On-going Debate

[Bird's Eye View]

I've been having an on-going debate with a friend of mine about why the majority of Christians do not see the need to keep the commandments.

I say if the New Testament was so clear on keeping the Sabbath issue, it would be stated clearly here, but it is conspicuously absent.

I'm not trying to convince anyone not to keep the Sabbath if you want to keep it, but aren't the words of Jesus here enough to tell us what is required? According to the New Testament, I'd say it is, and that is where real Christianity begins, with the gospels and not looking back!

From Matthew Ch.19

16 ¶And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the ccommandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 ¶Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

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[rudywoofs (Pam)]

sometimes arguments like this really *do* make me wonder if keeping the Sabbath on Saturday is all that important...

I think what BEV is saying is that while Jesus mentioned specific commandments as being required to keep, He never once mentioned (that I recall) a *requirement* of keeping the Sabbath. Jesus did say that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"...

But, then, Jesus didn't mention the commandment of "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" either... and *that's* rather important...

Nope... the Sabbath is the Sabbath is the Sabbath to me.. and it's important to keep it.. :)

[Bird's Eye View]

This addresses both of John 14:15 and a little bit of Rudy's comment as well.

Jesus says :

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Just speaking from an objective point of view, these two commandments are usually how Christians tend to understand "the law".

Those who go back and read Exodus are likely to come away with thinking the Sabbath is not meant for Gentiles, based on this:

"‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

and this in Deuteronomy: 5:15, “And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.”

So when they read this

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;

They believe this New Covenant does away with the laws given to Moses.

[Bird's Eye View]

This writer sums it up pretty nicely, in my opinion, as to how Christians view the scriptures.

It's not that they want to be "disobedient" or "bow to Rome" or any nonsense like that. They just believe in Jesus being their rest, per the New Covenant!

True Sabbath Rest through Christ (Hebrews 4:9-10)

Written by Juli Camarin on November 23, 2010.

“There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his” ( Hebrews 4:9-10 )

I remember as a teenager the pastor of the church we attended spoke one Sunday about resting on Sunday. The point of his message was to set aside one day a week to rest and focus on God. He cited the example from the Old Testament about keeping the Sabbath. After the service several people came up to me asking me if I still planned to work on Sundays commenting that I shouldn’t because the Bible said to keep the Sabbath holy. I worked a part time job at a local restaurant and worked when I was scheduled, which included Sunday evenings. Although the pastor meant well, he missed the point of Sabbath rest, it is not one day a week set aside to rest from our labors; the Sabbath Rest is Jesus.

In the Old Testament, the Law gave instruction about the Sabbath Rest. The Israelites set aside one day to cease from their labors when everyone around them strived seven days a week. Israel prospered above others because this rest was about trusting in God as their source and not trusting in human labor.

Everything demonstrated in the Old Testament was a type and shadow of what we would have as New Testament believers. They were copies and illustrations of what would be provided in Christ. A shadow is a vague outline resembling what is to come. For instance, my shadow has the shape of me. If I were to come around the corner my shadow would arrive ahead of me. You could see it and understand that a person was coming. You could make out my shape and know certain things about my height, weight and even length of hair. But you wouldn’t be able to fully interrupt what I look like by my shadow; that is not until you see me face to face. The same is true with the Old Testament, the Law was a foreshadowing of what Christ would be and do. It gave guidelines and regulations but these served merely to point us to the savior, the reality has always been found in Him. At that time when they looked they could see certain things about who the savior would be but they did not have a clear picture, just the shadow of what was coming.

As New Testament believers we can look back and fully understand these things and see Jesus woven throughout the entire scriptures. We have the real thing. We have the expressed image of God, everything the Law and prophets spoke about ( Hebrews 1:1-3 ). Since we have the fulfillment of these things, there is no need to live under the shadow of what was coming. The same is true for the Sabbath day, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ” ( Colossians 2:16-17 ). We must look at the Old Testament through the filter of Jesus otherwise we will get bogged down in confusion and never progress into full revelation of who God is and what he has provided in Christ. Instead we will continue living under the very things we have been freed from.

The Sabbath was a symbol of Jesus and now it is a New Testament reality. We can trust in the finished work of Christ and rest continually in this. We don’t have to set aside one day a week to cease striving; our entire lives as believers dwell in this place. When Jesus hung on the cross he said, “it is finished” ( John 19:30 ). He had fulfilled everything in the Law and provided the righteousness of the law to us as a free gift. We do not need to add one thing to it, Jesus provided the way, and by trusting in this provision we rest from trying to do it on our own. This is the true Sabbath rest that God desires for His people. This rest is so much more than most people’s interpretation of the Old Testament scriptures about the Sabbath day. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus and knowing this amazing truth will equip you for a lifestyle of trusting in God and finding constant rest in Christ.

