Lessons on Faith by Jones and Waggoner- Reading club only

[Gail]

I think you guys are closer than what the words are trying to say...

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

Sorry to see you both feeling the need to disagree. I will, however have the agreement of the Bible - where in Romans 5:1,2;6-9, and 18, it states quite clearly that Christ's death on the cross is the sole basis by which the Father could declare man righteous - to justify man, and that this covers the whole of the human race.

I don't see how you think either Jackson or I disagree with what I bolded.

All we disagreed with was when God accounts as justified. I've never seen anything in the Bible that tells me that without an active faith in God that I can enter into a saving relationship with Him. So, if what you're saying is that all men are placed in a saving relationship with God regardless of whether or not they have an active faith in Him, then I guess we have more in disagreement than I thought.

[Ted Oplinger]

I think you guys are closer than what the words are trying to say...

Astute observation, Gail...we are close in describing what we've observed, but we are much like the 5 blindfolded men trying to describe the elephant they are touching...

Blessings,

[Gail]

Quote:

So when the apostle says that we do not make void the law through faith, he means that faith and disobedience are incompatible. No matter how much the law-breaker professes faith, the fact that he is a law-breaker shows that he has no faith. But the possession of faith is shown by the establishment of the law in the heart, so that the man does not sin against God. Let no one decry faith as of little moment p.44

I think we all accept this; it's self-explanatory but worth repeating.

Faith will work itself out in unity with God, a conformity to a His will and way. I don't know how it does it, but it does.

[debbym]

joeb, i think he is saying that as sinners, all have free access to God, we all stand in a position of favor before God whether we repent and then receive the full blessing of eternal life or not.

we would have no place to stand to even come to a knowledge of God is we were not secure in his love and blessed with life and grace, and being fully given the privilege of coming to him and being heard as we are.

which we could not have if His grace did not cover us and shield us when we are yet sinning sinners.

i wonder is this the gift of justification, that by which we are made right with God even when we are sinners, which gives us access to all his grace and gifts, so we can be completely delivered from the power of sin for eternity?

i understand this does not make light of sin, it just takes away it's power to prevent us as sinners from coming to him for forgiveness and everything we need.

this is a new thought for me, that because sinners are made right with God through Jesus sacrifice, we can then refuse the gift anyway, or embrace it and be healed from the power of sin forever.

[Ted Oplinger]

joeb, i think he is saying that as sinners, all have free access to God, we all stand in a position of favor before God whether we repent and then receive the full blessing of eternal life or not.

we would have no place to stand to even come to a knowledge of God is we were not secure in his love and blessed with life and grace, and being fully given the privilege of coming to him and being heard as we are.

which we could not have if His grace did not cover us and shield us when we are yet sinning sinners.

i wonder is this the gift of justification, that by which we are made right with God even when we are sinners, which gives us access to all his grace and gifts, so we can be completely delivered from the power of sin for eternity?

i understand this does not make light of sin, it just takes away it's power to prevent us as sinners from coming to him for forgiveness and everything we need.

this is a new thought for me, that because sinners are made right with God through Jesus sacrifice, we can then refuse the gift anyway, or embrace it and be healed from the power of sin forever.

That is exactly the thought I am driving at!

Blessings!

[Ted Oplinger]

Having with the issue of being justified by faith aside, A.T.Jones continues...

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Those who are of faith, and those alone, are the just in the earth.

Now faith is entire dependence on the word of God, that word shall accomplish what the word says. "It shall accomplish that which I please," Isaiah 55:11.

To be justified by faith, then is to be justified by the entire dependence upon the word of God. The just are those who are of the word of God. This is how men become just.

Men must not only become just by faith - by dependence upon the word of God - but being just, we must live by faith. The just man lives in precisely the same way, and by precisely the same thing, that he becomes just.

We become just by faith; faith is entire dependence on the word of God. we, being just, must live by precisely the same thing by which we become just; that is, by entire dependence upon the word of God.

And this is exactly what Jesus said: man shall live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." When Jesus said that, it is perfectly plain that he simply said, in other words, Man shall live by faith.

A couple of notes...

Being justified, we have peace with God. You may not have peace with your brother/sister or neighbor, but you have peace with God. When we do not feel that peace, we are to take God at His word His peace is there.

