Lessons on Faith by Jones and Waggoner- Reading club only

[Gail]

Hi, Deb! I know that you have read the book. You will be familiar with what is going on here. Thanks for joining in!

I hope that more members will download the book and join in and be blessed :)

[Gail]

What is coming through loud and clear to me is that God is seeking our total trust and dependence on Him.

Even when we have first enjoyed grace there is always that temptation for our self to take some control, to do something to make it happen or make it better. But God wants our entire dependence on Him.

How often do we struggle and pray this or that only to have the whole situation do an about face when we give up and surrender it all? We finally get out of the way, it seems, and then the resolution comes with power.

I am fascinated with this. It is so unlike "us."

[Gail]

So, Jackson, did you get anything good out of the book at all?

[Gail]

What do you think about the comparison to the creationist and the evolutionist?

Quote:

Now are you an evolutionist or are you a creationist? That word speaks to you. You have read it; you profess to believe it. You believe in creation, as against the other evolutionists; now will you believe in creation as against yourself? Will you put yourself upon that platform today where you will allow nothing to come between you and the creative energy of that word--no period of time whatever?

Jesus said to a certain person, "Thy sins are forgiven." How long before it was so? There was no length of time whatever between the word "forgiven" and the thing. That same word, "Thy sins are forgiven," is spoken to you today. Why do you let any time pass between this word, which is spoken to you and the accomplishment of the thing? You said a while ago that anybody who let a minute, or even a second, pass between the speaking of the word of God and the production of the thing is an evolutionist. Very good; that is so. Stick to it. Now I ask you, Why is it that when He speaks forgiveness to you, you let whole days pass before forgiveness gets to you, before it is true in you? You said the other man is an evolutionist. What are you, I want to know? Are you going to stop being evolutionists and become creationists? p 38

Do you trust God's word when it comes to asking for forgiveness of sins? Do you believe it happens when you ask for it or do you put off believing it until it feels like enough time has gone by?

[Gail]

Quote:

In the second chapter of Ephesians, eighth to tenth verses, we read, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I have always liked the term "workmanship" when it comes to describing God's people. It's like God is making you and me into something, some masterpiece. Like the artist He has a vision of what the finished product will be like and all the workings of the master aim toward the final goal.

It is all of God's doing, not ours. I just find that striking.

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHisCost, if you are wanting to read along with us, you are welcome to. That is the only stipulation of this particular thread.

I just downloaded the PDF of the book. Is there a certain page now being followed?

Thanks

God cares!

[Gail]

Awesome!

No, everyone is reading at their own pace. When you get to something you would like to comment on, please quote the passage and give the page number and then after the quote give your comment.

[joeb]

Quote:

For the "good works" standards keepers, it means the "low-lifes" on the street are as equally justified before God as those who have led virtuous lives in the SDA church. It takes away from man the control of who "is" and who "isn't", because this message states God has declared all "are". These two points - control and pride - reject the 1888 Message as inimical to their religious experience...and why our church rejected it in Minneapolis (but later said we REALLY did accept it...or something).

so we did not want to think that everyone was equally loved, equally died for, equally in the good grace of God?

that only those who loved God back were loved?

i had it stuck in my mind that justified meant made right with God. Everyone has an equal standing before God of being loved, and of complete provision that has been made for every person for all their needs.

all are equally loved, and because we are all so loved, eternal salvation and forgiveness is prepared and offered to all, but unless it is received, we do not experience the blessing.

Christ did this for all while we were yet sinners.

it is by our will that we accept or reject what God has made available to everyone.

everyone is indeed born in the good grace of God, this is absolutely true.

I agree, debbym. The offer is to everyone. Everyone is loved. But not all use the faith that God has given to everyone to access the gift. That takes an active choice, an active application of faith God has given to all.

[joeb]

Quote:

In the second chapter of Ephesians, eighth to tenth verses, we read, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I have always liked the term "workmanship" when it comes to describing God's people. It's like God is making you and me into something, some masterpiece. Like the artist He has a vision of what the finished product will be like and all the workings of the master aim toward the final goal.

It is all of God's doing, not ours. I just find that striking.

I would disagree with you only in what I bolded, and it's just a quibble. God is an artist. Look around next time you're in the great outdoors or witness a beautiful sunset, or the next time you see someone whom God is changing from the dregs of humanity into the likeness of His Son. He is creating a masterpiece and the first/original masterpiece He made along these lines is Jesus.

[joeb]

What do you think about the comparison to the creationist and the evolutionist?

Quote:

Now are you an evolutionist or are you a creationist? That word speaks to you. You have read it; you profess to believe it. You believe in creation, as against the other evolutionists; now will you believe in creation as against yourself? Will you put yourself upon that platform today where you will allow nothing to come between you and the creative energy of that word--no period of time whatever?

