Beyond Belief: X-SDAs leaving for non-SDA doctrine

[ClubV12]

Don't want to side track the thread, BUT, the fundamental beliefs are the way a group of Seventh-day Adventist people have interpreted scripture to arrive at the doctrine they hold true. Thats the way it's always worked and the way God wants it to work.

On the other hand, Gibs has looked at the same scriptures and arrived at a different interpretation and doctrine. So have the Methodists, ditto the Lutherans and so and so forth. So, you have to choose who your counselors will be.

As for me, it won't be Gibs, I don't think his interpretation is accurate or worthy of consideration. Sorry Gibs, but thats just the way I see it. It won't be the Baptists or Catholics either. I'll go with Seventh-day Adventists on this one!!

Unless your claiming to be a divine prophet Gibs, you too are a man, with an interpretation, a view you like. Just another man, a human being, nothing special, with a few ideas on what you think is truth.

[BobRyan]

Well Bob R and ClubV12, I'm not for the 28 fundamental statements of the SDA church as I prefer the scriptures first hand.

[ClubV12]

We know the path of truth lays very close to the path of error. We know many claim to be led of the Holy Spirit and some claim all they need is to be led (independantly) by the Spirit and the bible and the bible only. They dismiss the safety of a multitude of counselors. They dismiss the safety of assembling themselves together AND submitting themselves one to the other.

How then shall we know the path, if it be truth or if it be error?

"There is no assurance that our doctrine is right and free from all chaff and error unless we are daily doing the will of God. If we do his will, we shall know of the doctrine."

1888 Materials pg 46

I take this to mean not only actual "doctrinal points of belief" but it will also encompass theological questions on points that are not necessarily doctrinal in nature. Interpretation of prophecy disputes can be very confusing, often two sides make a strong case, from the bible, for their view point. You have to choose one path or the other. It will also include questions like what should I do about this or that (move, job, helping someone, how to). It will include questions like what does Ellen White mean in this or that statement.

How can we know where the path is? By the Holy Spirit, you say? Yes, but still, HOW does that work??

It won't, UNLESS, we are doing the will of God already! Living up to the light you have been given, already. If your not, you won't know where the path is when you come to that fork in the road.

Something that helps me: The voice of duty is the voice of God.

[Gibs]

Bob that stuff came in about 25 yrs ago, give or take a few and the doctrine that really put me out was Trinity and Saved in sin.

It was in all the surrounding SDA churches here and still is. On yes they have tried to temper it down a bit, slick and oily is my definition of the smooth theology.

We have none excuse to not overcome as our Redeemer did. He in us is His power same as He had to overcome the devil and his. We may actually have an advantage as the evil angels can see Christ within, men cannot, and know they are defeated foes as long as we don't cast Him out.

But now my Bro. there is a host of false koshered and stood up for by the very ones of you that should be singing out to bring it to a halt or else pull out, it cannot be righted.

I know it can't no more, there is no way. God didn't turn the Jews around in Christ's day that were in apostasy, nor did He turn around the Papal around that came in, He called out the true ones.

It is the same now and has been for years sad to say and realize!

EGW told us what constitutes church, I should post it here but I know you know it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Saved in sin is not a doctrine of Gods chosen people, the visible Church of Seventh-day Adventists. It may be something that is taught by an individual Church here or there or by some other denominations as well.

Sister White was never overly concerned about the trinity doctrine one way or the other. She never counseled her brethren for or against it. I believe when it is all said and done, the issue gets much more attention than it warrants. Nor was she overly concerned about the nature of the Holy Spirit, counseling that whatever your position might be, BE in harmony with your brethren on THAT specific point!

The Church you speak of, Gibs, is the invisible Church, the one the is comprised only of wheat. It's members may be Seventh-day Adventist, or Catholic or even Muslim for all we know. It has not been given to any man to know who comprises His invisible Church as yet. It is the work of the third angel to reveal that in Gods appointed way and time.

Yes, Ellen White speaks of both Churches, the visible as well as the invisible. Many people do get confused over this point.

[BobRyan]

The ones to hold to in His Church is His Word, not of men. Trinity doctrine for one is not scriptural.

Ok there is a good example of an EX-SDA saying that they are out of the church because they do not agree with a specific doctrine in the 28FB.

Which goes along with the point of the article by Andy Nash in the OP.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob that stuff came in about 25 yrs ago, give or take a few and the doctrine that really put me out was Trinity and Saved in sin.

OK I understand how it is that reading the 28 FB you can find that we believe in the Trinity.

But what part of the 28FB - declare "Saved in sin"??

BTW - we heard a great sermon today in church by Elder Jim Davidson - Exec Sec of the Southern Union.

