Lessons on Faith by Jones and Waggoner- Reading club only

[joeb]

Quote:

Do you not see that righteousness by faith is just as plain and simple as the asking God for forgiveness of sin? Indeed, it is just that.

Does that sound like a struggle to you? P 25

Actually, it is, but not in the way most people see sanctification as a struggle. The struggle is in the surrendering of self as sanctification keeps cutting closer and closer to core of self. The closer to home things get the more prayer and reliance upon God is required to surrender self, at least that's the way it is for me.

[joeb]

Quote:

The trouble is that people in general have a faulty conception of faith. They imagine that it is mere assent and that it is only a passive thing to which active works must be added. But faith is active and it is not only the most substantial thing but the only real foundation. The law is the righteousness of God (Isa. 51:6, 7), for which we are

commanded to seek (Matt. 6:33), but it cannot be kept except by faith, for the only righteousness which will stand in the Judgment is "that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Phil. 3:9. Lessons on Faith pp. 43,44

I like how this points out the difference between faith and assent to a belief. This is a vital truth to those who want to be like Jesus.

[joeb]

It's too long to quote(two pages), so I'll only reference the entire article titled "Christ the End of the Law". This article is a great explanation of Romans 10:4 where Paul says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe. That text is used very often to justify the belief that the law just doesn't have much to do with the Christian and his/her behavior. Waggoner does a masterful job of showing how that just isn't true.

[JoeMo]

I haven't been reading the book. Maybe I should, on second thought. Every post I read is such a blessing!

[JoeMo]

Just downloaded it - starting to read... Thanks, joeb for the link.

[JoeMo]

Sorry to go backwards, but on p.2, Hebrews 11:5-6 is quoted. It got me thinking - when we live solely to please God without faith (i.e., without trusting that Jesus is who He says He is and is doing in us what He promised) how can we ever be confident we are "good enough. The only way to live is trusting in Jesus' grace and mercy. Without that trust, we will never be "good enough".

[Gail]

Yes- it is such an easy thing in principle but much harder to accomplish in practise because we naturally want to weave something in from our own doing. It is not fair to want something and just take it. But as my aunt taught me long ago, it is being gracious to accept a gift happily. It gives the giver joy for you to accept the gift.

[Gail]

Happy to see you here, JoeMo and Jackson.

[Ted Oplinger]

Sorry to go backwards.....

JoeMo, we can go backwards and forwards through this book repeatedly and it would not bother me at all.

We probably need to anyway, because there is just that much to digest in it.

Blessings!

[Gail]

Amen to that! Bring it on!

[joeb]

Both Jones and Waggoner most surely brought faith back into the forefront of the Christian experience, which is where it should be. But Mrs White had to caution Jones for going too far in his presentations.

PORTION OF A LETTER TO A. T. JONES, 4/9, 1893, LtR 44, PUBLISHED IN SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK ONE, PP. 377-379.

"In my dream you were presenting the subject of faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. You repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, that there were no conditions. The matter was presented in that light that I knew minds would be confused and would not receive the correct impression in reference to faith and works, and I decided to write to you. You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works.....

{FW 111.1}

The young man came to Jesus with the question, "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" (Mark 10:17). And Christ saith unto him, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." He said unto Him, "Which?" Jesus quoted several, and the young man said unto Him, "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" Jesus said unto him, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow Me." Here are conditions, and the Bible is full of conditions. "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions" (Matthew 19:17, 20, 21, 22). {FW 112.1}

I've been reading this material pretty carefully because I know about Ellen White's caution to A.T. Jones. So far, when everything is taken within context, I've haven't seen that happen here.

We have to guard against the errors found on both sides of the same coin. One is think no surrender of self is needed for our justification. The other is to think that we must somehow earn our justification by being good enough for God to justify us.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

One is think no surrender of self is needed for our justification.

Hi joeb,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here; but are you suggesting that we have personal control over our justification? Many scripture verses (as well as Jones and Waggoner)claim that it is God who justifies. (See Romans 4:5, Romans 5:16,Romans 8:33; 1 Cor. 6:11 for a start). We are ALL reconciled to God, being justified by Christ's death and resurrection.

That being said, we do have one little thing to do: accept that justification and accept/trust that God will do for us what we can't do for ourselves. It's part of that "spiritual humility" I was talking about on another thread - understanding our limited role in the scheme of things vs. God's unlimited role.

