Could Paul had Homosexual Orientation?

[Dr. Shane]

Good discussion. Adventists often jump into deeper theological discussions than those in other denominations. This is good for us.

What would cause a married Pharisee with children to get castrated? I admit I need more education regarding the Pharisees' rules and practices.

I know why a man with gay tendencies would get married - that happens all the time. However we know Paul was single during his ministry because he tells us so. He also tells us that each man should have a wife so they don't burn with lust. So that begs the question 'why didn't he have a wife?' - especially since there were more women than men. There obviously was a reason he didn't have a wife.

[Ted Oplinger]

Good discussion. Adventists often jump into deeper theological discussions than those in other denominations. This is good for us.

What would cause a married Pharisee with children to get castrated? I admit I need more education regarding the Pharisees' rules and practices.

I know why a man with gay tendencies would get married - that happens all the time. However we know Paul was single during his ministry because he tells us so. He also tells us that each man should have a wife so they don't burn with lust. So that begs the question 'why didn't he have a wife?' - especially since there were more women than men. There obviously was a reason he didn't have a wife.

If memory serves me correctly...every member of the Sanhedrin had to be married. Paul had a wife...up until the Damascus road experience. I do not know for certain if she followed him into the Christian faith, but he made a curious reference which makes me think she very well did.

Paul had absolutely everything to lose when Christ confronted him that day. Prestige as the up and coming power man in the Sanhedrin. Status, in being a student to the most powerful lawyer in the Sanhedrin at that time. Wife. Family. Career.

Paul makes a very interesting comment in 1 Corinthians 9:5, 6, which leads me to conclude Paul may not have been as single as we tend to think him to be...

"Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? Or are only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working?"

Paul is here including himself and Barnabas as having the right to bring their believing wives with them, even as it is accorded to the rest of the apostles. One does not make a claim for equal treatment, if one has no real point to make in not having a believing wife to take along in the first place.

If he was merely speaking on behalf of Barnabas, then why did he include himself in that assertion of rights?

Like Paul asserting his Roman citizenship in Philippi...it does one no good to argue the point unless there is a real reason and basis to assert the right.

That said, it is clear Paul did not take a wife on his missionary journeys - by his own description of what he suffered on them, he doubtless told her it was far too dangerous to include her in his travails and travels. They agreed to be apart - for the sake of God.

As for Paul having a homosexual orientation...no, I will not accept this new effort to remake the Bible greats into homosexual heroes. Given the breadth and depth of Paul's Scriptural knowledge, and given what he wrote concerning the subject in Romans 1:26, 27, I'd say it was a safe bet to say the thought of homosexual behavior was disgusting to him. He would, however, treat the homosexual turning away from that lifestyle as a new person, as he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:16, 17.

Blessings,

[Naomi]

[skyblue888]

Shane, Was not Paul, before his conversion,

a member of the Sanhedrin?

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, Was not Paul, before his conversion,

a member of the Sanhedrin?

[Gibs]

There is something that all must remember, and that is there is a reason the LORD God revealed so much to Paul and made him the clearest teacher on many points and the things prophetic he revealed is to be reckoned with.

Pauls teachings squares up the Spiritual building in us if we read and understand him.

I love Apostle Paul, I love all the Apostles, but Paul was a brand broke loose from Satan and filth wasn't his mistake.

Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Shane, Was not Paul, before his conversion,

a member of the Sanhedrin?

Good question.

Was the apostle Paul married?

Quote:

The Bible never says whether Paul was married or not. Some think that he was at one time based on what he said in 1 Corinthians 9:5, "Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?" If Paul was married at one time, his wife likely passed away considering he never mentions her in any of his writings. Paul declared that he had the gift of celibacy in 1 Corinthians 7:1-7.

Paul’s statement to the unmarried and widows in the Corinthian church gives evidence that he was not married at the time of his writing the letter: “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion” (1 Corinthians 7:8-9). Clearly, he was not married at that time, but whether he married afterward is also a matter of speculation.

Some believe that the apostle Paul was married because history tells us that a member of the Sanhedrin was required to be married. However, Paul never stated that he was a member of the Sanhedrin. He definitely seemed to be on the path, "I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers" (Galatians 1:14). However, Paul might not have advanced that far before he converted to Christ.

So, Was the apostle Paul married? It is possible that he was at one time, but again, the Bible does not specifically say.

The SOP may provide more information but I haven't the time to look today. Based on 1 Cor. 7:8,9 we know that he was single at that time. Being married certainly doesn't mean he wasn't gay. The three things that makes one think he could have had a gay orientation is 1. His self-loathing (very common among gays) 2. His thorn-in-the-flesh to keep him humble 3. Something about him make it probably others [Christians] would make fun or think poorly of him 4. He was not married (at least during part of his ministry).

