ClubV12 Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 JoeMo says, "Admittedly, there are adminitrative positions that the modern church must take that may not be addressed in scripture." That is true and an important topic in itself. Where possible, during the establishment of the Adventist Church, rules, laws, organization were patterned after and in harmony with the bible guidelines and principles. But the bible does not specify every detail, it is left to men to work that out using biblical principles gleaned from the word. Though not perfect in every regard, I support the result of that work. Following the principle of "submitting yourself one to another". That speaks to beleivers who share the SAME doctrinal views.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Thank you Bob, I appreciate the balance you bring to this subject of the bible working with the Spirit of Prophecy. As is the position of the Church on this matter. Bob says, "So how then does the situation get so bent around as to try and coopt Ellen White into the work of "turning people away from the Testimonies" to the point of claiming she was foremost in doing it?" She never made that claim, of course. But some might lead you to conclude that is what she is saying. Those who are already bent toward making the work of the prophet of little or nor effect, like Pharoah, will be hardened into their position of rejection of knowledge. "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 Of course you agree with CoAspen JoeMo, you have made it clear you question the gift AND the Church. Consider the fruit, Ted... If you disagree with Ted, than state why and not go after other people for agreeing with his post. By the way, many of your posts question the church/leaders so not sure what comment has to do with anything. While we don't agree on several things, CoAspen, I do agree with your point here - demonstrate where in I am wrong in my case. Demonstrate where the contextual flow of the passage I have referred to says something other than what I have concluded. Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
ClubV12 Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 The path of error lays close to the path of truth Ted. Where you have erred above all other things is in "time and place". At this time and in this place your dialog will only serve to strenghthen those who have already decided the Testimonies are safe to ignore. You have increased their desire to make them of little effect. I believe Bob is spot on with his initial response, that you wrested some quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy and presented them in a way to state with confidence, "we don't need the Testimonies". You even bolded that part of the quote, that we don't NEED the Testimonies. This was Bobs concern and it is very much my concern. It is completely wresting and twisting what Ellen White has said concerning the Testimonies. Her message is very clear on this, we, the Church NEED the Testimonies, now more than ever! Just as she said the Jews didn't need the books of Moses, yes, she DID say that. And then, like now, some thought, "Oh, well we can ignore that old mans OPINIONS. We don't need HIM to tell us how to keep the law, or life our life. All WE need is the ten commandments." And of course, they were right, that IS all they needed, just the ten, nothing more. Accept they were to dumb to understand the ten, so obviously, they needed the prophet! As we do today. I don't believe the Adventist Urban myth you quote, that some, to many, a few, whatever, take Ellen Whites word over the bible. That is PATENTLY untrue. Show me ONE person who has said that or believes that. NOT ONE, nor is it the position of this Church.
joeb Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Accept they were to dumb to understand the ten, so obviously, they needed the prophet! As we do today. How little you understand your Bible. It tells us over and over and again that only the Holy Spirit can bring home truth to the human heart, and that even then we humans can turn a blind eye to truth because of the power of our fallen human nature. Failure to understand truth has everything to do with the condition of the heart, and little to do with the intellect. Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
ClubV12 Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 IF the Holy Spirit was all that they needed, why did Moses write a book with detailed instructions? BECAUSE THAT is how the Holy Spirit works! It is no different now than it was then. A people, backward, confused, ignorant of doctrine and understanding raised up to deliver the three angels message. They needed much more than the bible, they needed a prophet, just as the Children of Israel needed a prophet. In either case, they wouldn't have needed one, except, we, they, were to stupid to figure it out. So the Father sent the Holy Spirit to write books so we could see the light and be convicted of our sins. You say, "How little you understand..." and then you preach to me like you have love all figured out? How then shall I respond, how about, "How little YOU understand Joeb, your ignorance is off the chart." But that would be rude and I don't want to follow your example.