Next, the idea of living by entire dependence upon the word of God is not new light. It was declared in the Old Testament in Deuteronomy 8:3, as God through Moses gave Israel this light to them. It is these very words Christ, as the Son of Man, depended upon to sustain Him through not just His temptations, but His entire life. He met the tempter with these words, and the devil was forced to relent and cede the victory to Jesus.

Jesus offers the same victory, by the very same means, to each and every one of us. Being just, we can now "do justly,...and walk humbly with" our God Micah 6:8.

Food for thought this morning....

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted,

The Bible is clear. There is no forgiveness of sins without repentance. Since our justification involves God's forgiveness of our past sins, it could not have been given to us at the cross.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The reason i said you were doing exactly what Mrs. White warned AT Jones not to do is because He put no conditions on our justification, and neither do you when you say we were justified at the cross.

By using some of Paul's statements as you do, you force Paul to contradict himself., for he says:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

[Note: Why was Jesus raised? “For our justification.” Our justification is connected with his meditorial work in giving us a Godly sorrow and the gift of repentance.

Jesus said

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. .

When our interpretation of scripture contradicts the SOP, it is always wise to pause and look for other Biblical passages which may shed more light on the subject

It is not wise to dismiss Mrs White's writings when they contradict our views. Of course, the Bible is always the final authority, but her writing were given by God to shed light on the scriptures so that the winds of doctrine would blow us off course.

As Jesus succinctly said, "Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

No sense arguing about this, Jackson. DebbyM caught the very gist of what I was communicating above. Read her post carefully. I have not made light of repentance and being forgiven as necessary aspects of the Christian experience. I have, however, placed the horse in front of the cart, so to speak.

Without you being declared just by God beforehand, you could not even come into the presence of God to ask forgiveness without dying. Justification was God's means of removing sin as a prevention for ANYONE to coming to Him for forgiveness and the power to repent.

Justification by faith in God's Word still comes first, as it allowed Adam and Eve to stand before God as abject, unrepentant sinners after coming out from behind the trees, to receive from Him mercy and forgiveness. If justification truly comes after forgiveness and repentance, Adam and Eve would have been slain the moment they came out from behind the trees. Only Jesus, stepping in as their surety, declaring His righteousness theirs, allowed the entire exchange in Genesis 3 to take place.

If this is something you cannot quite accept, then I but humbly ask that my understanding on this not become a stumbling block to you.

Continue reading from the book and receive a blessing.

[Gail]

Again, I'm not seeing the 2 point of views as opposed but different ways of viewing the elephant.

We have gone through this before on the board. When I see this happening I am inclined to think that the Holy Spirit works on a person according to where s/he is at. Of course, that point varies from person to person.

In that sense it's a good thing to hear a person out- "Be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to wrath."

But I'm REALLY enjoying this discussion! There is so much meat in this book!

[joeb]

joeb, i think he is saying that as sinners, all have free access to God, we all stand in a position of favor before God whether we repent and then receive the full blessing of eternal life or not.

[joeb]

I really like the following. It tells us just how our Christian walk should be. And our Christian walk should not be dour, unjoyful, and constantly struggling to do the right thing.

Quote:

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power--the power of sin--that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power, when it reigned? Lessons on Faith p. 54

The question is not, What do we profess?, but Who do we allow to be in control of our life?

This is what I've been coming to experience and understand quite clearly in the last year or so. The reason I struggle in my Christian life is because I have put up so many roadblocks to Christ being in control of my life. When He's in control I don't struggle. I naturally obey Him. When I've put up a roadblock and kept Him out, I can't obey, I can't love.

The "secret" to sanctification is not in struggling to do the right thing until it becomes a habit. It's in putting forth effort to find out where we have kept Jesus out of our lives, and then surrendering all those things. Then Jesus is in control, and we "let this mind" be in us like it was in Christ Jesus.

What does "let" mean in "let this mind"? It means to allow. It doesn't mean struggle to habitualize certain behaviors. It means when we allow Christ's mind to be in us we will naturally behave the way He wants us to.