Having a gay orientation isn't a bad thing. It is simply an area of temptation which is normally caused by either our genetics or childhood environment - neither of which we have any control over. We are all born with a propensity toward a specific sin due to either genetics or our environment. For some that is lying, others gossip, over-eating for some, stealing and the list can go on and on. Same-sex attraction is simply a temptation and Paul's self-loathing seems to indicate it was something particularly disgusting that he hated. He called himself the chief of sinners and in Romans chapter 7 refers to his flesh as a body of death.

It isn't just one thing but the four together than makes one scratch their head and think,,, maybe.

Wouldn't know about that, Shane, as when I was in high school and college all 4 of those points were extremely true - and I was (and am) not homosexually oriented at all - I am very much heterosexual in orientation. From personal experience, I can tell you:

1. Self-loathing can be based in many other factors other than homosexuality. Anorexics are also self-loathing, for example. All it takes is to see some aspect of one's self that becomes disgusting in one's own sight.

2. Thorns-in-the-flesh are common to all people, regardless if we wish to admit it or not. Every one of us has a trait or two which we have continually prayed for victory over, yet God allows the struggle to remain in place.

3. This is a product coming from the difference between what one is by reputation, versus what one is by how they act and relate personally. It can also come as a product of slow self-esteem, being re-enforced by #'s 1 and 2 - particularly if #2 is public knowledge. Paul was quite the lion in his epistles, but came across as small and meek in person...pretty much what we would call "nerdy"; the difference between his thundering letters and his personal deportment appears rather huge, by his own admission.

4. That would lead to the conclusion that all bachelors are candidates for being homosexual. If homosexuality is not precluded by marriage, then it isn't strengthened by being single, either.

All these 4 together do is make me scratch my head and say, "They're human".

Blessings,

[Dr. Shane]

When I was in high school and college I wasn't too mature but even at my immature state then, I did not loath myself to the degree that Paul did in Romans chapter 7 and I never thought I was the worst of the worst or chief of the sinners. I don't think that kind of self-loathing is a normal experience for most people. At least it wasn't for me.

When Paul stated he was single he also stated he wish everyone could be like him - celebrate. This, after stating that one should marry to avoid burning in lust. That makes it sound quite certain that he had no intention of marrying after that. And in ancient times there were more women than men so he would have had several opportunities.

To me, those points make me think that he could have had a gay orientation which would have only testified of God's power to save and make his rebuke of homosexual behavior all that more valid.

God bless.

[Gibs]

Well, you know Shane I really think when we get right down to it each and every one of us comes to the conclusion, or at least I have that Paul needs to move over and allow me to have the spot as the chief of sinners.

It's a coming to the realization of how high and Holy is our God and how lowly and filthy a rag we are, and the Holy Spirit convicted Paul of that and in his anguish he expressed his hearts groaning for the sins he had committed and for the thoughts that run in his mind like all of us with fallen natures.

Christ too in taking on Himself our fallen natures also had to learn obedience since He was made like unto us so as to be our example, and so Christ prayed to His Father a lot and took His strengh by Spirit from the Father to overcome Satan and all sin.

When we are born again we begin to realize as Paul our great need of Christ to be within and to always allow only Him to be Master in us, or we will fall.

It was Paul who gave us this wonderful message,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

When I was in high school and college I wasn't too mature but even at my immature state then, I did not loath myself to the degree that Paul did in Romans chapter 7 and I never thought I was the worst of the worst or chief of the sinners. I don't think that kind of self-loathing is a normal experience for most people. At least it wasn't for me.

When Paul stated he was single he also stated he wish everyone could be like him - celebrate. This, after stating that one should marry to avoid burning in lust. That makes it sound quite certain that he had no intention of marrying after that. And in ancient times there were more women than men so he would have had several opportunities.

To me, those points make me think that he could have had a gay orientation which would have only testified of God's power to save and make his rebuke of homosexual behavior all that more valid.

God bless.

[Ted Oplinger]

When I was in high school and college I wasn't too mature but even at my immature state then, I did not loath myself to the degree that Paul did in Romans chapter 7 and I never thought I was the worst of the worst or chief of the sinners. I don't think that kind of self-loathing is a normal experience for most people. At least it wasn't for me.

[Gibs]

Ted,

I agree that Paul no doubt put Christ and the Father first and best above all and I know we must do the same.

That may seem hard when it seems the whole of your family and the world is against you to follow Him but that it must be.

I would hope that all who claim Him are so dedicated.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Shane:

Having a gay orientation isn't a bad thing. It is simply an area of temptation which is normally caused by either our genetics or childhood environment - neither of which we have any control over. We are all born with a propensity toward a specific sin due to either genetics or our environment. For some that is lying, others gossip, over-eating for some, stealing and the list can go on and on.