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 The path of error lays close to the path of truth Ted. Where you have erred above all other things is in "time and place". At this time and in this place your dialog will only serve to strenghthen those who have already decided the Testimonies are safe to ignore. You have increased their desire to make them of little effect. I believe Bob is spot on with his initial response, that you wrested some quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy and presented them in a way to state with confidence, "we don't need the Testimonies". You even bolded that part of the quote, that we don't NEED the Testimonies. This was Bobs concern and it is very much my concern. It is completely wresting and twisting what Ellen White has said concerning the Testimonies. Her message is very clear on this, we, the Church NEED the Testimonies, now more than ever! Just as she said the Jews didn't need the books of Moses, yes, she DID say that. And then, like now, some thought, "Oh, well we can ignore that old mans OPINIONS. We don't need HIM to tell us how to keep the law, or life our life. All WE need is the ten commandments." And of course, they were right, that IS all they needed, just the ten, nothing more. Accept they were to dumb to understand the ten, so obviously, they needed the prophet! As we do today. I don't believe the Adventist Urban myth you quote, that some, to many, a few, whatever, take Ellen Whites word over the bible. That is PATENTLY untrue. Show me ONE person who has said that or believes that. NOT ONE, nor is it the position of this Church. Well, Club, I have gone back over the 3 posts I made prior to Bob's "concerned" questioning of my position. Not a single one said "we don't need the Testimonies". In fact, a person has to severely twist what I wrote, and snip just the precise words they want, to even reach such a conclusion from my RESPONSE post to Bob's "concern", let alone the dialogue leading up to it. How you and Bob could reach such a conclusion is beyond me. Rather than erring in "time and place", I do believe you are indeed the ones erring. The words I bolded in response were the conditional context of Ellen's writing. That you and Bob have selectively parsed out the "IF" clause, and in THAT condition show "great concern", speaks volumes. You have failed to demonstrate where I have taken her out of context, and you must necessarily parse what I said, and by extension, what Ellen white herself said, to make your case. Perhaps you need to go back, and try to truly understand the context, before treading on these grounds. Likewise, if you were truly "concerned" about EGW usage - why is it done here with so great a flourish to "prove points", when it is clearly the province of God's Word? As for your "urban myth" - I encounter these kinds of people far more frequently than you think, see the "fruit" of their work more frequently that your willing to admit, and it is a major pain to undo the damage these self-righteous people have done. Closing one's eyes, plugging one's ears, and crying "Lalalalalalalalalalal! I can't hear you!" does not make the issue go away. I would submit this is a primary contribution why SDA's leave the church for non-SDA doctrines. Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 HEY ALL I AM a late comer to post here and maybe some one has post my response before ---but here is goods if a person is not convicted of the bible truths then they are not grounded in the bible truths...if person is not grounded in the bible truths then they will accept any belief that seems to suit there own needs also we are at the end of time and the devil is trying to shake as many people away from bible truths as he can just some thoughts here dgrimm60 And they are great thoughts, dgrimm60. Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
joeb Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Originally Posted By: dgrimm60 HEY ALL I AM a late comer to post here and maybe some one has post my response before ---but here is goods if a person is not convicted of the bible truths then they are not grounded in the bible truths...if person is not grounded in the bible truths then they will accept any belief that seems to suit there own needs also we are at the end of time and the devil is trying to shake as many people away from bible truths as he can just some thoughts here dgrimm60 And they are great thoughts, dgrimm60. Blessings, I agree with Ted, dgrimm. Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Ted says, "I encounter these kinds of people far more frequently than you think,..." People that say they take Ellen White over the bible. Ted, I don't believe you have met ONE person who has actually said that. I believe you THINK you see that, you "imagine evil of your brother" because they quote Ellen White "to much" in your opinion. Because they believe strongly, even zealously, that Ellen White IS indeed an inspired prophet. I'll tell you why what you say CANT BE TRUE. Anyone that has studied Ellen White enough to have come to the conclusion she is indeed an inspired prophet is TO SMART and TO WELL read to say they take her word over the bible. You thus, like many other Adventists, continue to gossip, rumor and promote the urban myth that to many Adventists, "far more" than I realize, actually believe her to be above the bible. That may be your OPINION Ted, as such, I leave you with it. My opinion is that your mistaken to the point where I'm not sure you can be trusted on theology matters. Bob Ryan has it right Ted, I'm truly am sorry if your offended, but I believe that is an accurate assesement.
Gustave Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 The internet is full of anti-SDA-doctrine propaganda. Do you think that access to these sites is at all responsible for the marked increase? Do you believe the following thread is "propaganda"... ...Perhaps many SDA's realize they can't support the SDA creature christ doctrine? ...There appears to be a growing Trinity concern within SDAism. http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post439528
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 No wonder Adventist are leaving, Adventist within the Church are so divided on doctrine! The solution is simple enough, look to the G.C. to establish WHAT official doctrinal points are. But so many of our people question and have lost confidence in the G.C. For an Adventist, when it comes to doctrine, remove the G.C. and you have cut your anchor. That is the first step toward ruin.
