Could Paul had Homosexual Orientation?

[Stan]

Once again I error with responding to a comment and saying the EGW was one of the most liberal people in the Church, that statement itself was not an error but the timing and placement of it was wrong.

Same goes for the Trinitarian statement by others, (only in the placement of it on this section) please leave trinitarian off this topic.

[Gibs]

In defense of the Apostle Paul,

Ah, Stan, you know I don't think the liberals in the church like EGW's statement on this and she made em by the dozens, but this one I like the way she put it,

" We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given his only-begotten Son, that through his shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality. Are you not willing to lay hold on the gracious hope set before you in the gospel? Is it humiliating to seek to win a crown of immortal glory?" {ST, June 15, 1891 par. 4}

I don't think Paul would have had any problem with that statement and was a commandment keeper which todays liberals refute in actuality.

Paul was for sure an overcomer and we all must be if we make it to His Kingdom.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Windsor]

Paul struggled against the flesh as he speaks against the flesh again and again. That puts him in the category of a great majority of men who have to constantly wage a battle against lust towards women. The numbers are far in favor of him having heterosexual tendencies than homosexual ones.

[Windsor]

Ellen White was one of the most liberal people ever in leadership in the Church...

Which of the characteristics of the modern liberal movement within the church share a commonality with Ellen White?

[Woody]

Quote:

that statement itself was not an error

[Gibs]

I'll stand up for Paul, always! He was stalwart for God and Jesus Christ and God gave to Paul many great teachings and prophecies.

Christ was plainly the Master in Paul and not self, he made it clear about being dead of self, this is one of his "shinning" teachings!

He did not allow self to partake of any evil gratifications!

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[mthunzisibindi]

Paul clearly condemned gaysm and as a man who worked so close to God, he new God's furry over such acts.

[Gustave]

Do you really believe an Anti-Trinitarian would write about "the heavenly trio," "the three holiest beings in heaven," refer to Christ as "Jehovah," "the eternal, self-existent Son of God," "equal with the Father," "God essentially and in the highest sense," "Jehovah Immanuel," speak of praying to "Three great Worthies of heaven," sing "praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," and define "the eternal Godhead" as consisting of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," all three of whom felt pity for the human race and "gave Themselves for the working out of the plan of redemption"?

[o2bwise]

For me the bottom line runs alongside Hebrews stating that Christ was tempted in all ways we can be tempted.

If Paul had a homosexual orientation and if he successfully crucified such a lust of the flesh, his stature is in no wise diminished by having such a weakness.

Shane carefully differentiated a PULL from SUBMISSION TO A PULL.

ANYONE who has leveled criticism of the IDEA is mistaken.

Now, I can see criticism of the biblical argument. That is not what I am referring to and on that point, I just don't know.

But, I see no merit in ANY of the posts here that critique the hypothesis from the lone perspective of assigning a necessary immorality to any person with this particular weakness.

To me, it just does not matter. What matters not is his or any man's personal weakness he is encumbered with.

What does matter is how one handles his life, whether he submits to the grace of Christ as the means through which his flesh is crucified with all its lusts and passions versus whether he does not.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

For me the bottom line runs alongside Hebrews stating that Christ was tempted in all ways we can be tempted.

[olger]

Once again I error with responding to a comment and saying the EGW was one of the most liberal people in the Church, that statement itself was not an error but the timing and placement of it was wrong.

Same goes for the Trinitarian statement by others, (only in the placement of it on this section) please leave trinitarian off this topic.

Accepted on both counts, Sir.

[olger]

Paul clearly condemned gaysm and as a man who worked so close to God, he new God's furry over such acts.

He said "gayism."

I like that.

[Gibs]

Until God comes into a man and hues and prunes and works on the soul temple all men are rough and needing smoothing out.