What gets me is the idea that a homosexual propensity is somehow this exceptionally horrible thing. Now, I admit to a problem with cruelty and desires that victimize others (stealing, deceitfulness, murder, covetousness).

Did Paul have this propensity? I have no idea, really.

It's the message that really would exclude homosexuals that I see quite differently.

It seems like, "OH MY! He couldn't have had THAT desire!"

Maybe church isn't for all people with certain weaknesses, then. Sounds exclusive to me.

Tony

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Ted Oplinger

no, I will not accept this new effort to remake the Bible greats into homosexual heroes.

This is a far cry from what Shane is doing.

First off, my guess is Shane is not trying (read: effort) to "remake the Bible." My guess is he honestly sees this as Bible truth, with no effort to do so.

Secondly, Paul is one person. My guess is we will not see another topic such as "Was Jeremiah gay?" from Shane.

Tony

[debbym]

I think it is possible, but i also believe that we do not have to have a gay paul to believe that

" a person with a gay orientation can live a satisfying life of celibacy acceptable to God. That is an option suggested in an APA report published August 6, 2009 in USA Today."

the Resurrection of Christ is far and enough evidence and demonstrates quite enough power for anyone to live a new life in the power of God to do His will whatever it is.

[Gibs]

The gay lifestyle is increasing rapidly anymore, they are coming out of the woodwork especially since Clintons.

I read once the percentage of girls coming out of high school now that are gay and forget the percentage but it floored me, unbelievable!

What Paul said about it and this account in the Bible is all that comes to my mind, any know of more?

Ge 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Ge 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Ge 9:24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Ge 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Ted Oplinger]

The gay lifestyle is increasing rapidly anymore, they are coming out of the woodwork especially since Clintons.

I read once the percentage of girls coming out of high school now that are gay and forget the percentage but it floored me, unbelievable!

What Paul said about it and this account in the Bible is all that comes to my mind, any know of more?

Ge 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Ge 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Ge 9:24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Ge 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I agree, Gibs - that particular lifestyle is increasingly chosen as people are deceived into thinking that just any kind of lifestyle is OK if one justifies it as "being made this way"...homosexuality is but one of those falling into that catagory.

Out of the media and our political correctness police comes the flood of philosophy that the homosexual choice is no different than the inclination to drink alcohol. Couple this with the teachings from apostate Christendom that most of the great Bible men were either homosexual or oriented that way (even Jesus is cast in that role), and it is enough to make one's head spin.

I don't buy this philosophy at all, nor do I buy into the speculation of "just maybe X WAS homosexual/had a homosexual orientation because of Y things observed in the Bible". Short of getting a hold of God's records peering into the inside of Paul's (or any of the Bible's men of faith) soul, could we know. It is simply sheer speculation introduced by those desiring to justify the lifestyle, not just the orientation.

More food for thought...

[Gail]

Quote:

The gay lifestyle is increasing rapidly anymore, they are coming out of the woodwork especially since Clintons.

I read once the percentage of girls coming out of high school now that are gay and forget the percentage but it floored me, unbelievable!

Is it actually increasing, or is it simply safer for homosexuals to admit it publicly than it used to be?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Quote:

The gay lifestyle is increasing rapidly anymore, they are coming out of the woodwork especially since Clintons.

I read once the percentage of girls coming out of high school now that are gay and forget the percentage but it floored me, unbelievable!

Is it actually increasing, or is it simply safer for homosexuals to admit it publicly than it used to be?

Or is it part of the gay political agenda to artifically inflate the percentage of gay people to make it "seem" more socially prevalent and accepted?

I once read a statistic that one in four of us is gay. Maybe I'm sheltered; but I don't believe that. Maybe one in 50 or one in 100 ...

At any rate, whether or not Paul was gay or had gay tendencies is irrelevant to me. In the end, He listened to Jesus and spent the rest of his life wholeheartedly fighting for the Gospel. Oh, that I could be half the man of God Paul was!

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

The gay lifestyle is increasing rapidly anymore, they are coming out of the woodwork especially since Clintons.

I read once the percentage of girls coming out of high school now that are gay and forget the percentage but it floored me, unbelievable!

Is it actually increasing, or is it simply safer for homosexuals to admit it publicly than it used to be?

In what way do we define "safer", Gail? Safer in this world's fallen eyes, or safer for heaven's society? Is the world crying "Peace and safety!" to those homosexual orientation, while covering up the fast-approaching, long-term destruction that awaits anyone (not just the homosexually-oriented) who attempts to justify their flesh as OK?

