This is Information All SDA's Should Know Of

[Gibs]

Well He surely did take on Himself our sinful fallen nature, scripture and SOP both say so you will have to deal with them in belief or un believe.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Notice the last sentence of the second paragraph and first sentence of third paragraph. In the last sentence of the second paragraph Luke 1:35 is quoted where the fetus in the womb is called "that holy thing". In the first sentence of third paragraph Ellen White says these words are not addressed to any other human being. Later in that same paragraph she warns us against making Christ "altogether human", just like us, for it cannot be.

Well said, Joe - by both you and Ellen.

[Gerr]

Well He surely did take on Himself our sinful fallen nature, scripture and SOP both say so you will have to deal with them in belief or un believe.

If every newborn is born with a sinful nature and needs a Savior, and since you claim Jesus was born with a sinful nature, would He not have needed a Savior Himself?

[Gibs]

He never sinned is the point, He would have had to do one before one could be accounted to Him.

In order to not commit a sin one must be committed to allow only the Spirit of God to rule or He would have and the same for us.

You are forgiven for all you repent of and then told to go sin no more as with His Divine nature within you, you now choose to sin or not to sin.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Guest]

Unbiblical? Does a newborn need a Savior?

Not until he commits a sin.

[Guest]

Original Sin

We are indebted to Dr. Gulley for stating his position clearly and succinctly. After listing the three major definitions of sin as act, relationship, and nature, he asks, “Is it possible that sin includes all three definitions? Might sinfulness (nature, broken relationship) and sins (acts) be considered as cause and effect?” (AR, Jan. 25, 1990) In other words, the sin of having a fallen nature is the primary sin, which leads inevitably to the secondary sin of breaking the law.

Gulley further explains that this is the Augustinian view of sin. In this view, a person is a sinner by nature at birth, already under condemnation by God, therefore he commits acts of sin inevitably, for which he receives added condemnation. Perhaps the most precise explanation of this view of sin was given centuries ago by John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. “All are originally depraved....Guilt is from nature....Even infants bringing their condemnation with them from their mother’s womb suffer... for their own defect....Men are born vicious....We are all sinners by nature.” (Book II, ch. 1, #5,6,7,8,9,10,27)

One who believes that this is the correct position must also believe that sin is continuous from birth to the grave. Since we are born with fallen natures, and keep them after the new birth, our primary sin is constantly a part of our lives, even though we may choose not to commit various acts of sin. Thus from birth to death we are constantly sinning, and we must have continuous forgiveness for our continuous guilt.

This understanding of sin, which Gulley admits was not part of early Adventist theology, presents several problems. How does an infant receive personal forgiveness for its personal guilt, when there is no consciousness either of guilt or forgiveness?

Who chooses for the baby? After we rise from the waters of baptism, we are just as much sinners as we were before the new birth, because our primary sin of nature has not been removed by conversion. After the close of probation, when the censer of forgiving grace has been cast down, we are still sinning by nature. Even though we may choose to die rather than sin in act, we are still just as guilty of the primary sin of nature as we were when in open rebellion against God, and we need continuous forgiveness of that sin as much as ever. How is this forgiving grace supplied when the work of mercy for sinners has closed, and all must stand in God’s sight without a Mediator, with no ongoing intercession for our sins? (EW 48,71; GC 614; SR 403) Obviously there is no possibility of sinless living as long as we keep these fallen, sinning natures, despite the inspired testimony that we can “live lives of sinlessness.” (RH, April 1, 1902; II-IP 146) The Augustinian view of sin may have a rich tradition in Christian history, but it is impossible to blend this view with the Adventist understanding of the great controversy.

http://www.dennispriebe.com/new/node/16

[Guest]

Original Sin and Adventism

Near the end of his article (AR, Jan. 25, 1990) Norman Gulley quotes several statements from Ellen White to show that human nature was corrupted because of Adam’s sin, and he concludes that every man is born a sinner and separated from God. All these statements prove is that every man is born with the effects of Adam’s sin deep within his nature. The conclusion that man is a sinner by nature comes, not from the Bible or from Adventism, but straight from Babylon. Its roots reach back to Augustine in the Roman Catholic Church, and have been transmitted to mainline Protestantism through the writings of Luther and Calvin. Today evangelical Protestants champion this view of sin, and they have been quite eager to see this view become part of Adventism. It is mind-boggling to realize how successful their attempts have been. The evangelical view of sin is accepted within the highest levels of Adventist scholarship today, and has even penetrated into various levels of conference leadership. Many pastors and laymen have accepted its validity, and the result is a deepening crisis in Adventist theology.