Jesus said to a certain person, "Thy sins are forgiven." How long before it was so? There was no length of time whatever between the word "forgiven" and the thing. That same word, "Thy sins are forgiven," is spoken to you today. Why do you let any time pass between this word, which is spoken to you and the accomplishment of the thing? You said a while ago that anybody who let a minute, or even a second, pass between the speaking of the word of God and the production of the thing is an evolutionist. Very good; that is so. Stick to it. Now I ask you, Why is it that when He speaks forgiveness to you, you let whole days pass before forgiveness gets to you, before it is true in you? You said the other man is an evolutionist. What are you, I want to know? Are you going to stop being evolutionists and become creationists? p 38

Do you trust God's word when it comes to asking for forgiveness of sins? Do you believe it happens when you ask for it or do you put off believing it until it feels like enough time has gone by?

I think the question is: Do we believe/have_an_active_faith, or are we run by our feelings?

[joeb]

What is coming through loud and clear to me is that God is seeking our total trust and dependence on Him.

Even when we have first enjoyed grace there is always that temptation for our self to take some control, to do something to make it happen or make it better. But God wants our entire dependence on Him.

How often do we struggle and pray this or that only to have the whole situation do an about face when we give up and surrender it all? We finally get out of the way, it seems, and then the resolution comes with power.

I am fascinated with this. It is so unlike "us."

Agreed. Methinks you hit the nail on the head.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

In Christ, all humanity stands justified before God. That justification comes because God pronounces it so due to Christ's work as our New Adam. We, as individuals, now have a choice - depend upon God's word that this is so, despite our ungodliness so evident before us, or reject it.

Ted, that is not correct. Christ's death at the cross justified no one. It made provision for all men to be justified. There is a big difference here , and that is what Mrs. White warned Jones about.

Justification is a gift, but there are conditions to be met before one can receive the gift. Confession and sincere repentance are the conditions, and repentance is defined as a turning away from sin. The other conditions would include a surrender to God and a desire to trust Him implicitly

Paul explained this Godly sorrow for sin::For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." 2 Cor 7:10

You can be sorry because of the consequences of losing at the gambling table, but that is a worldly sorrow. To be sorry for your avarice in wanting to take someone's money without laboring for it is a Godly sorrow.

"Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary.... He looks to the atoning Sacrifice as his only hope, through repentance toward God--because the laws of His government have been broken--and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ as the One who can save and cleanse the sinner from every transgression." { EG White, Our high calling 52.2}

"While God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul while practicing known sin or neglecting known duties. God requires entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul."—Mrs. E. G. White, in R. H., Nov. 4, 1890

I agree, Jackson. You've said this very well.

I would also say that anyone who truly understands this will not look down on his fellow man for he knows without a doubt that anything he has received from God is truly a gift to the undeserving.

[Gail]

I would disagree with you only in what I bolded, and it's just a quibble. God is an artist. Look around next time you're in the great outdoors or witness a beautiful sunset, or the next time you see someone whom God is changing from the dregs of humanity into the likeness of His Son. He is creating a masterpiece and the first/original masterpiece He made along these lines is Jesus.

And- our world is sin-scarred now and it is still beautiful. Think how it would have been freshly spoken into existance.

I do think of God as an artist as well- an artist extraordinaire.

[Gail]

I think the question is: Do we believe/have_an_active_faith, or are we run by our feelings?

If I had to run by feelings, I might be waiting for a long time for anything to happen.

[joeb]

And- our world is sin-scarred now and it is still beautiful. Think how it would have been freshly spoken into existance.

I do think of God as an artist as well- an artist extraordinaire.

I don't think I can even imagine that, for the only paradigm I have to work with is the sin-scarred one. I know it was wonderful beyond compare, but how much, what it looked like, what the environment was like, what the total absence of sin is like, etc... I just cannot fully visualize.

[joeb]

Quote:

Satan, the ruler of the darkness of this world, had done his utmost to deceive men as to the true character of God. He had made the world believe that God was like men--cruel, vindictive and passionate. Even the Jews, the people whom God had chosen to be the bearers of His light to the world, had departed from God and while professedly separate from the heathen, were enveloped in heathen darkness. Then Christ came, and "The people which sat in darkness saw a great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death, to them did light spring up." Matt. 4:16, R.V. His name was Emanuel, God with us. "God was in Christ." God refuted the falsehoods of Satan, not by loud arguments, but simply by living His life among men so that all might see it. He demonstrated the power of the life of God and the possibility of its being manifested in men. Lessons on Faith p. 47

God wants us, like Christ did, to refute the falsehoods of Satan by simply living our lives and showing the truth of who God is. We cannot refute the devil's lies by logic or argument, only by living the light of God.

[joeb]

By the way, the above quote came from an article titled "The Unconquerable Life". I love that title and what it says is possible for us.