When do we in love cry out against the sin, to warn against the sure consequences of indulging the sin? To do so today is to be labelled as bigoted, unloving, or worse...even in the SDA church.

It used to be one of God's tools for repentance to have His people care enough to cast shame on sins of depravity and intemperance - not in violent hatred (though that has unfortunately occurred far too often), but of putting away "sin in the camp" through either converting or re-locating the person. Just because one is "oriented" or "inclined" a certain way does not mean God gives permission to indulge that orientation/inclination outside His Word. As I understand the Bible, God has every right to expect His people to put away their sins, no matter what their orientation or inclination may be - and has consistently held this position throughout all His dealings with sinful man. Unfortunately for today's politically correct, homosexual behavior is defined in the Bible to be an abomination of a sin to God (just like bestophilia) - and God does expect it to be put away by those who have indulged in it, and avoided by those so inclined.

Likewise, as I understand the Bible, the sexual sins are especially corrupting of one's soul, as they draw the entirety of one's being into the sin. Do we love all "orientations" enough to sound this warning?

Both Noah and Lot found themselves to be drunkards, which led to significant relatives to sin. Moses and Paul had severe anger streaks running through them - enough to drive them to actually murder in the name of righteousness. Samson had both the temper as well as the heterosexual libido to overcome. God expected them to put away their sins by faith - and Hebrews 11 reminds us the OT men did.

Gail - please understand, I am simply trying to get to the root of issues we as the Remnant must necessarily face as God prods us to give the final warnings against all sin (not just the homosexual kind). To the point of the homosexually oriented, though - do we love them enough to warn them against sin, and risk being labelled unfairly?

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

So Paul was a gay man with anger management problems. I'm a dirty old heterosexual man with addictive behaviors. Some of you may have problems with tendencies toward alcohol or drug abuse, obesity, gossip, judgement, racism - whatever.

God was stronger than any issues Paul had - and Paul bowed to that power and authority and became an overcomer and an apostle. God is stronger than my issues, too; and with His grace and my cooperation, I can be an overcomer on a daily basis. No matter what your issue - God is stronger; and you can be an overcomer, also! What a great story of encouragement! If God can take people like Peter, Paul, and Mary (apostles and friends of Jesus -and maybe the folk trio as well!)and make them overcomers and saints, He can do the same for us!

[Gibs]

Quote:

The gay lifestyle is increasing rapidly anymore, they are coming out of the woodwork especially since Clintons.

I read once the percentage of girls coming out of high school now that are gay and forget the percentage but it floored me, unbelievable!

Is it actually increasing, or is it simply safer for homosexuals to admit it publicly than it used to be?

Satan is rapidly getting more and more in his web and yes it is increasing rapidly now as it is being pushed and koshered.

Now days it is no sin, we need that for population control they say. If it isn't true already as many are dying as being born

[Gail]

??? I've never heard that said, that it was needed for population control.

[Ted Oplinger]

??? I've never heard that said, that it was needed for population control.

Ummmm....I'm kinda lost on that one as well.

Gibs, care to explain that a bit?

Blessings,

[olger]

??? I've never heard that said, that it was needed for population control.

Homosexuality is being justified on the basis that it is useful for reducing the human population and carbon emissions. Supporting this view is Helen Stocker, Max Nordau, and others.

Marquis de Sade, the forerunner of existentialism and nihilism, advocated homosexuality (he himself one) to prevent births and reduce what he felt was overpopulation in France (ca 1740).

The world of Sade is all around us. It is an undercurrent in modern life - a pornographic culture in which sex is separated from the family and pro-creation and reduced to irresponsible pleasure. Against this onslaught, a lawless church, professing to believe the Bible while abandoning the Creator God and His divine Law is totally helpless.

Other advocates of homosexuality for population-control measures are G. Roger Denson "So why shouldn't homosexuality be seen as providing a viable option to overpopulation--to the point that the world's nations come to encourage its practice and esteem its benefits? It is, after all, the most harmonious way to control the population--considering all that's required is that we love and support our gay sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, parents, friends, lovers, and selves."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/g-roger-denson/is-homosexuality-populati_b_784449.html

Raymond Bohlin, Henry Kissenger, Preston Hunter, and Roland Hulme are also proponents of this thinking.

http://www.edenfantasys.com/sexis/sex-and-society/homosexuality-next-stage-evolution-0613111/

One of the greatest failures of the contemporary church of America is our attempt to make the gospel of Jesus palatable to lost sinners—our effort to take away its offense, remove its reproach, water down its contents and explain away its standards. In doing so, we dishonor the Lord and contribute to the damnation of the lost. It’s time we wake up and repent of this worldly, faithless approach.

Rejoice always,

`G