Paul was no exception and even John the beloved, read this bit from EGW,

"John was the disciple whom Jesus loved, because he was believing and trustful, and loved his Master with devotion. His love for Christ was characterized by simplicity and ardor. There are many who think that this love for Christ was something natural to the character of John, and the disciple is frequently represented by the artist as of a soft, languid, feminine appearance, but such representations are incorrect. John and his brother were called the "sons of thunder." John was a man of decided character, but he had learned lessons from the great Teacher. He had defects of character, and any slight shown to Jesus aroused his indignation and combativeness. His love for Christ was the love of a soul saved through the merits of Jesus; but with this love there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome. At one time he and his brother claimed the right to the highest position in the kingdom of heaven, and at another he forbade a man to cast out devils and heal diseases because he followed not with the disciples. At another time when he saw his Lord slighted by the Samaritans he wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume them. But Christ rebuked him, saying, "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." {ST, April 20, 1891 par. 1}

The men whom Jesus chose were men willing to be pruned and hued and smoothed out, most are not. Man is naturally a stiff necked creature.

When He ordains them then His Spirit is the guide as to the preaching and teaching and so then none are led astry by those truly ordained of Him. He knows his men and they are not ordained if it is seen they will fall away. Not so if it is an ordination of men.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[o2bwise]

Hi Gustave,

Quote:

or that to happen Paul would have had to YEARN or DESIRE to have buggerite sex with a man or boy...

...Are you suggesting that Christ yearned or longed to do ANYTHING against the Will of God?

...In the area of SIN?

James 1:14-15

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

So long as desire does not conceive. I do not think it is sin for the impulse (to do anything bad) to reach the mind.

I think it is sin if the person harbors that impulse, rather than nipping it in the bud by repulsing it. I think this is what is meant by desire conceiving.

Just to let you know, you carry zero weight with me by use of characterizing things to be heretical.

Tony

[Guest]

Most scholars, that are not of the "new age" variety, believe that the thorn was his poor eyesight.

[debbym]

Quote:

Until God comes into a man and hues and prunes and works on the soul temple all men are rough and needing smoothing out.

Paul was no exception and even John the beloved, read this bit from EGW,

Paul was a murderous persecutor of the vulnerable gentle followers of Jesus, and somehow this sin is a much better sin for Paul to have been involved in then possibly being gay? That speaks of our biases and judgmental attitudes towards different kinds of sin. God sees it differently then we can i am sure.

Whatever the sum of Paul's weaknesses of his flesh he lived by the power of the Resurrection, and he died to self by the power of the death of Christ daily. Praise God we all can do this too.

[Gibs]

Is there a difference in the size of sin? Just one unconfessed unforgiven sin will ban one from His Kingdom.

His Spirit brings them all to us and usually not all at once, many of us would be overwhelmed if so. You would need a real good pad for the knees as many like me would be there a long time.

Paul had to move over a bit as I needed to sit on that bench, chief of sinners! I think there is a lot of us Chiefs!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[o2bwise]

Hi Deb,

Quote:

Paul was a murderous persecutor of the vulnerable gentle followers of Jesus, and somehow this sin is a much better sin for Paul to have been involved in then possibly being gay? That speaks of our biases and judgmental attitudes towards different kinds of sin. God sees it differently then we can i am sure.

AMEN!!!!

I know someone who once said (and the language is lacking in etiquette):

"You learn how to give a good bl-w j-b when you have a father like I had."

I had a bad feeling because I thought I knew what he was saying, but I asked him to be sure.

He was continually raped by his father from 3-9 years old, but if he did the above, he could sometimes avoid being raped by his father.

This man has homosexual compulsions and I for one suggest that no one except God has any right to judge him. I don't think any of us have a clue as to the underlying source of his compulsions.

[sARCASM]

How it would be were this man to see some of the posts here. Buggerites. Gayism. Insisting that the desire alone is especially worthy of castigation.

[/sARCASM]

I think Scripture's reference to homosexuality in an apocalyptic sense is revealing, but not in any way referred to here.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

Hi Gustave,

Quote:

or that to happen Paul would have had to YEARN or DESIRE to have buggerite sex with a man or boy...

...Are you suggesting that Christ yearned or longed to do ANYTHING against the Will of God?

...In the area of SIN?

James 1:14-15

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

So long as desire does not conceive. I do not think it is sin for the impulse (to do anything bad) to reach the mind.

I think it is sin if the person harbors that impulse, rather than nipping it in the bud by repulsing it. I think this is what is meant by desire conceiving.

Just to let you know, you carry zero weight with me by use of characterizing things to be heretical.

Tony

It's just sin that's alive inside of you waiting to be born....

...Your yearning or lust for a thing is what makes the difference between.

...You being tempted by YOU - or being tempted by

James 1,14

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

As in the sin COMES OUT....

