words of inspiration which you neglected to obey, and urging you to fashion your lives in accordance with its pure and elevated teachings.

What is central in this portrait? The Bible. What is the inspired Book? The Bible. The Testimonies play only a designated role in leading people to the Bible. in the next section, she calls them God's attempt to wall in God's people, so that they may fasten themselves into the Scriptures - not to her words.

Of this group - and I dare say - applicable to many in Adventism - she states clearly: "There are many of you who do not know what is in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures."

Here is the implicit point Ellen makes: if one are not willing to study in the Scriptures, and one is not familiar with what is in the Testimonies, one will not progress in understanding what is in either, nor is one doing the work God expects them to. I would add also one will not understand the proper role of one to the other. She goes on to the logical conclusion of this thought: "If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies."

She is first and foremost to say that had God's Remnant made the Bible their meat and drink, her own books would be completely unnecessary! I cannot imagine a more emphatic statement of pointing away from her writings, and to the Word of God, than she has made here.

I would add that it ought to be a point of our

Quote:

humility

, even

Quote:

shame

, rather than our pride, that we need the Testimonies at all. And in Club Adventist, we gleefully post EGW's words as if they are proof of our position - yet they are in truth indicative of our pride and ego not to appeal to God's Word alone, nor live by that Word - but that we'd rather win arguments than live by the Word. We treat EGW's words no better.

Do you really want to keep at the multiple EGW references, Bob? Can you not prove your case from the Word of God alone? Do you really know what is in what you quote? Or are simply trying to beat down a brother you simply don't understand where he derives his EGW position on - nor agrees with that position?

I could go on...as I have not quite finished this section yet. It has much more to say in line with what Ellen herself has stated the proper role of her words to the Scriptures. The next section is titled. "Wrongful Use of the Testimonies". And we are not even half way through this chapter yet. There are many passages passages placing the proper role of Ellen white's writings in relation to the Bible, as a lesser light pointing to the Greater light, and that her writings are not needed should we strive with decided purpose to follow what is God-given as light from the inspired Book.

I must leave now for a doctor's appointment. I will pick up where I leave off if I see it is necessary.

Blessings,

[Gail]

Thank you, Iron Deacon, for the research you have brought us, and AMEN!!!

Jesus said, Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt. 4:4 (??-I didn't check)

We really need to take that seriously. And I say, Why not? Whenever I do a Bible study to answer a questioning, I am FASCINATED with what I come up with- and I realise that the blessing gained is only a drop in the bucket.

I don't know why more "out there" are not as excited as I get. But then, from what you have quoted, ID, perhaps EGW had the same thing occur to her.

[JoeMo]

Mr. Iron Deacon,

If they had a "hats off" emoticon, I would post it right now. You are truly a voice of reason and balance. Your diligent study of both the word and SoP is really paying off for me. I'm learning so much! Like Gail, I'm excited!

Blessings to you,

JoeMo

[ClubV12]

Thank you Bob, I appreciate the balance you bring to this subject of the bible working with the Spirit of Prophecy. As is the position of the Church on this matter.

Bob says,

"So how then does the situation get so bent around as to try and coopt Ellen White into the work of "turning people away from the Testimonies" to the point of claiming she was foremost in doing it?"

She never made that claim, of course. But some might lead you to conclude that is what she is saying. Those who are already bent toward making the work of the prophet of little or nor effect, like Pharoah, will be hardened into their position of rejection of knowledge.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Church leaders often make mistakes and are no gaurentee of establishing truthful doctrine, sadly that is reality. What to do then? Simple, consider what the OFFICIAL position of the Church is on the point in question!

I mean no animosity by this question...

What is more important - the official position of the Church on the point is question; or the official position of God's Word on the question? Like you yourself said - church leaders sometimes make mistakes.

Admittedly, there are adminitrative positions that the modern church must take that may not be addressed in scripture.

[ClubV12]

As it concerns doctrine you will have to decide for yourself who you will counsel with. You state (or strongly imply) that your distrust the counsel of the Adventist Church and this leads you to consider a different interpretation of scripture than what the Church has found.

Bear in mind Seventh-day Adventist DOCTRINE is based solely on the bible. The interpretation of the texts used as "proof" to support those positions are either dismissed as irrelevant or interpreted in a different way by any other Churches. Obviously the Baptists interpret it differently than the Adventist or the Catholics.

So, you will have to decide who your counselors will be. And you MUST have counselors because NO SCRIPTURE is of a private nature. Therefore, you MUST ally yourself with somebody. It is a serious mistake to conclude that all you need is the bible and the bible alone and the Holy Spirit will then guide you into all truth. One needs to understand HOW the Holy Spirit will do that!!! Through the counsel of many.

God has a Church, His appointed agency on earth to instruct and guide His people. I believe that Church is Seventh-day Adventist.

You may wish to follow your Church, rather than the official Seventh-day Adventist Church. You may wish to rely on the counsel of those you admire and love and who share similiar charasmatic gifts.

However you decide, you will have to choose. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord through and with the OFFICIAL Seventh-day Adventist Church and accept their doctrinal interpretation of scripture. After careful, personal review as the Bereans had done. As confirmed by what I accept as the inspired messenger of God, Ellen White.

As it concerns doctrine, I have not found a SINGLE fault with the position of the official Seventh-day Adventists as expressed by the General Conference.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

As it concerns doctrine you will have to decide for yourself who you will counsel with.

Good counsel.