How do we find out what we have put up to keep Christ out? We spend time in the word of God. We ask God to point out to us those things that are keeping Him from controlling us. We ask Him to guide all our study so that we won't study to confirm our own biases and beliefs, but that we will truly study to learn His will for us. When we find promises in the word of God that show how He wants to change us we claim those promises in our prayers. Why? Because then we can be absolutely sure that we are praying in accordance with God's will for us, and that our prayers will, not might, be answered.

[Gail]

Amen to that!

I found this:

Quote:

"In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness and the darkness apprehended it not." John 1:4, 5 R.V. The marginal rendering, "overcame," gives us the exact meaning of the text and conveys a message of great comfort to the believer. Let us see what it is.

That was found on p.47. The marginal rendering is not in my KJV, but it is there in my NIV. This is a case where a Hort/Westcott version comes in handy, or at least Mr. Waggoner thought so. I'll read further to see what he says about it.

[Gail]

I like this:

Quote:

"God was in Christ." God refuted the falsehoods of Satan, not by loud arguments, but simply by living His life among men so that all might see it. He demonstrated the power of the life of God and the possibility of its being manifested in men.

Can we do like Jesus did? Can we bring others to God without loud arguments? Can we show God simply by living our lives among men so that they might see it?

[Gail]

Serving God with the power of Satan...

I am on p.54,55 where Jones is talking about why it was easy for Christ to serve God, when it's hard for us sometimes to serve Him.

His total dependence was on His Father. As the Father dwelt in Him the works were righteous.

This reminds me of the verse that says that it is God that is in us, working both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

[JoeMo]

I'm so far behind (sigh!). I've had kids and grandkids in the house for 4 days ...

I loved their logic in the second chapter where they explained why it is impossible for God to lie. He speaks the Word and it becomes reality! That means when He says "Your sins are forgiven" or "it is finished", it's not just a promise; it's a reality!

[Gail]

Yes- I had to take some time to ponder that, but it was worth the trouble. My picture of God got a bit bigger!

[Gail]

Don't rush through it, Joe. There is so much to munch on

[Gail]

Pp 56-58: Receive not the grace of God in vain

I like this so much I am going to meditate on 2 Corinthians 6!!! Wonderful stuff!

Here we find a whole checklist on what God's grace will affect in your life. Powerful!

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Gail

So, Jackson, did you get anything good out of the book at all?

Yes, Gail, I did. I appreciated how both Jones and Waggoner brought to view Bible truths that had been little understood. They highlighted simple childlike faith as the key to gaining acceptance with God and that faith had to be centered on the work His son .They emphasized faith as the lifeblood of the Christian experience.I needed that brought to my attention.

it is interesting to note that E.J. Waggoner's father, Joseph Harvey Waggoner, also wrote about justification n 1882, about six years before his son and A.T. Jones spoke at the Minneapolis Conference on the same subject, he had a booklet published titled, "Justification by Faith".

In his booklet, he gives a very cogent explanation of why justification by faith must include not only faith in what Jesus has done for us, but a sincere repentance as well.

Quote:

"The statement that justification by faith is counting one just, not by virtue of his own obedience, but by what another does for him, is strictly correct as far as it goes, but was not offered as giving a full and complete idea of the effects of justification in the gospel. It has been noticed that a guilty person may be guilty still, notwithstanding another may suffer because of his violation of the law. This is and has been the condition of the great majority of those for whom Christ died. Now if a person were set free merely on the ground that the penalty had been executed on a substitute, though the authority and integrity of the law would be vindicated, the Government would have no security against his resuming a course of lawlessness; and the community would have no assurance that he would not again trample upon their rights. It is therefore evident that before a pardon can safely be granted to the transgressor, there must be given some guarantee in regard to his future conduct. To guard all interests; with mercy to unite justice to all parties, we shall need to inquire for a broader definition of justification by faith than that which we have considered. We should then define it as follows:-

It is that change both in man's relations and condition by virtue of which (1) He is counted just as regards his past life, though his life has not been just; (2) The Government and its subjects are guaranteed against future depredations; and (3) God may consistently accept his service as that of a loyal subject.

