Lessons on Faith by Jones and Waggoner- Reading club only

[joeb]

Yes, they both left the church eventually, but that doesn't negate the powerful truths they had whilst in it.

Gerry, we are reviewing the book, Lessons on Faith, and you are welcome to join the discussion; the only stipulation being that you must either be currently reading the book or having read it.

I obviously agree with your post, but I just had to respond to say I love your use of whilst. That is just such a cool word.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Dead formalism- around page 60->

What do you think when a person suddenly declares that s/he doesn't really believe? Wouldn't admitting something honestly be better in God's eyes than the dead formalism that Jones talks about in these two chapter?

Fake it till you make it

Belief is such a fragile thing. If I declared I didn't believe, then I would create my own unbelief and then my unbelief seems real to me and, then, I become sure that I don't believe, etc. etc. etc.

It is much better, I think, for a person to say, "I believe, help my unbelief."

Perhaps it is similar to a declared love for someone. Early on in a relationship, some of us have found it difficult to express love as a reality. Later on, an expression of love seems to build on itself. That is why if a person is in a marriage it is quite disastrous to tell a friend of the opposite sex (not one's wife) that there exist feelings of intimate love for them.

Love, belief, etc. build on the expression of same.

The solution for dead formalism is to seek the LORD while He may be found... (IMO)

[joeb]

Quote:

But thanks be to God, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." All the weight of the curse came upon Him, for "the Lord hath laid on him

the iniquity of us all." He was made "to be sin for us, who knew no sin." And whosoever received Him, receives freedom from all sin and freedom from the curse because free from all sin.

So entirely did Christ bear all the curse, that, whereas, when man sinned, the curse came upon the ground, and brought forth thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17, 18), the Lord Jesus, in redeeming all things from the curse, wore the crown of thorns and so redeemed both man and the earth from the curse. Bless His name. The work is done. "He hath redeemed us from the curse." Thank the Lord. He was made a curse for us, because He did hang upon the tree. Lessons on Faith pp. 81, 82

He redeemed us. He paid the price for us. He, as our ga'al, could ga'al us.

Quote:

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan’s deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world’s dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, “with healing in His wings.” Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

Who only could redeem us? One who knew the height and depth of God's love, and who was related to us, was our ga'al. Here is the legal justification for God being able to justify(declare as righteous and make righteous) those who believe on Jesus Christ.

He paid our price. He bought us back. He paid our debt. In Himself He did it all. We are just the beneficiaries of this when we act upon His actions by faith. Only by faith in Christ is anyone able to access the benefits of His sacrifice. There is no other way.

[joeb]

jackson,

Very good post. We are agreed.

[Ted Oplinger]

Jackson,

All I asked was for the point where you believe Wieland and Short left the path of truth with regard to how they interpreted Jones and Waggoner's message. With your last reply, it does appear like you have a disagreement with the very message Jones and Waggoner brought to the church from God, and not just what the 1888 Message Committee took that message to mean. At the least, the case you chose to reply with makes that appearance.

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

Bible makes absolutely no distinction between "saving faith" and "intellectual faith". It sets forth God's definition of faith, and concludes all other thought processes we call "faith" to be knowledge and wisdom of this earth, which can only lead to trembling concerning what Christ is doing to wrap up the issues of sin and faith.

Intellectual or dead faith

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Saving faith

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

[Gail]

Just to interject here...

I like how Jones lays out the difference between living by the flesh and living by the Spirit on p.85-87

We don't talk about that enough, IMO. As long as we have the Spirit working in us, we will have the enmity within us between the two. But if we yield to the Spirit we will not be subject to the fleshly lusts. They won't go away, but they won't be our hard taskmaster. Or interests will be elsewhere.

[Gail]

P. 89- this is how the Spirit works in you:

Quote:

The Spirit of God, which, in His fullness, is freely given to every believer, lusteth against the flesh, so that in Him who is led by the Spirit of God the flesh cannot do the things that it would. In such the Spirit of God rules, and causes to appear in the life "the fruit of the Spirit," instead of "the works of the flesh."

[Gail]

And the paragraph after:

Quote:

And though it be true "that they which do such things" as are described in the list of the works of the flesh, "shall not inherit the kingdom of God," yet in the gift of the Holy Spirit, through the grace of Christ, God has made full provision by which every soul, in spite of all the passions, lusts, desires, and inclinations of the flesh, can "inherit the kingdom of God."

[Gail]

P. 90- beautiful!

Quote:

And thus, "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted." Heb. 2:14-18.

[Ted Oplinger]

Please Ted, go back and read your previous post. You asked me many questions and I tried to answer all of them.

[Ted Oplinger]

[quote name="A.T. Jones, Lessons on Faith, p. 105"]There can be no question whatever that all the world are held up, and held in their places, by the Lord. But it is not only all the worlds, it is "all things" that held up and held in place by the Lord. And it is as true of the Christian as it is for any star of the firmament or any world on high. Nor can there be any question that the stars and the worlds are held up and held in their courses by the word of the Lord. And no less than this can there be any question that the Christian is held up and held in his right course by the word of the Lord.

