This is Information All SDA's Should Know Of

[Gustave]

I don't care what Longacre or anybody else says. She plainly says deity "cannot sink and die," so how can deity be lost. He obviously misunderstood what she said just the same way you are misunderstanding it.

[Guest]

No, that doesn't work RLH - you need to craft it in the way of someone...

...Keeping or loosing something.

Ellen said that Christ's deity could not be lost WHILE He remained loyal...

You are right about the context used here. I was just trying to help Gerry out, but I forgot that he doesn't have the proper understanding on the nature of Christ.

It would be nice if all SDAs were united in their beliefs. But those days are long gone.

[Gustave]

It's no problem RLH, you're an honest guy and I appreciate the discussion with you.

I would venture to say that Gibs, from what I've witnessed....

...holds to the historic SDA faith ( back when it was unified under Ellen White ).

[Guest]

It's no problem RLH, you're an honest guy and I appreciate the discussion with you.

I would venture to say that Gibs, from what I've witnessed....

...holds to the historic SDA faith ( back when it was unified under Ellen White ).

No, actually Gibs view is foreign to the pioneers view. He believes that there was no Son of God before Bethlehem. And so he rejects what EGW says in that regard.

I am the historical SDA. )

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

It's no problem RLH, you're an honest guy and I appreciate the discussion with you.

I would venture to say that Gibs, from what I've witnessed....

...holds to the historic SDA faith ( back when it was unified under Ellen White ).

No, actually Gibs view is foreign to the pioneers view. He believes that there was no Son of God before Bethlehem. And so he rejects what EGW says in that regard.

I am the historical SDA. )

He says that?

John 3,17

For God SENT not his Son INTO the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 8,42

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me

The "Son" was "the Son" prior to being sent into the world....

...Has Gibs explained that one?

[Guest]

He says that?

John 3,17

For God SENT not his Son INTO the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The "Son" was "the Son" prior to being sent into the world....

...Has Gibs explained that one?

To his satisfaction, yes. Over and over again. You are now about to see it for yourself, I'm pretty sure.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

It is my understanding that had the man Jesus failed, that mysterious blending would have been mysteriously uncoupled.

I don't think so Gerry. If that were the case then there would have been no real risk to Christ. The only real risk would have been in losing us. Consider these quotes:

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. {GCB, December 1, 1895 par. 22}

Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled.{COL 196.4}

Of course this doesn't make sense if you believe that Christ only took on our physical nature. As you have stated in the past.

IOW, you believe what Gustave is saying that EGW taught that Christ's deity could have ceased to exist? A ridiculous notion! If I lose my house from foreclosure because I failed to pay my mortgage, the house and I part, I lose the house, but does the house cease to exist?

What was at risk if Jesus failed? His deity? As I said, that's ridiculous. Deity cannot possibly "sink and die" as she clearly stated. So whose eternal existence was at stake? The Man Jesus Christ and OUR own eternal destiny. What else was at stake? The stability of God's gov't itself! Recall that Lucifer rebelled against God's gov't. He thought that exulted beings did not need law. No gov't can exist without law. Jesus came to uphold that law. In fact if I recall correctly what she said, the vindication of that broken law is even of more paramount importance than the salvation of man.

That is how heaven and eternity could have been imperiled had Jesus failed in His mission. A deity that could cease to exist? Impossible!

But consider what Gustave has been saying in effect - because Jesus is deity, there is NO possibility He could have failed. In that case, He could not possibly been a real man, because man not only possibly could fail, Adam did fail.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

BTW, if you insist on avoiding/evading/ignoring my questions, then you can post all you want but I will not answer them.

What have a missed, I meet the issues you bring up head-on...

How could you have missed it? I've asked it at least THREE X. But here it is again:

If there was no possibility of Christ failing in His mission, was He a real man or not? Was He the Second Adam or not? Was His temptation real or just a charade?

[Gibs]

Of course, no problem. Certainly He, Jesus the Son was proclaimed from away back yon but no ONLY BEGOTTEN Son was even conceived in Mary the mother of Christ and that was at Bethlehem around 2,000 yr. ago. ONLY BEGOTTEN is "SOLE" "NONE OTHER!"