By this it will be seen that it is necessary, not only to do a work for man but, also, in him, in order to his complete justification. While the act of laying the penalty upon a substitute vindicates the majesty of the law, a change of heart or of disposition, a thorough amendment of life, can only give that guarantee which is demanded for the future. And this is called conversion. Justification by faith embraces all this. With anything less than this we cannot imagine that any one would stand justified before God." Joseph Harvey Waggoner, Justification by Faith, 1882, pgs 16.1- 17.1}

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

This post is no directed at any one person - I am simply using the quote as a launch point for a point which bedeviled on just what divine justice is at the cross.

It is the words in red that I emphasized that I understand where people obtain their defining of justification. Yet, that is precisely where I have the biggest disagreement on the point of just what the substitute means.

The point which causes great consternation in me is that I know of no earthly justice system that allows the innocent to be sacrificed, so that the guilty go free, and calls that justice. Indeed, in the Books of the Law, Israel was proscribed from doing that very thing, and throughout the Psalms, Proverbs, and the Prophets, God condemned this very thing. Suddenly, God's ideas about this change when it comes to redemption?

If God calls it evil for man to do this, upon what grounds should we declare the authority and integrity of the Law vindicated in the courts of heaven for doing just this? I cannot conceive substitutionary as WE define it (as a true He and any other human being are completely separate individuals) to have any true legal footing in the Divine Justice system. The guilty MUST die, and the vindicated MUST live. THAT is what satisfies Divine justice. Just saying all of our sin and guilt was transferred onto Jesus in the effort to make Him sinful just doesn't cut it, because HE just doesn't have any sins to HIS name at all, and we still do. The point in the quote here - "the Government would have no security against his resuming a course of lawlessness; and the community would have no assurance that he would not again trample upon their rights." remains a valid concern. To make certain this concern is met, God has indeed declared, "The soul that sins shall die" Ezekiel 18:4.

In the end, such a swap as we define it still means He is sinless due to His life lived; His suffering for our sins so the guilty go free creates a huge breach of justice, of the kind Israel was strictly forbidden to do: a perversion of justice. This - while it is what the majority of Protestants call "the Gospel" - is in my understanding a legal fantasy which cannot exist in the divine justice system, where justice is perfect, even as God is perfect...

Each of us must still die the death of sin, and not someone else besides. ANYTHING ELSE either leads to the Catholic justification system of works OR they legal fantasy/"celestial bookkeeping" injustice issues the Catholics rightly accused the Reformers all of having - including the early Adventists. Indeed, the legal fantasy/"celestial bookkeeping" theories are precisely the fall-back that allows our church leaders to say they accepted the 1888 message even while EGW vigorously disagrees in her writings.

Can anyone tell me how God has resolved that dilemma without creating the injustice our current understanding of "substitutionary" demands be created, but God's perfect justice cannot create without losing the Great Controversy?

It's an issue that I've never been able to let go of, though I admit to being no legal expert here...

Seeking an answer...

[Gail]

Like so many topics that I have studied in the Bible, once I get into them they just get bigger and bigger.

I think that the "much more" verses in Romans 5 come into play here, Ted:

Quote:

Romans 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

IOW- Paul was also acknowledging that there was more to it than the simple legal status thing involved with grace.

[joeb]

So, basically, you believe in justification by birth. You've taken faith entirely out of the picture. This is the same error the Jews fell into. They beleived because of their birth into the literal family of Abraham they were justified. You just take it a step further, and say just because a person is born they are justified.

Here's what A.T. Jones has to say about this.

Quote:

The Lord wants you to say that what He says is so; that it is so "now," at this moment, and that it is so to you and in you. "A new commandment I write unto you, which thing is

true in him and in you." When the Lord says a thing, it is true, even though nobody in the world ever believes it. It would be true in Him, but not in them. But He wants it to be true in you as well as in Himself. And when you acknowledge that what He says is true to you "now," at this moment, then that thing is true in Him and in you. This is believing God. It

is believing His word. This is having His word abiding in you. And, "If ye abide in me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

Lessons on Faith p. 74

Notice, that when God says something it is true, for those who believe, and only for those who believe. For those who do not believe, it is not true for them.

Thus, Christ's life, death, and resurrection do nothing for those who do not believe/trust in Christ's life, death, and resurrection. God's word also does nothing for those who do not trust it.

As to justification not having anything to do with righteousness. I think Romans 4 answers this assertion very well.

