Could Paul had Homosexual Orientation?

[Ted Oplinger]

Ah, I see the connection now. Thanks, Olger.

Blessings,

[olger]

Welcome, Sir!

[Ted Oplinger]

Just read your take on Romans 1 on another thread. Nice analysis.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Put these two in the balances, homosexuality on one and abortions on the other.

Which way would it overbalance on the worldly scale?

Which way would it overbalance on the Godly scale?

Which way would the balance go with homosexuality on one and masturbation on the other?

EGW labled masturbation the secret sin or vice!

The world labels these sins as a necessary for our time and is needed as so many can't afford a family, etc, etc!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error

[Gordon1]

Acting on the orientation is what makes a person homosexual, ..a liar, ..a thief, ..an alcoholic...

Jesus said we have committed adultery if we lust after a woman in our heart. (Matthew 5:28)

He was bringing true life & meaning to the O.T. view of the Ten Commandments.

Our thoughts must be changed, not merely our actions.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

One of the greatest failures of the contemporary church of America is our attempt to make the gospel of Jesus palatable to lost sinners—our effort to take away its offense, remove its reproach, water down its contents and explain away its standards.

That is actually quite profound, Olger. If the Church is to remain true God's Word, it will offend others, even though the church means no offense. People will take the light offered by the church as darkness; and reject it - rebel against it.

Funny thing - whether one presents the gospel from a "liberal" point of view or a "conservative" point of view, the fact that it involves turning over the trust and control of your life to an invisible and relatively unknown (some might say unknowable) spirit being can be taken as foolish and ridiculous to many - even downright dangerous to some. So they will be offended.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Our thoughts must be changed, not merely our actions.

Only God can renew our minds. This is a part of salvation that God must work in us. Speaking for myself, I find it difficult to impossible to control where my thoughts take me on my own. I need the Holy Spirit to renew and guide my mind.

[Gordon1]

One of the greatest failures of the contemporary church of America is ....

Diminishing God's Law of justice & mercy is the role of an apostate church.

Such will blur the line between good and evil.

[joeb]

Quote:

Shane:

Having a gay orientation isn't a bad thing. It is simply an area of temptation which is normally caused by either our genetics or childhood environment - neither of which we have any control over. We are all born with a propensity toward a specific sin due to either genetics or our environment. For some that is lying, others gossip, over-eating for some, stealing and the list can go on and on.

What gets me is the idea that a homosexual propensity is somehow this exceptionally horrible thing. Now, I admit to a problem with cruelty and desires that victimize others (stealing, deceitfulness, murder, covetousness).

Did Paul have this propensity? I have no idea, really.

It's the message that really would exclude homosexuals that I see quite differently.

It seems like, "OH MY! He couldn't have had THAT desire!"

Maybe church isn't for all people with certain weaknesses, then. Sounds exclusive to me.

Tony

So, you think it's possible that God would tempt Paul with homosexual leanings? The text says God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him from becoming arrogant because of all the spiritual revelations he was given. The language of the text pretty much precludes a "pre-existing" condition, so this is something God has laid on him during his ministry to keep him humble.

Now, do you really think God purposely tempts men to sin just to keep them humble?

[JonathanChuunka]

Hello My Brothers and Sisters,

While i find this topic disgusting and being a topic which would

bring much shame to the pro-claimers of the three angels..

First of all it is not even a topic worth discussing about..My Brother SHANE

seek God's guidance and you will see that all things will be open to you..

Otherwise if you tend to use the worldly knowledge you have acquired, you

will be cheating yourself...and once you go contrary to the bible, the other spirit will be the one answering and inspiring, and this other spirit, i mean Demons...

The Bible is clear in the old and new testament, saying that Homosexuality is not allowed, i do not know why you would waste much of your precious time trying to prove that Paul had a Gay Orientation..and to make the matters worse i have not seen any reference from the Spirit of Prophesy, where we get more understanding on the things which are beyond our understanding..

In short i say once again, Seek God'd Guidance...otherwise it is even a disgrace to talk about such a thing.

May the good and caring father above richly bless you.

Jonathan.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

One of the greatest failures of the contemporary church of America is our attempt to make the gospel of Jesus palatable to lost sinners—our effort to take away its offense, remove its reproach, water down its contents and explain away its standards. In doing so, we dishonor the Lord and contribute to the damnation of the lost. It’s time we wake up and repent of this worldly, faithless approach.

that's a quote from an excellent article I posted elsewhere, written by Michael Brown... The Great Sin...

[olger]

Absolutely. I was with Mike at the TruthXchange think tank in Escondido in Feb. The whole article is pretty good.

[whbae]

A desperate drowning person will grab any thing such as even a straw!

[Guest]

One of the greatest failures of the contemporary church of America is our attempt to make the gospel of Jesus palatable to lost sinners—our effort to take away its offense, remove its reproach, water down its contents and explain away its standards. In doing so, we dishonor the Lord and contribute to the damnation of the lost. It’s time we wake up and repent of this worldly, faithless approach.

[Guest]

Hello My Brothers and Sisters,

While i find this topic disgusting and being a topic which would

bring much shame to the pro-claimers of the three angels..

First of all it is not even a topic worth discussing about..My Brother SHANE

seek God's guidance and you will see that all things will be open to you..

Otherwise if you tend to use the worldly knowledge you have acquired, you

will be cheating yourself...and once you go contrary to the bible, the other spirit will be the one answering and inspiring, and this other spirit, i mean Demons...

The Bible is clear in the old and new testament, saying that Homosexuality is not allowed, i do not know why you would waste much of your precious time trying to prove that Paul had a Gay Orientation..and to make the matters worse i have not seen any reference from the Spirit of Prophesy, where we get more understanding on the things which are beyond our understanding..