[joeb]

Quote:

One is think no surrender of self is needed for our justification.

Hi joeb,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here; but are you suggesting that we have personal control over our justification? Many scripture verses (as well as Jones and Waggoner)claim that it is God who justifies. (See Romans 4:5, Romans 5:16,Romans 8:33; 1 Cor. 6:11 for a start). We are ALL reconciled to God, being justified by Christ's death and resurrection.

That being said, we do have one little thing to do: accept that justification and accept/trust that God will do for us what we can't do for ourselves. It's part of that "spiritual humility" I was talking about on another thread - understanding our limited role in the scheme of things vs. God's unlimited role.

JoeMo,

What is justification? It is giving up on our own goodness and accepting God's goodness. How is this done? By giving up on ourselves. By saying, OK, God, I'm willing to surrender myself to you and allow you to make me righteous. If we don't we are not made right with God for we are still desiring to make ourselves good enough. When we're in that state--self-righteous--we are not justified before God for God cannot do anything for us unless we give Him permission.

The other way to look at this is that when we are self-righteous we have faith in ourselves, not in God. And since justification is by faith, well, God cannot justifiy us.

[Gail]

I've been reading this material pretty carefully because I know about Ellen White's caution to A.T. Jones. So far, when everything is taken within context, I've haven't seen that happen here.

We have to guard against the errors found on both sides of the same coin. One is think no surrender of self is needed for our justification. The other is to think that we must somehow earn our justification by being good enough for God to justify us.

Ditto for me. I think we can keep a balanced head about us. Here's hoping!

[joeb]

I really like the following description of what "a Christian life" is, and what the phrase means. This is found on page 48.

Quote:

Christ, the Light of the world, dwelling in the hearts of His followers, constitutes them the light of the world. Their light comes not from themselves but from Christ, who dwells in them. Their life is not from themselves, but it is the life of Christ manifest in their mortal flesh. See 2 Cor. 4:11. This is what it is to live "a Christian life."

[joeb]

By the way, JoeMo,

I'm glad to see you participating on this thread. I think you'll just keep on liking it better the farther you get into the book.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

since justification is by faith, well, God cannot justifiy us.

I feel like the scripture references say just the opposite. Our acceptance of that justification comes by faith. Thinking that we can do anything to make God love us more or less than He already does is nothing but a vain illusion. You said our justification and good works the fruit of our faith. I'll say it another way - they are the RESULT of our faith. As Jones and Waggoner said (I'm paraphrasing - I can't put the book on my work computer)our obedience and our good works are the mysterious work of the Holy Spirit - not of ourselves lest we should boast.

Quote:

By the way, JoeMo, I'm glad to see you participating on this thread.

I'm glad I'm here, too, Joe. Kudos go out to Gail for inviting me; and to you for providing the link. So far it's the best SDA book I've read in a long time.

[LifeHiscost]

Reading Club only

[Gail]

LifeHisCost, if you are wanting to read along with us, you are welcome to. That is the only stipulation of this particular thread.

[joeb]

Quote:

since justification is by faith, well, God cannot justifiy us.

I feel like the scripture references say just the opposite. Our acceptance of that justification comes by faith. Thinking that we can do anything to make God love us more or less than He already does is nothing but a vain illusion. You said our justification and good works the fruit of our faith. I'll say it another way - they are the RESULT of our faith. As Jones and Waggoner said (I'm paraphrasing - I can't put the book on my work computer)our obedience and our good works are the mysterious work of the Holy Spirit - not of ourselves lest we should boast.

[joeb]

Reading Club only

As Gail said, if you can, and choose to, read the book, you're a part of the "club".

I think this is the only club I've been a part of since I was last a Pathfinder back in the early 60's.

[Gail]

And there is no real book club, I just used the term that best describes the type of discussion.

So again, one must be either currently reading the book, or has read the book, to participate. The comments must be connected to the material in the book.

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

One is think no surrender of self is needed for our justification.

Hi joeb,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here; but are you suggesting that we have personal control over our justification? Many scripture verses (as well as Jones and Waggoner)claim that it is God who justifies. (See Romans 4:5, Romans 5:16,Romans 8:33; 1 Cor. 6:11 for a start). We are ALL reconciled to God, being justified by Christ's death and resurrection.

That being said, we do have one little thing to do: accept that justification and accept/trust that God will do for us what we can't do for ourselves. It's part of that "spiritual humility" I was talking about on another thread - understanding our limited role in the scheme of things vs. God's unlimited role.