Quote:

Romans 4: 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul uses justified and "counted unto him for righteousness" interchangably in these verses. And, it is only by faith that Abraham was justified/placed in a saving relationship with God. Paul does not say Abraham was justified by being born. Paul does not say Abraham justified all of his life. James gives us the time that Abraham was justified: when he believed God's words so fully that he understood that even if he killed the son of promise God's word would still be fulfilled and Isaac would remain the means of God making him the father of many nations.

[joeb]

Amen to that!

I found this:

Quote:

"In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness and the darkness apprehended it not." John 1:4, 5 R.V. The marginal rendering, "overcame," gives us the exact meaning of the text and conveys a message of great comfort to the believer. Let us see what it is.

That was found on p.47. The marginal rendering is not in my KJV, but it is there in my NIV. This is a case where a Hort/Westcott version comes in handy, or at least Mr. Waggoner thought so. I'll read further to see what he says about it.

[Gail]

Quote:

Actually, the meaning is there in the Greek text used by the KJV, at least according to Strong's. The KJV translators just chose to use another meaning of the word.

Maybe someone should mention this to those on the other thread... This happens with Bible versions.

[joeb]

Quote:

The earth can bring forth vegetation only because of the moisture that comes upon it by the rain or the snow from heaven. Without this,everything would fade and perish. So also is it with the life of man and the word of God. Without the word of God the life of man is as barren of power and of good as is the earth without rain. But only let the word of God fall upon the heart as the showers upon the earth; then the life will be fresh and beautiful in the joy and peace of the Lord, and fruitful with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ.

Notice, too, it is not you who are to do that which he pleases; but, "It shall accomplish that which I please," You are not to read or hear the word of God, and say, I must do that, I will do that. You are to open the heart to that word, that it may accomplish the will of God in you. It is not you who are to do it, but it. "It", the word of God itself, is to do it, and you are to let it. "Let the word of Christ dwell in you."

Lessons on Faith p. 70

Is this not a beautiful picture of sanctification? It's the word that is to sanctify us. We are not to sanctify ourselves. This is why Ellen White's statement about when we know God as it is our privilege to know Him that our lives will ones of continual obedience is so true. It's because when we get to know God that well His word will be dwelling within us and will change us into His image, for that is what the word of God does. It recreates us back into God's image.

Doesn't this make very plain how faulty our views of sanctification have been to you? It certainly does to me.

All I can say is that since I have come to really understand this concept and really began to believe that God's word is what sanctifies me, not my attempts at behavior modification "while asking for God's help", that my heart has really begun to change significantly. God's promises are true. His word does recreate us.

The other thing I've come to understand is that behavior modification "while asking for God's help" is actually a roadblock to real sanctification because in doing this we are actually putting self in God's way. We're trying to tell God what needs to be changed and why, rather than allowing Him to change us according to His knowledge and desire for us.

We don't have a clue as to what the condition of our hearts really is, and how to go about changing them for we, like the leopard, cannot change our spots. We who are used to doing evil cannot understand what changes our hearts really need.

[Ted Oplinger]

So, basically, you believe in justification by birth. You've taken faith entirely out of the picture. This is the same error the Jews fell into. They believed because of their birth into the literal family of Abraham they were justified. You just take it a step further, and say just because a person is born they are justified.

Really, JoeB? That's a real stretch of an argument to make. That is such a straw fallacy I am indeed amazed - and saddened - to see it under your name. I am indeed very sorry to have even brought up the forensic aspect of justification. Your posting reveals a very limited understanding of what justification fully takes in, and reflects either a lack of understanding, or a misunderstanding, as to how A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner fully developed their concept of what justification by faith takes into itself. Suffice it to say you are so far off the mark in your assessment of my understanding, as to be insulting.

I will repeat to you, JoeB, the same thing I said to Jackson: if you cannot grasp the gist of the argument as it is born of faith, let it go. Go back to reading the book, and do not set up stumbling blocks for yourself over what you think I meant or understand by what I wrote concerning Romans 5 and 2 Corinthians 5. I would sooner readers of this thread read the book and get what blessings they can, than to see this thread get sidetracked and derailed.

Again, my apologies.