The evangelical position on sin makes it impossible to accept the long-standing Adventist position that Christ took our very nature of sin, triumphing over sin in that dangerous nature, and pointing the way for every human being caught in sin’s deadly effects to escape by God’s forgiving and transforming grace. Adventism has long believed that Christ could be both our Substitute and our Example in this simple way. Now, because of the evangelical position on sin, we are being told that Christ could not be our Substitute if He really took our fallen nature from birth. Instead of a simple and straightforward gospel, we are now forced to devise rather complicated devices to allow Christ to take part of human heredity while being exempted from certain hereditary traits.

This new-to-Adventism view of sin also makes it impossible to make significant statements about the possibility of overcoming sin totally before the close of probation. Once again, clarity and simplicity have been sacrificed for the sake of compromise with non-Adventist belief systems. We are searching for theological acceptance, but is the price far too high?

http://www.dennispriebe.com/new/node/16

[joeb]

Richard,

What do the following say to you?

Quote:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Quote:

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Do not both of these texts refer to our fallen spiritual nature?

Third question.

Does man, as in mankind, have both a physical nature and a spiritual nature?

[CoAspen]

Church Position of Christs Nature

[8thdaypriest]

Physically - He was just like us.

But He and the Father SHARE one spirit.

So He was born "indwelt."

We are NOT born indwelt.

"Human nature without divine nature is carnal." Just witness any selfish 2-year-old.

Jesus was born with the indwelling.

We are NOT - until we choose it, and surrender to it.

But HE was subjected to a more severe test than any one of us will ever be called upon to endure.

Just my opinion.

[Gibs]

What matters is the fact He was made like unto His Brethren in "ALL" things.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He took no power but we can have, please read,

"Satan represents God’s law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men and women to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. “In all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren” (Hebrews 2:17). {BLJ 55.2}

If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was “in all points tempted like as we are” (Hebrews 4:15). He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, “I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart” (Psalm 40:8). {BLJ 55.3}

" Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In his own character he displayed to the world the character of God. He pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence. By his words, his influence, and his example, he made men feel that it was possible for them to return to their loyalty and be reinstated in God's favor. He led them to see that if they repented, if their characters were transformed after the divine similitude, they would win immortality. {RH, December 15, 1896 par. 7}

I don't know what anyone would need but those testimonies to know with assurance the truth of this!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Unbiblical? Does a newborn need a Savior?

Not until he commits a sin.

Explain to me then why everyone born in this planet are "by nature children of wrath," i.e. estranged from God.

ESV | ýEph 2:3 "among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

And why every single person since Adam except Christ has sinned.

ESV | ýRo 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—"

While SDAs do not understand original sin in the same way Catholics teach it, there is no question that as the representative of the human race, we in some sence participate in his guilt because we are born estranged from the Father.

Here is SDA theologian Raoul Dederen has to say:

Adventists do not stress the idea of original sin in the sense that “personal, individual moral guilt adheres to Adam’s descendants because of his [Adam’s] sin. They stress, instead, that his sin resulted in the condition of estrangement from God in which every human being is born. This estrangement involves an inherent tendency to commit sin”

Dederen, R. (2001). Vol. 12: Handbook of Seventh-Day Adventist Theology (electronic ed.). Commentary Reference Series (265). Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Unbiblical? Does a newborn need a Savior?

Not until he commits a sin.

ESV | ýPs 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Everyone human being is selfish from the word go. Where does a child get this trait? At what point does a child become accountable for the sin of selfishness?

[Gerr]

Here is EGW's only statement that I could find about original sin:

To a large degree Satan has succeeded in the execution of his plans. Through the medium of influence, taking advantage of the action of mind on mind, he prevailed on Adam to sin. Thus at its very source human nature was corrupted. And ever since then sin has continued its hateful work, reaching from mind to mind. Every sin committed awakens the echoes of the original sin. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 5}

She clearly states that Adam's original disobedience corrupted the whole human race.