This point is one focal point of the whole 1888 Message on righteousness by faith - how it differs from every human definition of it. Allow me to use this as a jumping off point....

The word "justify" comes from the Latin words "justis" (meaning "righteous"), and "fy" (meaning "to make"). Justification is literally the act of "making righteous".

Even from my first years as an Adventist, I heard within the church the same defining of justification by faith as I had seen in Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian teachings on it - God justifies us as we believe the Gospel. Justification is something belonging only to believers, and that done when there is a good works decision involved. Essentially, the mental assent to being made righteous, whereas before that choice, one was unrighteous.

Catholics take it solely into works, and say God does not justify the ungodly, but saints after a life of good works and the proper rites.

What A.T. Jones presented was the hidden gem that God has already justified all of humanity, ungodly as it all is, prior to any effort of choosing or belief. That is the issue of Romans 5 - God doesn't justify the righteous. He justifies the ungodly - and this justification is past tense - and accomplished feat.

This is what makes this teaching so confrontational - it flies in the face of what man's established theologies have always taught us. It contradicts human wisdom in so many ways.

For the "good works" standards keepers, it means the "low-lifes" on the street are as equally justified before God as those who have led virtuous lives in the SDA church. It takes away from man the control of who "is" and who "isn't", because this message states God has declared all "are". These two points - control and pride - reject the 1888 Message as inimical to their religious experience...and why our church rejected it in Minneapolis (but later said we REALLY did accept it...or something).

In Christ, all humanity stands justified before God. That justification comes because God pronounces it so due to Christ's work as our New Adam. We, as individuals, now have a choice - depend upon God's word that this is so, despite our ungodliness so evident before us, or reject it.

Blessings,

[debbym]

Quote:

For the "good works" standards keepers, it means the "low-lifes" on the street are as equally justified before God as those who have led virtuous lives in the SDA church. It takes away from man the control of who "is" and who "isn't", because this message states God has declared all "are". These two points - control and pride - reject the 1888 Message as inimical to their religious experience...and why our church rejected it in Minneapolis (but later said we REALLY did accept it...or something).

so we did not want to think that everyone was equally loved, equally died for, equally in the good grace of God?

that only those who loved God back were loved?

i had it stuck in my mind that justified meant made right with God. Everyone has an equal standing before God of being loved, and of complete provision that has been made for every person for all their needs.

all are equally loved, and because we are all so loved, eternal salvation and forgiveness is prepared and offered to all, but unless it is received, we do not experience the blessing.

Christ did this for all while we were yet sinners.

it is by our will that we accept or reject what God has made available to everyone.

everyone is indeed born in the good grace of God, this is absolutely true.

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

For the "good works" standards keepers, it means the "low-lifes" on the street are as equally justified before God as those who have led virtuous lives in the SDA church. It takes away from man the control of who "is" and who "isn't", because this message states God has declared all "are". These two points - control and pride - reject the 1888 Message as inimical to their religious experience...and why our church rejected it in Minneapolis (but later said we REALLY did accept it...or something).

so we did not want to think that everyone was equally loved, equally died for, equally in the good grace of God?

that only those who loved God back were loved?

i had it stuck in my mind that justified meant made right with God. Everyone has an equal standing before God of being loved, and of complete provision that has been made for every person for all their needs.

all are equally loved, and because we are all so loved, eternal salvation and forgiveness is prepared and offered to all, but unless it is received, we do not experience the blessing.

Christ did this for all while we were yet sinners.

it is by our will that we accept or reject what God has made available to everyone.

everyone is indeed born in the good grace of God, this is absolutely true.

This is the very toughest part of reading the book this thread is discussing.

Somewhere along the way, "we" have to take ownership of what others in the church have done in the past - much like Daniel included himself in the ownership of Israel's and Judah's sins that resulted in the Babylonian exile (Daniel 9:4-18). So when I say "we" and "our"in respect to what happened in the message of faith and grace outlined in this book, I am doing just that.

Indeed, it is one of the fruits seen by this message: humbling one's self to include one's self with the fallen, the sinful, and the ungodly, so that we may participate in making intercession for them as well as for ourselves. Daniel's prayer words in verse 18 implies to me that what A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner were presenting was not new light, but old light recaptured from what Paul learned in the Prophets of old.

Food for thought...