This is Information All SDA's Should Know Of

[Guest]

Conclusion

The issue of Christ's human nature is not going away any time soon, because the whole plan of salvation is at stake. Hebrews 1:14, 15 tells us that "through death" Jesus would "destroy him that had the power of death" and would "deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Verse 17 tells us that the only way Christ could do this was "to be made like unto his brethren," not in some things but "in all things." Inspiration further tells us, "The great work of redemption could be carried out only by the Redeemer taking the place of fallen Adam." ( Review and Herald , February 24, 1874) It could not be accomplished if Christ took unfallen Adam's place, or if He took no one's place (partially like Adam and partially like us). To be our sinless Substitute, He had to overcome the liabilities of our fallen nature. What had become an irresistible force to man, Christ must make a conquered power.

Even though this statement from the SDA Bible Commentary is not inspired, it shows a deep understanding of Christ's redemptive act. "Christ met, overcame, and condemned sin in the sphere in which it had previously exercised its dominion and mastery. The flesh, the scene of sin's former triumphs, now became the scene of its defeat and expulsion." (Vol. 6, p. 562)

The issue of the Incarnation was, Could God really overcome sin in Satan's ultimate stronghold, the fallen human heart? If human weaknesses and desires could be subject to God's law, then Satan would lose his greatest battle, and the great controversy would be truly decided. But if God would exempt His Son from some human tendencies, then would the great controversy be any closer to its conclusion then when Satan was expelled from heaven?

When Jesus prevailed on the cross, a loud voice was heard in heaven proclaiming, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down." (Revelation 12:10) Do we really want to rob Jesus of His great victory under the guise of making Him our "sinless Substitute"? Will we continue to deny Him the full salvation that He wrought not only over acts of sin, but over fallen, weak, sinful human nature, in which Satan thought he reigned supreme since the fall of Adam? Let us allow Christ to be truly our sinless Substitute as well as our holy Example. Only the real Christ, providing a real atonement, can lead His church through to final victory.

http://www.dennispriebe.com/new/node/27

[CoAspen]

Gerry,

I see you are still being ignored and EGW also! Have yet to hear/see a verifiable reason to reject EGW's words. I reckon now we know where some people get the idea of 'sinless perfection'! If Christ could do it it with those sinful propensities, then so can we! Right! Except it ain't the truth!! On one hand tis said we can't have sinless perfection yet on the other hand Christ had a sinful nature but didn't fall to it as Adam did. Yet Adam was created w/o a sinful nature? Rather confusing theology I must say! The implication is that Adam could have lived a life without ever sinning again?? Again confusion! It, the paper, seems to be saying that man could have saved himself or what?

Being tempted in all ways does not, to me, show any need for a sinful nature. It simply says that Adam and Eve could have relied/listened to God and never sinned, what we call the 2nd Adam. I think EGW got it exactly correct!!

[Gerr]

[Gerr]

[For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1}

It doesn't get any plainer than this. This directly refutes what you just said.

Jesus did not have the IQ of Adam, nor his physical strength. What does "in moral worth" mean to you? That He was as selfish as you and me? Same lusts as you and me?

If He was born with a corrupt moral nature, He would have needed a savior Himself!

Read this again:

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. 1980 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (1128). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gibs]

Gerry, CoAspen,

We are expected to walk as Jesus walked, whatever His perfection was we can and must equal it whether you like that or not.

I notice other quotes of EGW are dismissed by you so I suppose these will be too, but salvation is too great an issue to let pride destroy you,

" In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming." {AG 254.2}

Look, it matters not how weak you are, He will fill you, read,

"Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. {AG 254.4}

The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel anyone to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer. {AG 254.5}

If we are not overcomers we WILL be hurt of the SECOND DEATH!

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[CoAspen]

So...in conclusion, where/who was Christs Savior?

By the way...tis a well known condition of transference that when it is pointed out a persons issue, the defense is to blame the other person as doing the same with out answering to the original question!