Ted Oplinger Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Ted says,"I encounter these kinds of people far more frequently than you think,..." People that say they take Ellen White over the bible. Ted, I don't believe you have met ONE person who has actually said that. I believe you THINK you see that, you "imagine evil of your brother" because they quote Ellen White "to much" in your opinion. Because they believe strongly, even zealously, that Ellen White IS indeed an inspired prophet. I'll tell you why what you say CANT BE TRUE. Anyone that has studied Ellen White enough to have come to the conclusion she is indeed an inspired prophet is TO SMART and TO WELL read to say they take her word over the bible. You thus, like many other Adventists, continue to gossip, rumor and promote the urban myth that to many Adventists, "far more" than I realize, actually believe her to be above the bible. That may be your OPINION Ted, as such, I leave you with it. My opinion is that your mistaken to the point where I'm not sure you can be trusted on theology matters. Bob Ryan has it right Ted, I'm truly am sorry if your offended, but I believe that is an accurate assesement. Seeing how we've never met, you neither know me, nor the ministry I carry in my church - that's a rather presumptuous statement to make. Too bad you weren't there as I had to guide my church through a very potentially dangerous split situation when my church had to deal with just such a gentleman - the son of a self-supporting man who is just the same way. It's rather unfortunate that you weren't there when I took him straight through these same passages as I have here - and he was forced to admit his sin and presumption before we even got to the "Not to Take the Place of the Bible" section. Far from being offended, Club, I am saddened that one such as you thinks in such a way that you do. You can think what you will of my posts, Club. To exhibit such a judgmental spirit is clearly contrary to God's word, particularly when asked to demonstrate the what's, how's and when's of the matter - and you did not. So...you and Bob are a fan club together - birds of a feather do flock together. I leave you both to surmise and presume to your heart's content as to who is "safe" and who is "not". Blessings, "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
CoAspen Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 First step toward ruin....what kind of ruin? Salvation? Church membership? Membership in Christs church? Official doctrinal points save? Exactly what is it that you are trying to say? You leave many of us quite confused.
BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 No wonder Adventist are leaving, Adventist within the Church are so divided on doctrine! The solution is simple enough, look to the G.C. to establish WHAT official doctrinal points are. But so many of our people question and have lost confidence in the G.C. For an Adventist, when it comes to doctrine, remove the G.C. and you have cut your anchor. That is the first step toward ruin. I hear what you are saying - but that is not the solution. We need an informed laity. What we are drifting towards is SDA social club plus SDA follow-the-leader club, and the result is that a lot of people bail - on the point of doctrinal confusion. At the end of the day each person must stand for himself before the judgment seat of Christ - 2Cor 5:10 and no appeal to Pastor, or GC, or liberal life-coach will stand up to the review on that day. What is more - in this life people meet challenges from family, friends, jobs, the conviction of the Holy Spirit et al - and often will face one crisis or another. They need real Bible answers to real Bible questions. If they are stuck at "bible-lite" and only "believe" what Spectrum tells them to think or what their pastor tells them to think - they will only stay in that form of slumber for so long - and then they will bolt one way or the other. The lesson is that "bible lite" combined with "lets all talk about hockey instead" does not get the job done and does not retain members the way some had hoped. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Administrators debbym Posted April 18, 2013 Administrators Posted April 18, 2013 Quote: No wonder Adventist are leaving, Adventist within the Church are so divided on doctrine! The solution is simple enough, look to the G.C. to establish WHAT official doctrinal points are. But so many of our people question and have lost confidence in the G.C. For an Adventist, when it comes to doctrine, remove the G.C. and you have cut your anchor. That is the first step toward ruin. adventists within the church are not so divided on doctrine. every adventist i know has not removed the GC. The church is not headed to ruin. you seem to be filled with thoughts of terrible things, and i just do not know where it is coming from. Questioning and re-examining, and reviewing and learning and relearning are all good things. i am hearing so much concern and negativity in your posts, about how serious things are, club, i am wondering if things are ok with you. i am really concerned for you. I am really ok, our iron deacon is really ok too, and i am hearing serious concerns from you. are you ok. deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar.
BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 So...you and Bob are a fan club together - birds of a feather do flock together. I leave you both to surmise and presume The point of the thread was to actually read the AR article and comment on actual details. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I see your point Bob and I concur. In MY experience I simply could not find anyone that could give me intelligent, serious answers to doctrinal inquiries. Perhaps, most people aren't even looking that deep, or our own people. For ME the solution was to research what our official positions and statements were on any given doctrinal point. The buck stops at the G.C. when it comes to official doctrinal positions. I trust them more than any single person within the Church. Because the G.C. is NOT a single person, but a counsel of considered men who have studied these issues and built on a firm foundation. So, how do we educate the laity? Prayer meeting in an hour, gotta run, and thats ONE way to educate them. By the way... Debby, I base my comments on what is happening to the Church based on what is happening to professed Adventist in the Church on this forum! I realize it varies from Church to Church. I have a STRONG faith in the Church, but the reality is as Bob has said. Our people are indeed limited in their understanding of doctrinal points, in ALL our Churches. The confusion on THIS forum over doctrine is babylon itself!
BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 HEY ALL I AM a late comer to post here and maybe some one has post my response before ---but here is goods if a person is not convicted of the bible truths then they are not grounded in the bible truths...if person is not grounded in the bible truths then they will accept any belief that seems to suit there own needs also we are at the end of time and the devil is trying to shake as many people away from bible truths as he can just some thoughts here dgrimm60 All true - but many people join the SDA denomination having only a partial understanding of the Bible doctrines that we teach - if they are not informed, if they are not exposed to in depth Bible study and a review the messages God has given us through the Holy Spirit - then they are at risk of drifting into the "bible-lite" zone and easy pickings for every wind of doctrine after that. So how can we find good ways to inform them of the teachings of the Bible and the messages God has given us through the Holy Spirit in these last days? in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 Many Adventists - and nearly all outside the ranks of the SDA church - fail to recognize just that. Ellen was the greatest champion of pointing people away from her books, John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
OzarkWoman Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I see your point Bob and I concur. In MY experience I simply could not find anyone that could give me intelligent, serious answers to doctrinal inquiries. And there you have it. This is exactly your problem. You are an egomaniac, close to being narcistic. You think too highly of yourself and you think only you know what is right or wrong or good or bad. Personally, I think you need some help, medical helop of some kind. You are not God.
OzarkWoman Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 So how can we find good ways to inform them of the teachings of the Bible and the messages God has given us through the Holy Spirit in these last days? Why do you think Ellen White is the way? You teach from the Bible and if they don't want to believe the Bible, then there is not much one can do. You and others are too stuck on EGW and really need to get a grip. Just because some don't think about EGW one way or another does not mean we are bad Adventists. It means we are more concerned with the word of God, via the Bible. Personally, I am sick and tired of the subtle way that some in here call me a bad Adventist and that I should not have been baptized because I don't think their way. That is not the way of Jesus at all.
ClubV12 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Debby, I am fine, thanks for asking. You mention Ted and my response to him concerns you, it should not. I wish Ted the very best, but I believe in this instance his opinions are not only wrong, they are hurtful to the cause. Like Bob, I feel it necessary to help my Brother see that. I did so in the kindest way I could. People often mistake that as cold and harsh. They treated Jeremiah the same way, they hated him! I continue to learn how to do it better, I pray I never loose the courage TO do it! What brings about the shaking? The straight testimony, as per Ellen White. I'm not trying to bring about anything more than directing people to the narrow path. And sometimes, folks get offended, no matter how you say it, there is no easy way. Ozarkwoman has my sympathy, truly, a lot pain to work through there. May God bless you Sister.
OzarkWoman Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Ozarkwoman has my sympathy, truly, a lot pain to work through there. May God bless you Sister. What pain? Pain becvause I don't agree with you or see things your way? Club, get some helop before someone decks you. You are one sick puppy. BTW, I don't need or wanty your sympathy.
BobRyan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Posted April 18, 2013 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 Ozarkwoman has my sympathy, truly, a lot pain to work through there. May God bless you Sister. What pain? Pain becvause I don't agree with you or see things your way? Club, get some helop before someone decks you. You are one sick puppy. BTW, I don't need or wanty your sympathy. wow - more sweetness and light. How do we manage to keep getting these warm, fuzzy kind-hearted responses? What is going on? in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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