Then it was Yahweh of Hosts the Redeemer the Father possessed of Himself in the beginning to be incarnated in the babe of Mary.

Yahweh of Hosts was of the Deity of the Father, a separate of Himself sent forth to come in Christ Jesus to become the Saviour of man.

You must take note, that there is but one Yahweh, one God and Father of all. He, Yahweh of Hosts came out from Yahweh King of Israel, not another God but an extension of Himself. Isaiah explains, and you will plainly see who your Saviour is,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Our Saviour had to be but a man and the Father had to be in Him also to be His guiding Spirit, as the second Adam with his power but our fallen nature taken upon Himself and His only other strength was to allow only the indwelling Spirit of the Father to be Master

The overcoming had to be of a man and not of God! Assuredly is certainly was!

When we are born again of the Spirit we too are now as Adam but with a fallen nature and we are in the same "pickle" as Jesus, now having His strength of His indwelling Spirit to choose to be the ONLY Master and we will be victorious!

He came to have to overcome exactly as you and I must, no power was taken of Him but what is ours!

Remember Satan was on the ground and monitored VERY closely that He, Jesus took no power but is ours!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Gerry, Ellen said Christ's deity could not be lost WHILE He remained true...

...Ellen classified Christ's deity as a "coat" or "article of clothing".

...Christ couldn't loose His coat while He had it on.

But if He took it off He could have lost it!

So if you lost your coat, does the lost coat cease to exist? Or did you just part with your coat?

Quote:

Of course deity could not sink and die, deity = ''God''...

...This is why it's so easy to prove Ellen wasn't a Trinitarian.

...She taught that it was the Pre-Incarnate Christ that risked everything by taking on the mission.

What did the pre-incarnate Christ look like?

Quote:

Charles Longacre was a "Titan" within SDAism...

...As a young man he was converted to the religion.

...Rose through the Church ranks to eventually become secretary of the GC.

I accept EGW as inspired. Longacre - no. So you are wasting your time quoting commentators on what she said.

Originally Posted By: Gerry

She says two natures, the divine and human were mysteriously blended. It is my understanding that had the man Jesus failed, that mysterious blending would have been mysteriously uncoupled.

Where does Ellen even remotely imply this?

...Where does anyone who rubbed shoulders with Ellen imply this?

...Everything written is going the other direction.

If you missed it, here it is again:

"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood."

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7A. 1985 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (232). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

The answer to your question looks very obvious to me. At Bethlehem two natures were "mysteriously blended." Doesn't look reasonable that had the Man Jesus failed, the reverse process would have occured? i.e. UNblended?

[

[joeb]

If you missed it, here it is again:

"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood."

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7A. 1985 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (232). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

The answer to your question looks very obvious to me. At Bethlehem two natures were "mysteriously blended." Doesn't look reasonable that had the Man Jesus failed, the reverse process would have occured? i.e. UNblended?

[Guest]

He also seems to have missed the part about Jesus staking his own eternal existence, by taking our nature. "tempted like as we are"

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. {GCB, December 1, 1895 par. 22}

[Gerr]

Let me repeat what you guys are missing. First, that it is impossible to deity to "sink and die." It that be true, then what eternal existence was at stake? The eternal existence of the man Jesus Christ! Plain as day. As I already said, if I lose my house or coat, I am parted with them, but do they cease to exist?

How was heaven itself imperiled had Jesus the man failed? It would have proven that God's law was impossible to keep. It would have proven to the 2/3 of the angels who remained loyal that Lucifer was right. Yes, heaven would have been in chaos had Jesus failed.

Deity to cease to exist? One who had life "original, unborrowed, underived?" C'mon guys, impossible!!!

[Guest]

If it were just the man, then heaven would not be at stake. There is plenty of evidence to prove you are wrong about this, but you don't want to accept it, so I accept that.

[Gerr]

If it were just the man, then heaven would not be at stake. There is plenty of evidence to prove you are wrong about this, but you don't want to accept it, so I accept that.

Do you think deity can "sink and die"? Cease to exist? How do you understand heaven could have been in peril?

[Gibs]

The only way Gerry that Christ would have been in peril is that the son of God the man born of Mary would have been lost.