In short i say once again, Seek God'd Guidance...otherwise it is even a disgrace to talk about such a thing.

May the good and caring father above richly bless you.

Jonathan.

This is kind of the way I was thinking also, about this.

[Ted Oplinger]

Hello My Brothers and Sisters,

While i find this topic disgusting and being a topic which would

bring much shame to the pro-claimers of the three angels..

First of all it is not even a topic worth discussing about..My Brother SHANE

seek God's guidance and you will see that all things will be open to you..

Otherwise if you tend to use the worldly knowledge you have acquired, you

will be cheating yourself...and once you go contrary to the bible, the other spirit will be the one answering and inspiring, and this other spirit, i mean Demons...

The Bible is clear in the old and new testament, saying that Homosexuality is not allowed, i do not know why you would waste much of your precious time trying to prove that Paul had a Gay Orientation..and to make the matters worse i have not seen any reference from the Spirit of Prophesy, where we get more understanding on the things which are beyond our understanding..

In short i say once again, Seek God'd Guidance...otherwise it is even a disgrace to talk about such a thing.

May the good and caring father above richly bless you.

Jonathan.

Welcome to CA, Jonathan.

First post ever, and it has to be in the Theology Townhall...hope it doesn't drive you off. As I posted to another newbie - the Theology Townhalls and Origins forums are *a bit* rough and tumble, as the topics here at times are answered by people from every part of the religious spectrum.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

JonathanChuunka,

I too welcome you to the forum, you will find most are probably very liberal here and I think you and I could agree far too liberal

I must say this that this thread has become disgusting to me also.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error

[Stan]

Ellen White was one of the most liberal people ever in leadership in the Church...

[Ted Oplinger]

Ellen White was one of the most liberal people ever in leadership in the Church...

Nice parry/riposte, Stan.

Blessings,

[olger]

[Dr. Shane]

The text says God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him from becoming arrogant because of all the spiritual revelations he was given. The language of the text pretty much precludes a "pre-existing" condition, so this is something God has laid on him during his ministry to keep him humble.

Now, do you really think God purposely tempts men to sin just to keep them humble?

Great conversation here. A lot of good ideas being shared and challenged. I have enjoyed reading through the thread.

The quote above starts with using one portion of the Scripture as a "proof text". Of course, Adventists try not to do that. Adventists try to build a belief on multiple texts - here a little and there a little. We believe the message is inspired by the Holy Spirit but the exact wording that was chosen was chosen by a human - prophet, apostle, etc. So we get into trouble when we try to tie too much meaning to a specific word used by a Biblical author. That said, even with the wording used, there is more than one way to understand or interpret that. I believe the thorn existed before Paul was Paul. That is, when he was Saul. I do not believe God "gave" him the thorn rather God "allowed" Satan to give him the thorn. Job claimed that God gives and God takes away but we know that Job was wrong. God did give but it was Satan who took.

The quote then ends with a loaded question. That means the person posing the question does so in such a way as to try and force the person answering it to answer as he or she wants. This is in contrast to an open question which encourages the person answering to give a thoughtful and honest answer. God temps no man - but He allows the devil to tempt men. So that becomes a manner of perspective. Some believe if God permits it that is the same as doing it.

Carry on.

[debbym]

Quote:

While i find this topic disgusting and being a topic which would

bring much shame to the pro-claimers of the three angels..

no one suggested the possibility that Paul was a practicing gay.

it brings to view the question, can anyone who is a sinner of many different kinds of sin, become cleansed and worthy through Christ to minister mightily through the Holy Spirit.

or would some sins just be to revolting and God could not use some kinds of sinners, even though they stand fully repentant and forgiven, and steadfast in Christ?

i know he sent demoniacs out as missionaries and it brought a great harvest of Souls. and yes they were forgiven and healed and powerful through the Holy Spirit, but after all they were self mutilators... sigh

God does not see as we see, he hates sin, all sin, your sin my sin, the sin of the conference president, but does he just hate some sin more? Is homosexuality worse then the spiritual pride that drove the Sanhedrin to thirst for the blood of Christ?

[Gustave]

Yes, he "could have" but I doubt it. The Jewish tradition was that he had the hot's for the high priests daughter...

...But the man thought Saul was of too low a breeding to marry his daughter.

...Saul got so mad he took revenge on the Jewish religion - or so the tradition goes.

[Gustave]

Ellen White was one of the most liberal people ever in leadership in the Church...

Probably the most liberal anti-Trinitarian of the bunch....

...Yeah, I could agree with that.

[John317]

...[Ellen White]...Probably the most liberal anti-Trinitarian of the bunch....

Do you really believe an Anti-Trinitarian would write about "the heavenly trio," "the three holiest beings in heaven," refer to Christ as "Jehovah," "the eternal, self-existent Son of God," "equal with the Father," "God essentially and in the highest sense," "Jehovah Immanuel," speak of praying to "Three great Worthies of heaven," sing "praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," and define "the eternal Godhead" as consisting of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," all three of whom felt pity for the human race and "gave Themselves for the working out of the plan of redemption"?

If that is your idea of an anti-Trinitarian, then I say let's have more of such anti-Trinitarians.

As far as concerns EG White's being "the most liberal" in the church, it is true if by "liberal" we mean someone who is liberal in their love and giving to others who are in need. In her personal life, she made a serious attempt to follow Christ in how He loved all people with whom He came in contact. But if by "liberal" it is meant that Ellen White did not have high biblical standards and hold to true doctrines that she demonstrated her willingness to sacrifice her life for, then the word "liberal" does not fit her in the least.