This is to believed and depended upon by everyone who professes the name of Christ. You and I can no more hold ourselves up and in the right way than can the sun or the earth. And as certainly as the worlds are dependent upon his word, so certainly is the Christian to depend upon his word. And when this is so, the Christian is kept in the way of the Lord as certainly and as easily as any planet of the universe. It is written, "He is able to keep you from falling." And he says, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness." "Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

O struggling, failing Christian, is not the word which holds up great worlds able also to hold up you? Trust that word. Depend implicitly upon it. Rest wholly upon it; and then you will find rest in it.

[Gail]

Amen- and on to Christian perfection (preview of what's coming)

[Ted Oplinger]

Again, Jackson, you do not understand what Ellen cautioned Brother Jones about. It is rather clear to me in that passage she is warning Jones not to blur a line he had previously kept intact and clear - that being it is the Word producing as first works the very confession and repentance you say are conditions for receiving the declaration of righteousness unto and upon all man. Jones had gotten away from that, and began leaving the false impression the Word did not necessarily produce these two points as first works - leading his listeners to believe these were now optional. That was not Jones' position in 1888, nor was it the preaching she had fully and heartily endorsed.

Jones' and Waggoner's position of Biblical justification by the power within God's Word was already well known when she was endorsing it.

As I said, I am simply leaving off this particular discussion, as you have placed yourself in an intractable position. If you want to see "conditions", then by all means, place them there. I simply see what you call "conditions" as the very first sequence of outworkings of the power within God's Word of justification to produce these points in the sinner.

Acts 2:14-36 - God through Peter declares unto the group His Word. Very first outworking of the Word: being cut to the heart (vs. 36 - otherwise known as conviction). Second work produced by the Word: "What shall we do?" - placing themselves under the sovereignty of Lord's Word. Third work produced by the Word upon the sinner: obedience to the the further instruction of the Word God committed to Peter: Repent and be baptized.

Far from being contrary to Scripture and SOP, I am in complete agreement with it, for both Scripture and SOP say these steps are always taken by the truly penitent. As I said before, I see them as the outworkings of God's Word being accepted by faith and trust. The difference between the saved and the lost? The lost never get past the first work produced by the Word of declared righteousness: conviction. Their reaction is not to be cut to the heart, but rather what is seen in Act 7:57. Same Word declared; two completely different reactions by the human heart.

Enslavement is not ended just because one decides that tomorrow, they will no longer be a slave. No, an appeal must be made to a sovereign power the enslaver recognizes ends that enslavement and breaks the slave mentality of the enslaved. Our enslavement to the flesh must necessarily be broken by the power of a higher Sovereign, and kept broken daily; it doesn't come just because we want it or even will it, but rather surrender to the power contained in the Word to do this very work.

That also is a very Biblical concept.

I will be commenting on the further chapters in Lessons on Faith, continuing using the previous illustrations noted by Jones and Waggoner to underscore that believers are kept in obedience by the same power that spoke their righteousness into existence. As it was in Creation, so it is in Redemption.

Be at peace, Jackson.

[joeb]

Just to interject here...

I like how Jones lays out the difference between living by the flesh and living by the Spirit on p.85-87

We don't talk about that enough, IMO. As long as we have the Spirit working in us, we will have the enmity within us between the two. But if we yield to the Spirit we will not be subject to the fleshly lusts. They won't go away, but they won't be our hard taskmaster. Or interests will be elsewhere.

I like what Jones says there too. And I also think it's a subject that is often avoided.

As to what I bolded.... Our flesh will not be our taskmaster, period, when we are walking the Spirit. When we are walking in the Spirit the fruit of the Spirit is what will dominate our lives. Paul makes that pretty plain in several books of Scripture.

I'd like to point out here something that goes right along these lines. It is Philippians 2:1-16.

[joeb]

Gail,

If you liked pages 85-87, you will love the "Christian Perfection" article. I found it to be wonderful.

[Gail]

I did! I wanted to say that it is good because I agree with it, but decided better

[Just*]

Wieland, Short and Ted say all mankind was justified at the cross. The Bible and the SOP say the cross gave mankind a period of probation, but did not justify him/her, for justification is by a faith that leads to a sincere repentance.

"He heard the cry, "It is finished" (John 19:30), announcing that the redemption of the lost race was forever made certain, that heaven was made eternally secure against the accusations, the deceptions, the pretensions, that Satan would instigate".{DA 490.2}

But the atonement for a lost world was to be full, abundant, and complete. Christ's offering was exceedingly abundant to reach every soul that God had created. It could not be restricted so as not to exceed the number who would accept the great Gift. All men are not saved; yet the plan of redemption is not a waste because it does not accomplish all that its liberality has provided for. There must be enough and to spare.  {DA 565.5}

«Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.» Rom 5:18

«To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.» 2 Cor 5:19

«Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:» Rom 3:24