[Gerr]

After we rise from the waters of baptism, we are just as much sinners as we were before the new birth, because our primary sin of nature has not been removed by conversion. After the close of probation, when the censer of forgiving grace has been cast down, we are still sinning by nature. Even though we may choose to die rather than sin in act, we are still just as guilty of the primary sin of nature as we were when in open rebellion against God, and we need continuous forgiveness of that sin as much as ever. How is this forgiving grace supplied when the work of mercy for sinners has closed, and all must stand in God’s sight without a Mediator, with no ongoing intercession for our sins? (EW 48,71; GC 614; SR 403) Obviously there is no possibility of sinless living as long as we keep these fallen, sinning natures, despite the inspired testimony that we can “live lives of sinlessness.” (RH, April 1, 1902; II-IP 146) The Augustinian view of sin may have a rich tradition in Christian history, but it is impossible to blend this view with the Adventist understanding of the great controversy.

http://www.dennispriebe.com/new/node/16

ESV | ýRo 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Until you make a distinction between premeditated/conscious disobedience and unintentional sins, we will have differing points of view. I offend people without even meaning to. When someone pushes certain hot buttons, I am already angry before I realize it. What kind of sin are we liable for? Is it not the intentional/premeditated act? I do believe that truly born again disciples can come to the point of living sinless lives in the sense that that will never again commit a conscious/intentional act of disobedience. But sinful acts that bypass your conscious will? They will always be present as long as you and I are trapped in this body of sin.

[Gibs]

You are hung up on original sin Gerry.

We now when born again can overcome that and go about without sinning now that Christ dwells in us. So now we don't commit sin and so none is counted against us.

Yes for sure Jesus took upon himself our fallen sinful nature, but He only obeyed the Divine Spirit in Him and never sinned once and so NO sin is counted against Him!

Yes Gerry, "NO SIN" and He Truly did take upon Himself our sinful nature!

We "MUST" be overcomers as He was, please read,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[8thdaypriest]

"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" Philippians 1:6

"I will put My Spirit within your and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." (Ezekiel 36:27)

We can do NOTHING to perfect ourselves. HE will get all the credit for our rehabilitation. Our part is to believe in HIM, and to cooperate with HIS work in us.

When Caleb said, "we are well able to overcome it" he didn't mean "we" alone. He meant - with the LORD our helper. (Numbers 13:30)

[Just an aside: There were THREE people who left Egypt - and crossed the Jordan into Canaan. Caleb - a descendant of Esau-so mixed multitude, Joshua-an Ephriamite, AND Eleazar - the High Priest - obviously Levite.]

Our sinful tendencies appear like the "giants" in Canaan. We KNOW that we can't be perfect. All we can do is cling to HIM in faith, believing that HE "is able" to do "far above all that we ask or think."

That is WHY the 24 Elders throw their crowns at His feet. They KNOW that they didn't do anything worth a crown.

OK - Let's say that you hear on the news that pedophiles from every prison are going to be released BECAUSE Dr. Robinson has developed the PERFECT cure. You would be rather alarmed - right? Cause you KNOW that it's not curable. You would want to SEE some evidence that it works, BEFORE releasing all those men into the general populations. Well - Christ has announced that He plans to give immortality to HUMANS - YUK!!!! They have the incurable sin nature. If I were an unfallen being I would want to see some evidence that Christ can cure the sin nature. I don't want these humans to mess up the whole universe of God. It was awful just watching the mess on earth.

I believe the judgment of Daniel 7 is a judgment OF Christ. CAN He do it? Can He cure humans??? At the conclusion of this judgment it says that dominion of this kingdom is given to Christ, AND "a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, AND the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom." (Daniel 7:14, 22) That puts it right down at the END. In the type, the High Priest went into and came out of the Most Holy Place ON THE SAME DAY. Then He blessed the waiting people.

By that point the unfallen beings will have seen enough evidence that Christ our LORD really CAN cure the sin nature. He died for them 2000 years ago, but He will set them free from death only WHEN He receives the dominion. With "dominion" comes the right to judge, destroy, or save ANYTHING within His dominion.

Many, many people will be resurrected who have only JUST BEGUN the healing process - except that they are covered by the blood of Christ. That would be mind manipulation - which our God doesn't do. If HE would manipulate minds, then WHY didn't He just do that in the first place, and skip all this mess !!!