...This is no different than a birth of a child.

...Whereas the prot kingdom believes if the Baby is still in the womb.

..."it's" ONLY a fetus!

It's a real baby, it just hasn't been born yet.

COl 3

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Is coveting a sin?

[Gustave]

Quote:

Until God comes into a man and hues and prunes and works on the soul temple all men are rough and needing smoothing out.

Paul was no exception and even John the beloved, read this bit from EGW,

Paul was a murderous persecutor of the vulnerable gentle followers of Jesus, and somehow this sin is a much better sin for Paul to have been involved in then possibly being gay? That speaks of our biases and judgmental attitudes towards different kinds of sin. God sees it differently then we can i am sure.

Whatever the sum of Paul's weaknesses of his flesh he lived by the power of the Resurrection, and he died to self by the power of the death of Christ daily. Praise God we all can do this too.

It's ALL sin debbym and at the judgment seat someone who covets isn't in any better shape than a queer buggerite...

...I've said this multiple times.

When is the last time you've watched a parade that "celebrated" stealing?

...Society is collapsing before our very eyes here.

...God loves gays as much as anyone else but we do a disservice to gays when we fop out on telling it like it is.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

It's ALL sin debbym and at the judgment seat someone who covets isn't in any better shape than a queer buggerite...

This language is quite offensive to me. We censor words like p!ss and sh!t which are simply unacceptable words for bodily functions. Yet we can use the most offensive and judgemental terms for people who aren't "normal" like we are; and get away with it.

For the record, this isn't aimed at you, Gustave. It's aimed at any who would heap judgement, condemnation, and guilt on any person who they deem as less "good" than themselves. Do you know haw many people struggle with this temptation? Do you know how difficult many of their lives are already without the "saints" cursing them? That's the devil's job. Our job as ambassadors for Christ is the show people that they are children of the King of the universe; and our destiny is to represent our Family. Can we please restrice our terminology for people attracted to the same gender as "gays", "lesbians"' anod/or homosexuals?

[o2bwise]

Hi Gustave,

Quote:

Gustave:

It's just sin that's alive inside of you waiting to be born....

...Your yearning or lust for a thing is what makes the difference between.

...You being tempted by YOU - or being tempted by

Well, here we seem to be getting into areas of theology where we likely see things differently and our differences may be like rivers flowing in quite different directions.

Just sin that's alive inside of you waiting to be born....

One river of thought may require The Immaculate Conception, for example, needing Jesus to not be one like us in a certain fundamental way.

At this point, I think it is important to differentiate the word SIN as it is sometimes used.

1. Sin is something that exists in the mind of someone, specifically having much to say about character.

2. Sin is something that exists in the flesh of someone, specifically having much to say about PULLS it exerts on the mind.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me you conflated #1 and #2 and in your conflation, you must deny Jesus was "made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

Hi Gustave,

Well, here we seem to be getting into areas of theology where we likely see things differently and our differences may be like rivers flowing in quite different directions.

One river of thought may require The Immaculate Conception, for example, needing Jesus to not be one like us in a certain fundamental way.

[Gustave]

Quote:

It's ALL sin debbym and at the judgment seat someone who covets isn't in any better shape than a queer buggerite...

This language is quite offensive to me. We censor words like p!ss and sh!t which are simply unacceptable words for bodily functions. Yet we can use the most offensive and judgemental terms for people who aren't "normal" like we are; and get away with it.

For the record, this isn't aimed at you, Gustave. It's aimed at any who would heap judgement, condemnation, and guilt on any person who they deem as less "good" than themselves. Do you know haw many people struggle with this temptation? Do you know how difficult many of their lives are already without the "saints" cursing them? That's the devil's job. Our job as ambassadors for Christ is the show people that they are children of the King of the universe; and our destiny is to represent our Family. Can we please restrice our terminology for people attracted to the same gender as "gays", "lesbians"' anod/or homosexuals?

I'm not politically correct JoeMo & I don't pour alien new definitions into established words....

...I appreciate you didn't direct this at me and hope you can see where I'm coming from.

...I think PC is one of the biggest evils the world faces now.

[o2bwise]

Gustave,

I believe the flesh is a source of pulls and Jesus took that flesh so that He could serve as an example of perfect holiness within the burden of sinful flesh.

Tony