[Gail]

BEV, you are missing something even bigger than that. Not only are the commandments a picture of Jesus, how He would be when He came to earth, the 10 Commandments show His character which doesn't change. He has always been righteous and merciful and always will be.

Just as the other 9 commandments reflect His character, the Sabbath one also does, and will always reflect His character. The same Jesus who will never lie, kill nor nor covet and defer to the Father as He did on earth, has fulfilled (established) all of the 10 Commandments, not just 9 of them. What He blessed and sanctified and blessed at Creation remains.

[Gail]

As to your statement that real Christianity begins in the New Testament, I would recommend studying through the Old Testament. If you look carefully, you will see the Presence of Christ (that Rock was Christ) all through the OT.

There have been books written on seeing Jesus through the whole Bible (I have a couple at home, one is seeing Jesus in the Psalms), Isaiah 53 is an obvious example. As you do this your view of Jesus will expand and you will see a continuity you've never noticed before. This is made even more obvious as you study the sanctuary services.

Seventh-Day Adventists are not the only ones who see it this way, but those from mainstream Christianity are fewer in number because they've been accustomed to focusing on the NT. But they are out there :)

[Bird's Eye View]

As far as I know, the only commandments given to Adam and Eve were to be fruitful and multiply and to not eat the forbidden fruit!

I have not seen scriptural support for it along the lines of "it is written", though I see plenty of inference, but implied understanding won't convince people.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

John 1:17

[Bird's Eye View]

...James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

That proves the difficulty in keeping it to any sense of satisfaction!

But I would say this:

"If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." — Gal. 2:21.

[Gail]

dgrimm, that is the longest post I've ever seen you write! Well done!

[Naomi]

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

but aren't the words of Jesus here enough to tell us what is required?

If I only had the new testament to base my conclusions on, I would still believe in the Seventh Day Sabbath as important to pay heed. Since Jesus is God the Son and the NT recognizes Him as the One who led the people of God through the wilderness experience for 40 years of express instruction about keeping the Seventh Day holy, on pain of death if they didn't, He would have changed the very first word of the 4th commandment if it were important to change.

"...all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."1 Corinthians 10:2-4 NASB

This above in addition to the fact that it's the only commandment that identifies specifically the Authority Figure identifying why it is important to accept His right to tell me what to do. Not to mention all He asks of me is based on His great love, that I suffer as little as possible, even in this world of sin.

"Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

Hebrews 13:20-21 NKJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."Hebrews 13:8 NASB

God cares!

[joeb]

...James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

That proves the difficulty in keeping it to any sense of satisfaction!

But I would say this:

"If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." — Gal. 2:21.

[ClubV12]

Good post Joeb. I recently read a statement by Sister White where she mentioned the old covenant was not replaced by the new one. That we are bound to the old just as the Israelites were.

Context? I'm not sure what that means exactly, I just came across it recently. But it has a ring of truth to it. It's something I will be looking into a little deeper as time goes by. It fits well with another statement about there being much in the old levitcal laws that we would do well to apply today. Whoa, what is that about? Certainly not feasts, circumcision, other things, but there is something there worthy of further study.

Like paying the "poor man" his wages at the end of the day, don't wait, he is a poor man and needs the money. So, I always pay my hired help at the end of the day!

[phkrause]

Exactly joeb. Great post

[Gail]

I wish there was more emphasis on the blessing of accepting Christ's righteousness by faith.

Do you how power-packed that belief is? It is a promise of a change of heart from disobedience to one of loving obedience- and God does it in us! Thinking of that leaves me awe-struck.

It's not something I just repeat with my mouth, for a mere vocal assent doesn't change anything. It means that my heart is being and will be changed- my motives transformed. I just LOVE that! I can't do it with my will, but Christ will do that for me. It is my only hope and it is precious to me.

Every time my heart burns to give to a need or reaches out to pray with a suffering one, that is Jesus changing my natural selfish heart. I KNOW there is a Saviour and He is changing me to be like Him. The thought of a heavenly home is wonderful. These thoughts make my Bible more precious. They make prayer more meaningful. They make God's promises living to me.

I mean, aren't you excited about the prospect of coming into unity with what the 10 Commandments and what that entails? Without Jesus I guess I would want to make one or more of none effect, too. But there is nothing wrong with the 10 Commandments. If everyone obeyed them we would be at peace. But they bring me to my Saviour and His righteousness changes me into a law-abiding citizen rather than leave me in lawlessness. I am not perfect yet (God isn't finished with me yet) but I am thankful for what He has done so far not only at the Cross but in my heart.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I am not perfect yet (God isn't finished with me yet) but I am thankful for what He has done so far not only at the Cross but in my heart.