In that sermon Elder Davidson pointed out that we are either slaves to sin and sinning or slaves to Christ and bound to obedience according to Paul in Romans 1 and Romans 6.

Outstanding sermon! (Will start a new thread)

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Our sermon was on "assumption", holding onto cherised ideas that may or may not be fully accurate. Also outstanding! :)

[OzarkWoman]

I am sorry, but how is it that someone doesn't believe in the Trinity and to say that it is not scriptural?

[Gibs]

OW, That's right, just give me the scripture that supports it.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Please don't start on the trinity in THIS thread! We already have a massive one for that endless round robin going nowhere discussion.

Here the question is people are leaving the Church, Why?

[OzarkWoman]

Here the question is people are leaving the Church, Why?

There are a miriad of reasons to leave any church at any given time. The church is also adding new members, but you don't seem so inclined to discuss that venture. Why is that?

I am an outsider, so to speak, since I was not raised Adventist, but it seems that many who leave the church leave because they are tired of being controlled by others. That is not what church is supposed to be about. Also, some leave because the church has changed and has become more with the times and maybe, a bit more understanding, by not pushing EGW and such as that. Just my opinion and nothing more, but it what I see in the area I live.

[Gibs]

I've told you why the True ones who don't want error shoved at them most of the time leave, with a long oratory that really says nothing but is more of a hypnotic spell over the most.

I notice that in a lot of "threads" too.

Yes, the majority needs to come out and not have deception thrown at them and be taught by a lay John the Baptist type and with an oratory that is only 15 to 20 minutes long and all are fed the True Word of God.

Did you notice when I run a thead here that being an overcomer is a must, that the great majority here fight it. I think Bro. Robert got angry and quit or got displaced for awhile because of his anger.

The church needs Godly teachers and not worldly teachers who have been schooled in the art of putting forth a view the Bible don't uphold. We don't need or want the so called learned mens theology, we need and want the simple straight forward Word of God.

You see it is straight forward, it says what He means and it means what He says.

Theologians only confuse the simple straight shooting Word of God!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

I've told you why the True ones who don't want error shoved at them most of the time leave, with a long oratory that really says nothing but is more of a hypnotic spell over the most.

I notice that in a lot of "threads" too.

Yes, the majority needs to come out and not have deception thrown at them and be taught by a lay John the Baptist type and with an oratory that is only 15 to 20 minutes long and all are fed the True Word of God.

Did you notice when I run a thead here that being an overcomer is a must, that the great majority here fight it. I think Bro. Robert got angry and quit or got displaced for awhile because of his anger.

The church needs Godly teachers and not worldly teachers who have been schooled in the art of putting forth a view the Bible don't uphold. We don't need or want the so called learned mens theology, we need and want the simple straight forward Word of God.

You see it is straight forward, it says what He means and it means what He says.

Theologians only confuse the simple straight shooting Word of God!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I must disagree, there, Gibs.

It is not the point of overcoming sin being a must, that people fight. It is what you personally define that overcoming must necessarily be, is what people fight. You confuse the two greatly.

One point of being a servant of God's Word, is to understand the difference between a rejection of the Word, versus a rejection of one's own understanding of that Word. Your testimony to date is that you regard the rejection of your understanding and perspective of a point, to be a rejection of God's Word. Yet, God only can make that call - that's not your province.

That is why the Bible teaches us not to regard with contempt those who disagree with us, even if they should make us angry.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Yes Ted, Overcoming what? Let's let EGW define it since you fault my view,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality."--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

We are to cooperate in His building in us, yes we too are working on this building,

There is a great song, "Working on a Building".

"We have a part to act in this work. Let none think that men and women are going to be taken to heaven without engaging in the struggle here below. We have a battle to fight, a victory to gain. God says to us, "Work out your own salvation." How? "With fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12, 13). God works, and man works.... Thus only can we be partakers of the divine nature. {HP 59.4}

Here is the consistency of true religion. We are to be "labourers together with God," working in harmony with Him. "Ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9). This figure represents human character, which is to be wrought upon point by point. Each day God works on His building to perfect the structure, that it may become a holy temple for Him. Man is to cooperate with God, striving in His strength to make himself what God designs him to be, building his life with pure, noble deeds".... {HP 59.5}

"This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions." . . . {3SM 155.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

One of the 28 fundamental beliefs of the Church is acceptance of the gift of prophecy, AS DEMONSTRATED by Ellen White.

A member of the Church doesn't have to accept the fundamental beliefs of course. Gibs doesn't and he left the Church. I think that is a good idea, why would you associate with a group who does not share your beliefs? At some point people need to decide if they can support their Church, or not. If not, they should move on.