So...did Christ have or have not a 'sinful nature'?

EGW says no!!

[Gibs]

EGW, says a positive yes,

The example He has left must be followed. He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. {RH, December 15, 1896 par. 7}

[Gibs]

CoApen, You Ask, "So...in conclusion, where/who was Christs Savior?"

If Christ would have sinned, He and the whole of mankind would have been lost. God would have lost His One and Only Begotten Son and the whole of mankind.

If He would have lost to Satan He would have died eternally and all of men, Adam to the end!

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul. {GCB, December 1, 1895 par. 22}

Imperiled Heaven because Our Father would have lost His One and ONLY BEGOTTEN Son! His Beloved Son!

Mr 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[Gerr]

Gerry, CoAspen,

We are expected to walk as Jesus walked, whatever His perfection was we can and must equal it whether you like that or not.

If we can equal His righteousness and are expected to attain it, what's the point of Jesus coming to this earth? What happened to the GIFT of righteousness that He offers to everyone?

AAs for me I choose to accept that gift of perfect righteousness rather than counting in my achievements to gain heaven. Walk in His steps? Of course! But let's not put the cart before the horse!

[Gibs]

Gerry if you don't know why Jesus came you have surely missed the boat.

He came to make the way for a man to be saved and then He walked in it as one of us from smack dab where we are to show you it could be done and with Satan especially hard on His tail to break Him down as Satan knew if He didn't best Jesus His goose is cooked.

With each of us the stakes are not so high so we are not tried as severely as He was!

Yes we can equal His walk here as He did because He gives to you His Divine Nature that you too have His equal power.

If you do not have it, the problem is you have not been born again of His Spirit and dead of the old man of sin. A new man in Jesus Christ, without Him within we can do nothing.

We now walk with the Spirit and not of the flesh and self. Take hold of Christ, He is reaching out His hand and says come!

When we are not truly born again we no doubt have not received His Spirit of truth either which we must have.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

If I could do as He did, what do I need Him for?

[Gibs]

You can't do a thing unless He is dwelling within you. Then and only then can you walk as He walked.

That is the secret, mystery, and is now made known to us Gentiles,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

"And Enoch walked WITH God...." How did Enoch do it if the pre-incarnate Christ was not abiding in him?

[Gibs]

The Spirit of God was in him the one and same Spirit as when Christ is in you.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Guest]

So...in conclusion, where/who was Christs Savior?

It is not a sin to be born with a sinful nature. You are confusing a sinful nature with sin.

Jesus never sinned, even though he had our sinful nature, therefore he needed no saviour.

..he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. {RH, December 15, 1896 par. 7}

Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it... -Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon himself our fallen nature...{7ABC 453.5}

Christ assumed our fallen nature, and was subject to every temptation to which man is subject.--Ms 80, 1903, p. 12. {17MR 29.4}

That is the Catholic doctrine of original sin that you are clinging to there, Co A. Can't say that I'm surprised.

[joeb]

Gerry,

I see you are still being ignored and EGW also! Have yet to hear/see a verifiable reason to reject EGW's words. I reckon now we know where some people get the idea of 'sinless perfection'! If Christ could do it it with those sinful propensities, then so can we! Right! Except it ain't the truth!! On one hand tis said we can't have sinless perfection yet on the other hand Christ had a sinful nature but didn't fall to it as Adam did. Yet Adam was created w/o a sinful nature? Rather confusing theology I must say! The implication is that Adam could have lived a life without ever sinning again?? Again confusion! It, the paper, seems to be saying that man could have saved himself or what?

Being tempted in all ways does not, to me, show any need for a sinful nature. It simply says that Adam and Eve could have relied/listened to God and never sinned, what we call the 2nd Adam. I think EGW got it exactly correct!!