The 1000 years with Christ in the Father's House (You realize that is the original of the Temple - Heaven itself - so we have to be priests to go in there.) will go a long way towards healing every trace of defensive or selfish thinking, but we will not be finally completely healed UNTIL we have been returned to the land. That's Ezekiel 36:24-27.

It is a process - a very long process. It doesn't happen in an instant - not even at the Second Coming. But somehow Christ will demonstrate that HE can do it. I don't think He will have the finished product to display. But HE will demonstrate in those who believe in Him, enough change that the unfallen beings can agree to given HIM the dominion, and to give immortality to humans.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[Gibs]

Certainly but the man must get up off his "lees" so to speak,

"The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation. There is to be co-operation between God and the repentant sinner. This is necessary for the formation of right principles in the character. Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. On the one side there is infinite wisdom, compassion, and power; on the other, weakness, sinfulness, absolute helplessness. {AA 482.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

You are hung up on original sin Gerry.

We now when born again can overcome that and go about without sinning now that Christ dwells in us. So now we don't commit sin and so none is counted against us.

Yes for sure Jesus took upon himself our fallen sinful nature, but He only obeyed the Divine Spirit in Him and never sinned once and so NO sin is counted against Him!

Yes Gerry, "NO SIN" and He Truly did take upon Himself our sinful nature!

We "MUST" be overcomers as He was, please read,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gibs]

No Joe, Jesus never had enmity toward His Father even though He positively did and without a shadow of doubt take on Himself our sinful nature.

If he would have had He would have fallen like a ripe grapefruit into Satan's hands.

He never fell to one sin and so exhibited no enmity.

Another thing is for sure, you cannot fault mine and others testimony on the nature He took as it is scriptural and SOP holds it up solidly.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

No Joe, Jesus never had enmity toward His Father even though He positively did and without a shadow of doubt take on Himself our sinful nature.

If he would have had He would have fallen like a ripe grapefruit into Satan's hands.

He never fell to one sin and so exhibited no enmity.

Another thing is for sure, you cannot fault mine and others testimony on the nature He took as it is scriptural and SOP holds it up solidly.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Gibs,

If Christ took on our sinful nature the way you claim He did, His spiritual nature was exactly the same as ours, and we are born hostile to God and with hostility towards His law.

You can't argue Christ took our exact sinful nature, and then when it's plainly put out in front of you deny that's what it means. IOW's, you cannot have it both ways.

Either Christ took our exact sinful nature or He didn't. You're claiming He did, while denying it at the same time.

[olger]

Jesus had to wrestle with something that Adam did not: An inner will in conflict with His Father's.

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42).

[joeb]

Jesus had to wrestle with something that Adam did not: An inner will in conflict with His Father's.

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42).

[joeb]

Olger,

Here's another quote about what I showed in the above post. It's even clearer about the struggle the Father went through.

Quote:

Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, “He is in close converse with His Father.” The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Early Writings p. 126

Interesting isn't it? It took the Son 3 tries to talk the Father into going through with the plan of redemption, and He asked His Father 3 times if it was not possible for there to be another way. Yet, every prayer of the Son's included His submission to His Father's will.

I don't find such a prayer to be evidence of a fallen nature at all, especially when you take into consideration Ellen White's description of the incident in Gethsemane found in the Desire of Ages in the chapter Gethsemane.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The Son had to plead with the Father to allow Him to go through the plan laid from before the creation of the world, and the Father could not yield His Son to die without a struggle.

So, if you're claiming that the text you quoted is evidence of Christ's fallen nature, then the Father had a fallen nature too because He had to struggle with Himself to go through with the plan of redemption.

From what I've studied from the Word, as well as the SoP, I would like to suggest Jesus was born into this world as a Babe with man's (Adam's)nature before Adam sinned, and just as Adam was tempted so also was Jesus, the difference being that Adam yielded while Jesus didn't. Therefore Jesus' nature has always been spotless, whereas all of the rest of human society gained the fallen nature of Adam through genetics and had to be born again to be recreated in the likeness of the spotless Son of God, something only possible through receiving of His unfallen nature after being washed in the blood of Jesus, the Lamb without spot or wrinkle.

God cares!