Which is exactly what this study says, people are leaving because they disagree with the beliefs of the Church. "I would that thou wert hot or cold", get in or get out.

From the Church standpoint, what then should we do?

We can educate and emphasize the importance of the doctrine and fundamental beliefs of the Church.

OR

We can ignore the issues of doctrine and fundamental beliefs in favor of more Church socials and showing people a good time.

This study suggests that showing folks a good time, more Church socials, more Church fun and acceptance with limited understanding of Church doctrine,,, isn't working. It didn't work with the early New Testament Church either. When they started lowering the standards required of believers for membership (Church doctrine, fundamental beliefs) the Church membership numbers increased dramatically, but the Church itself soon ceased to exist. In a couple of hundred years it was totally gone, replaced by State laws and political powers.

[Gibs]

Here is what EGW says the true Church is and I have to agree,

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth." {UL 315.7}

She sure wan't trying to lead her older sister astray I am sure!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

OW, That's right, just give me the scripture that supports it.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Sounds like a good thread to start.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

"God has a Church..."

This was a letter Ellen White wrote home while she was visiting France. She is recalling the suffering and martyrdom of the Saints who gave their lives because they were Christians. They were forced from their homes by the Government and organized worship for them was forbidden. They were forced to flee for their lives, hide in caves and worship in secret. Husbands were burned at the stake while their wives sang songs or prayed with them. Whole families, including and children were slain for their faith. While in prison awaiting their death, or where two or three might be gathered in a dungeon, or a remote valley, even in the midst of this horror, God was with them.

Of these martyrs she said:

“God has a Church…”, and the quote continues, “Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon.” UL 315.6

How sad that some would use this solemn report of the horror the Saints faced as currency in their ridicule of the visible Seventh-day Adventist Church. How deeply disturbing that one would use this quote as currency, to trade upon the blood of martyrs, to promote fanaticism and off shoot religious radicalism. It pains me to see this done, to see it used a method to ridicule Gods Church also inspires righteous indignation. How dare one use the blood of Saints to fight against Gods chosen people.

While in Australia Ellen White had to meet and deal with many off shoots, this was her counsel to them:

“God has a church upon the earth, who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. . . . “ 4BIO 81.3

In dealing with a brother proclaiming the Church was Babylon, she said this:

“God has a distinct people, a church on earth, second to none, but superior to all in their facilities to teach the truth, to vindicate the law of God. . . . My brother, if you are teaching that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, you are wrong.” TM 50, 58, 59

[ClubV12]

I tell ya, the next time I hear this quote "God has a Church..." used to ridicule MY Church, I'm going to stop right there and confront them on the spot. This trading on the blood of the Saints to promote fanaticism has become such a problem it needs to be "met". As Ellen White spoke of doing with Dr. Kellogg.

I hear this quote every couple of weeks from some radical in my local Church, usually followed by some comment about the Church being Babylon and then "No I won't shut up..." and then Sabbath School gets completely off track.

Church board is considering "cleaning house" and it may be just time to do that. This is the same category as, "How can I make some money off the Boston Marathon deaths." Appalling!

[joeb]

No, Bob. Indeed, there is a certain consistency in the lack of reading comprehension here on here part. Almost as good as Gibs' style.

Go back, re-read it, then try to figure it out. It's not exactly hard English to understand.

Blessings,

Ted,

I see the misrepresentation is still going on apace here on this thread.... ****shakes head in disbelief****

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

No, Bob. Indeed, there is a certain consistency in the lack of reading comprehension here on here part. Almost as good as Gibs' style.

Go back, re-read it, then try to figure it out. It's not exactly hard English to understand.

Blessings,

Ted,

I see the misrepresentation is still going on apace here on this thread.... ****shakes head in disbelief****

Sadly, it happens all too often...

Blessings,

[ClubV12]

I know, I shake my head as well, wondering how it is possible you guys can't see it just the way I see it.

Sadly, it happens all to often...

[Ted Oplinger]

I know, I shake my head as well, wondering how it is possible you guys can't see it just the way I see it.

Sadly, it happens all to often...

That's because we all have different life experiences and different thought approaches which in turn we all approach the same topic from a slightly different perspective.

Personally, I am glad God hasn't desired us to be automatons, all thinking in the same cookie-cutter fashion.

Unity through love is the hallmark of the Remnant, not uniformity through fear.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Our Unity is not in following any one of us and holding in esteem.

Our unity is in all of us following Him to the letter, because we know He is the Truth, the Way and the Life.

When He is the only Master in the soul temple then it will happen.

The one thing most responsible for breaking down Him being the Master at all times is self gratification in some form or other to please and gratify self.

SELF, SELF, we must keep subserviant to the one and only safe Master in us!

Christ in us is our only Hope!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.