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: RLH

"He blessed children that were possessed of passions like His own." ( Signs of the Times , April 9, 1896) Do all children have inherited desires toward selfishness? Christ had the same "passions."

Which is why He had to pray to the Father: "Thy will, not mine."

Whoa- when I think of my own passionate selfishness, I cringe that Jesus would be like that.

How about passion for life and dancing with joy? Children have that before life squishes it all out of them.

This is much more in line with everything I've read about the childhood of Jesus than Richard's assertions are.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

So...in conclusion, where/who was Christs Savior?

It is not a sin to be born with a sinful nature. You are confusing a sinful nature with sin.

What do you call a tomato plant before it bears fruit?

Are we sinners because we sin? Or do we sin because we ARE sinners?

Does a newborn child need a savior?

Quote:

That is the Catholic doctrine of original sin that you are clinging to there, Co A. Can't say that I'm surprised.

Do you deny that Adam & Eve passed on their sinful nature to their descendants? Or do you think every child is born with the moral perfection of Adam before he sinned? Do you reject the doctrine of original sin because the Catholic Church believes it?

[CoAspen]

When all else fails bring out the THATS CATHOLIC!!

Sorry, I reckon EGW just didn't know what she was talking about! Maybe she was confused! Read what Gerry posted again not just little partial snippets out of context. You guys are really make the little lady spin in her grave.

I reckon now we know who is really an SDA, since it has been declared one must believe what the church believes and the SDA .org does not teach that Christ had a sinful nature as we do. Period!

Sounds like the wolf speaking in sheep clothing! There are some who will argue about the nature of Christ in an attempt to go down the perfection road but it don't wash. 2nd Adam as in the Adam before sin. Why call Christ the 2nd if He had a sinful nature? He could not and would not be such, He could have just been called by any name. Did Christ create a perfect, sinless person or not? The idea that we can really do it all if we just trust Christ and let him inside our life so we can become perfect rules out the need for salvation! God can simply look at usand say 'Wow , you did it'! But that is not what we as SDA teach, rather that God sees Christ who died for us. Your logic just don't work. There was no need for Christ to come down and prove anything if we merely had to trust in Him to do the work, with us, to reach that perfection. The Bible is very clear, we are sinners, says nothing about becoming a sinner when we first sin, but rather we are born sinners. If Christ took on our nature, which is to sin, then He was born a sinner.

Christ came to prove Adam and Eve could have passed the test thrown at them by Satan by being tempted in all ways beyond the original sin of Adam and Eve. He disproved the Lie of satan that God could not be trusted. Christ was the example and proof! He was not like us as we exist now. He carries us all the way!!!!

Adios, nothing more to be said by me, would just repeat myself!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

but rather we are born sinners.

"Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."James 4:17 NASB

That seems to let the newborn off the hook. But the elders will teach him/her soon enough what they should/shouldn't do.

God cares!

[Guest]

Do you reject the doctrine of original sin because the Catholic Church believes it?

No. But because it came on the scene AFTER the bible was written. It's un-biblical.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do you reject the doctrine of original sin because the Catholic Church believes it?

No. But because it came on the scene AFTER the bible was written. It's un-biblical.

Unbiblical? Does a newborn need a Savior?

[Gibs]

A newborn does have a Saviour, Jesus Christ, no sin is accounted to one until the age of accountability.

Jesus has not spoken to them by Spirit, Mother and Father or teacher yet so cannot be held for light not received.

[Gerr]

A newborn does have a Saviour, Jesus Christ, no sin is accounted to one until the age of accountability.

Jesus has not spoken to them by Spirit, Mother and Father or teacher yet so cannot be held for light not received.

But if a newborn has not yet sinned, it can't be deserving of death, so it doesn't need a savior from sin, right?

[joeb]

A newborn does have a Saviour, Jesus Christ, no sin is accounted to one until the age of accountability.

Jesus has not spoken to them by Spirit, Mother and Father or teacher yet so cannot be held for light not received.