That would have been of a very great sorrow to His father. That would been the peril in Heaven.

I am sure you are seeing that Christ's eternal existence was assured as long as He didn't fall to Satan.

"Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption."

I see that you rightly see the Father in Him would not die but the union would be ended prematurely.

Yes as a man Jesus Christ must overcome Satan and not fall as there was no Redeemer for Him.

Yes, without doubt a very great liability was taken. But praises be to Jesus Christ for His sweating blood and yet persevering to allow only the Spirit of His Father to be the Master of the man that He had to be for our redemption!

Praises and Glory be to our heavenly Father for the Gift of Himself in Christ Jesus and the Gift also of His Only Begotten Son.

The realization of this makes me cry! How on earth can we not love our Father and Saviour with all our hearts and souls.

Wonder of wonders this is surely it!

His Blessings to all who truly love Him I pray.

Bro. Gibs.

[Guest]

Gerry my friend. My fellow North Carolinian even. If you will listen to this sermon in it's entirety, then I will listen to anything you want me to listen to, or read anything you want me to read. But I believe if you listen to it, you will change your viewpoint. At least somewhat:

Why is the Nature of Christ Important?

https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/312/why-is-the-nature-of-christ-important.html

[olger]

"Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss" {DA 49.1}.

Those are divine words.

[Guest]

Amen brother.

[Gerr]

"Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss" {DA 49.1}.

Those are divine words.

What was at risk of eternal loss? That deity would cease to exist?

[Gerr]

Gerry my friend. My fellow North Carolinian even. If you will listen to this sermon in it's entirety, then I will listen to anything you want me to listen to, or read anything you want me to read. But I believe if you listen to it, you will change your viewpoint. At least somewhat:

Why is the Nature of Christ Important?

https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/312/why-is-the-nature-of-christ-important.html

What's the matter Richard, you can't answer a simple question on your own?

Do you think deity can "sink and die"? Cease to exist? How do you understand heaven could have been in peril?

[Gibs]

Again, our Father only had but the one ONLY BEGOTTEN Son and that didn't happen back in eternity. He was declared but didn't come in Mary until around 2,000 yrs. ago.

When He was conceived in Mary the Fathers Redeemer, extended from Himself, LORD of Hosts came in Him. Heavens great commander then was emptied of Him.

Then was the incarnation into the body prepared for Him, Heb 10:5.

That was a union of the Father and the man Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ then became our Saviour. Our Saviour had to be a man and not a God, He had to be a man from our level and take no power but is ours to do it.

All need to see and understand that LORD of Hosts was the Father extended for this time when it was prophecied. Read Isaiah 53: once, 12 verses!

The Father was in Christ in all fullness! He was not another God or Deity.

When Jesus fulfills the mission of Saviour and all things under His feet that Deity vested in Him returns to our Father.

Read the following well, please!

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yes Father Yahweh is ALL IN ALL again!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Gerry my friend. My fellow North Carolinian even. If you will listen to this sermon in it's entirety, then I will listen to anything you want me to listen to, or read anything you want me to read. But I believe if you listen to it, you will change your viewpoint. At least somewhat:

Why is the Nature of Christ Important?

https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/312/why-is-the-nature-of-christ-important.html

What's the matter Richard, you can't answer a simple question on your own?

Do you think deity can "sink and die"? Cease to exist? How do you understand heaven could have been in peril?

I'll take that as a no. And that you are content to never learn another thing. You must already know everything, and know that all of it is right.

And, no. She said that it DID NOT sink and die. Said that would be impossible, speaking in the context of His success. She did not comment on it otherwise. But from her other statements, it sounds like maybe it could/would have. I don't know. But I'm sure you do.

[Gerr]

I'll check out your link, but his opinion would be no better than yours or mine.

I heard enough to conclude that Priebe believes Jesus had the same inborn sinful propensities as we have, but I will listen some more when I have more time.

However, here is something from her pen to consider if you are willing to listen.

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7A. 1985 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (247). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Guest]

I'll check out your link, but his opinion would be no better than yours or mine.

Good! But he gives way more than just opinion. Have an open mind, and just check it out. :)