And the same for the rest of the post.

Amen! And as Ron Halverson was saying whom I was just watching,

Amen and Amen!

God cares!

[joeb]

Gail,

I fully agree with you. That was a great post. To tell the truth I think the best part of our inheritance from God is His nature. Heaven will be good, but to live like Christ did here is something that has no comparison in its beauty.

[scott.t]

This addresses both of John 14:15 and a little bit of Rudy's comment as well.

Jesus says :

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Where are these commandments in the 10 Commandments given to moses? Are there more then 10 comandments? What commandments are we required to keep and what defines a commandment?

Scott

[ClubV12]

In these two Jesus summed up the first four, our love for God and the last six, our love to fellow man. Of the ten the fellow He was speaking to had kept all of them (all ten). What more did he lack, was the question he asked. And no doubt he was also keeping many of the man made Jewish laws as well. Salvation by works! But still, he knew something was missing in his life. Something was still wrong, thats why he was asking Jesus, "What more must I do?".

He was keeping the ten, and more, as a means and way of pleasing God and expecting a reward for his "good works". He did not truly love the law, God or his fellowman. If you follow God because you want some reward for your work, you aren't following God!

You WILL be rewarded, in due time and according to your works, because God is loving and fair, not because you "earned" anything! HE earned it for you. We keep the "ten" because we love God and see the beauty and fairness and kindness in the law. Toward God and toward man.

[Gail]

Jesus says :

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Where are these commandments in the 10 Commandments given to moses? Are there more then 10 comandments? What commandments are we required to keep and what defines a commandment?

Scott

What you quoted here, Scott, is bang on. The 10 Commandments just expand on the great and foremost commandment and the second which is like it. They explain what it looks like to love God with all your heart, strength and mind, plus how to treat others.

These two present not a checklist of good works but they are living principles that are revolutionary as far as human behaviour goes. They teach us to give rather than live for ourselves.

[Bird's Eye View]

I don't know what direction any further responses from me might do for my original point in making this thread. I think it has been covered in my previous posts.

It's not like I'm trying to convince anyone here NOT to keep the Sabbath, but just to bear in mind what is probably the way the majority of Christians see the Sabbath. They see the Sabbath fulfilled in Christ, he becoming their "sabbath rest".

I'm purposely trying to remain objective, but my biases will come through if I continue, and I don't want to insult anyone's faith unintentionally

But for the record, my husband and I are Sabbath-keepers, so it's not anything against the custom.

It's more just a general bias against "religion" itself, but that is not for this thread.

Thanks for reading and for commenting.

[ClubV12]

The fellow asking Jesus, "What more must I do?", was a Sabbath keeper, it wasn't enough, it never will be. While Sabbath will ultimately be the final test for mankind it is only an outward sign of what is in the heart. No doubt many will keep the Sabbath at the same time they willingly honor a National Sunday law. So they won't loose their job, or that Government check, or their house. So they can feed their children. So they can buy and sell. And still keep the Sabbath, just go along with that whole Sunday thing when the time comes, because it would be to hard not to go along.

Not a reflection on you, BEV, just an observation and a decision that some will have to make in due time. What that decision will be is determined in our daily life everyday in the little decisions we make constantly. The decision to follow and honor God, no matter what the cost, in every instance of life. A crisis does not change character, it reveals the character we develop and grow into everyday of our life.

[Gail]

Thanks for the input regarding how mainstream Christianity views the subject; no doubt that could be useful for some.

My reading of the history of how the change came about from Sabbath to Sunday in the early church helped clinch it for me besides just the sense of it within its place in the 10 Commandments. There is no other way to look at it than exchanging a commandment of God with a commandment of men (tradition). Some believers accept that, that the church has authority to do that. The Catholic denomination went even further and removed the commandment about idolatry and added another one to the coveting part and made that their 10 Commandments. To them that is okay. Personally, I can't conscientiously accept that.

[Naomi]

[Gibs]

Jesus spelled it out clear enough,

He said, "on these two HANG ALL THE LAW"

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

ALL the law would be the first four to God with ALL our love

And then ALL of the last six with love of our fellows as our selves.

Then we have some that believe the law was abolished at the cross and so they are thinking as Satan, we are GOOD and need no law! Well has not his good shined out to the value of it?

Don't we know by now that only God is GOOD and so He had better set the rules that are right true and just and are of love. Are they not GOOD?

I answer Yes! To the last letter!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.