[joeb]

Quote:

The living light comes from God in a never-failing stream. The psalmist exclaims: "For with thee is the foundation of life; in thy light shall we see light." Ps. 36:9. "And he

showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." Rev. 22:1. "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst, come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." Rev. 22:17.

What a wonderful, beautiful truth this is. We are without excuse when we live our lives unlike the light, for it comes to us in a never-failing stream.

[Gail]

God wants us, like Christ did, to refute the falsehoods of Satan by simply living our lives and showing the truth of who God is. We cannot refute the devil's lies by logic or argument, only by living the light of God.

I wonder if AT Jones followed this advice... (just thinking)

But I like this

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

In Christ, all humanity stands justified before God. That justification comes because God pronounces it so due to Christ's work as our New Adam. We, as individuals, now have a choice - depend upon God's word that this is so, despite our ungodliness so evident before us, or reject it.

Ted, that is not correct. Christ's death at the cross justified no one. It made provision for all men to be justified. There is a big difference here , and that is what Mrs. White warned Jones about. Justification is a gift, but there are conditions to be met before one can receive the gift.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

By saying, OK, God, I'm willing to surrender myself to you and allow you to make me righteous. If we don't we are not made right with God for we are still desiring to make ourselves good enough. When we're in that state--self-righteous--we are not justified before God

Hey Joe, Watch doin' with that gun in your hand? (I'll bet you never heard that before.)

I think we are actually in agreement; after reading your posts after this one. I'm still not sure, though, cuz in a subsequent post, you agreed with someone else that no one was justified by the cross. I still maintain that we all received justification (or at least had free access to it) at the cross (actually at the resurrection, cuz that's what proved Christ's sacrifice was acceptable to the Father - but that's a story for a different thread). You are correct in the sense that we do have a "work" to do - we have to believe, which means putting aside the pride that says we can help with what Jesus didn't do. Thinking we can earn even the tiniest piece of our salvation is pride. Isn't this one of the points Jones and Waggoner are trying to make?

[joeb]

Quote:

By saying, OK, God, I'm willing to surrender myself to you and allow you to make me righteous. If we don't we are not made right with God for we are still desiring to make ourselves good enough. When we're in that state--self-righteous--we are not justified before God

I think we are actually in agreement; after reading your posts after this one. I'm still not sure, though, cuz in a subsequent post, you agreed with someone else that no one was justified by the cross. I still maintain that we all received justification (or at least had free access to it) at the cross (actually at the resurrection, cuz that's what proved Christ's sacrifice was acceptable to the Father - but that's a story for a different thread). You are correct in the sense that we do have a "work" to do - we have to believe, which means putting aside the pride that says we can help with what Jesus didn't do. Thinking we can earn even the tiniest piece of our salvation is pride. Isn't this one of the points Jones and Waggoner are trying to make?

[joeb]

Quote:

Goodness is not an abstract thing. It is action, and action is found only in living beings. And since God alone is good, only His works are of any account. Only the man who has

God's works is righteous. But since no man can do God's works, it necessarily follows that God must give them to us, if we are saved. This is just what He does for all who believe.

When the Jews in their self-sufficiency asked, "What shall we do that we might work the works of God?" Jesus replied, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28, 29. Faith works. Gal. 5:6; 1 Thess. 1:3. It brings God's works into the believing one, since it beings Christ into the heart (Eph. 3:17), and in Him is all the fulness of God. Col. 2:9. Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday and today and forever" (Heb. 13:8), and therefore God not only was but is in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. So if Christ dwells in the heart by faith, the works of God will be manifest in the life, "for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil. 2:13. Lessons on Faith p. 49

I just really like this book. There is so much in here that identifies real faith, working faith, and it always associates real faith with change of heart, real goodness, and the works that God would have our life to show.

Like I said earlier in this thread. Faith ought to be classified as a verb instead of a noun, as it is all action. There's nothing passive or inactive about it.

This is from the article entitled "Faith".

[Gail]

[joeb]

Quote:

Sorry to see you both feeling the need to disagree. I will, however have the agreement of the Bible - where in Romans 5:1,2;6-9, and 18, it states quite clearly that Christ's death on the cross is the sole basis by which the Father could declare man righteous - to justify man, and that this covers the whole of the human race.

I don't see how you think either Jackson or I disagree with what I bolded.

All we disagreed with was when God accounts as justified. I've never seen anything in the Bible that tells me that without an active faith in God that I can enter into a saving relationship with Him. So, if what you're saying is that all men are placed in a saving relationship with God regardless of whether or not they have an active faith in Him, then I guess we have more in disagreement than I thought.

God gives faith to all men, but not all men use that faith to enter into a saving relationship with Him. Thus, even though Christ made provision for all men to be justified, not all men are justified before God, therefore not all men can be saved.

As to your argument about justified being past tense in Romans, all I can say is, of course it's past tense. Paul is talking to believers so of course he's referring to being justified in the past tense as believers have already been justified. It's not a future event for them.