On-going Debate

[Gibs]

I wonder though when we reject His Word as the absolute truth and the fountain and foundation of truth if we aren't really rejecting Him.

That is where I would suggest to tread lightly.

However I do want to let you know that you have not lessened my Faith that the Bible is His Holy Word to us for the greatest learning we can obtain.

You may lessen others faith that it is, but of that I choose to stand on the solid Rock.

I really would suggest that we all work to help others to an increased faith in His Holy Word.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

That heathen without a bible? He/she knows basic wrong from right. Dont steal the arrows of your neighbor. Help your enemy if he is hurt deep in the jungle and will die if you don't. Take care of the widows, the hungry. Nature will instruct the heathen on the laws of God, and their ARE laws, and they do need to be kept. If you love God and your fellow man, keeping them (not stealing, killing, lieing, etc.) will come from a spirit of love.

It is Gods law by which all men are eventually judged, it is the standard that will apply in each case. He is mercifull and long suffering but there is a limit to mercy and at some point justice must also be rendered.

[Gibs]

I rather believe though that since we are not heathens or unlearned and can fluently read and write and are privy to His Word, if we haven't been led to it someone should be a missionary and lead him or her to it as the Rock, the Holy Word of God.

This old soldier heartily recommends it to all and above all other writings! For most to delve into more and sort it out using the Word to try all against for truth is more than they can handle.

The Bible is too much for the great majority to get a good understanding of to not be deceived of the enemy. It is a bulwark the heathen and unlearned do not have.

For us who have it and not use it, is a terrible lose.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Indeed, the more light concerning Gods character (the law is simply an expression of His character) the higher the standard we will reach for.

That woman that took in Elijah is a fascinating story to me. She wasn't a Jew, had little knowledge of the true God. Yet God found her faithful to what she did know and rewarded her with the privilige of caring for one of His servants. Can you imagine her astonishment and joy as Elijah began to teach her more about the God they both served?

[Gibs]

There are great true stories but I rather believe very few. This is why the true gospel needs to go out is to bring in the true hearts out there that do need the saving message.

Each one of us who have become His are to be His Witnesses of the Way He has made.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

I wonder though when we reject His Word as the absolute truth and the fountain and foundation of truth if we aren't really rejecting Him.

That is where I would suggest to tread lightly.

However I do want to let you know that you have not lessened my Faith that the Bible is His Holy Word to us for the greatest learning we can obtain.

There's where I might take offense with what you're saying, Gibs.

To think because one would question certain aspects of the Bible equates to rejecting God is a little presumptuous, in my opinion.

I don't want to diminish anyone's beliefs.

That was never my point.

However, speaking for myself, the Creation story is hard for me to take literally. I'm sure all the right symbology is there and there's a lesson imparted by it, but the truth is that not one of us were there, so we must take it ON FAITH that it is as described.

While the Bible's account appeals to millions of people, other cultures have their own interpretations, and I wouldn't presume to tell them they must believe this way or that or be doomed to everlasting destruction!

God may be speaking to them in a way that works for them. They can still revere God and love one another, which is what it boils down to me as being the most important.

As Club said, the true law of God will manifest itself in these things done with a willing heart.

Maybe not the Saturday Sabbath though,..but perhaps something similar, or maybe not, maybe what day someone worships isn't as important as you make it out to be. If someone really truly has to work that day to feed their family, is God going to say "Depart from me, I never knew you"?

[ClubV12]

The KJV versions has some mistakes, thats a fact. We should embrace that reality, not hide it. ALL versions have mistakes of some kind. But heres the thing, the golden thread of truth is sufficiently woven through out where the serious searcher for truth will not get hung up on a relatively minor point or mistake in translation, etc. These mistakes I believe God has allowed as hooks for some to hang their doubts on. They are also often mole hills turned into mountains that lead to confusion for those with preconceived ideas of what they think truth should look like. Comparing scripture to scripture, here a little, there a little, we can find that golden thread of truth and follow it.

Come to the bible with a humble, teachable spirit, put your preconceived ideas aside. Follow the truth, where ever it may lead.

[Gibs]

I prefer that old KJV for the simple reason it streams from the received proven texts and I run the Hebrew and Greek dictionary with it and you can check questionable words and phrases anytime

Many want the newer versions and I will steer clear and a great many will with me. Yes many like other versions as some texts uphold what they have come to believe.

On this each is responsible for what he will receive. The mistakes some will cite of the KJV is their comparison with what I deem corrupt texts.

On any supposed mistakes compare scriptures of the same subject from other prophets.

I'm not from Missouri but show me some.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

BEV,

When ever we make a testimony here or any where we are teaching and some one will heed for sure.

I personally will not in any way make any statement that any writings are to be considered in it's place.

I love His Holy Word and when He tells me it is Truth, I believe as that is what I want.

There is no other written source that has any merit.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Actually, the NIV in many areas is a more accurate translation than the KJV. I don't hold to strongly to any one version, I'm just glad to see people searching the word for themselves! God will lead them into the light if they let Him.

For just pure reading enjoyment I prefer the "Clear Word" bible, but when I am doing serious study my first choice is KJV AND NIV combination.

[Green Cochoa]

Find a mistake in the KJV, and I will find 5 times as many, and more egregious, in the NIV.

The KJV upholds the standards we as Adventists have been founded upon. The NIV would tear many of these standards down with "new theology," the basest of which is that the law has been abolished. I will never recommend that someone reads an NIV, lest I become guilty for having imperiled their soul. It is true that some verses are better rendered in the NIV than in the KJV. The devil likes to mix his most insidious errors with a piece of truth in order that with the truth the errors may also gain acceptance. In the NIV, he has a perfect package. There is a lot of truth, but the errors make the whole poisonous.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[ClubV12]

In my Sabbath School class these kinds of debates can get quite "exciting". I've seen people get up and walk out because someone wanted to read a text from other than the KJV. I don't get caught up in those discussions anymore, let them go. Such people are only a distraction. To many folks pick some item they like and then hammer everyone into submission. One guy just can't let "eggs" go. Others look for every possible mistake in the Sabbath School lesson and make a big deal out of it.

As it concerns Revelation chapters, 4, 5 and some others, the NIV is superior to the KJV. Ellen White herself quotes from versions other than the KJV at times. She, like me, used a couple of different versions, recognizing that each has value. This was well known among our pioneers, they didn't get up and walk out of Church over it or demand that everybody use only this or that version!

I had to chuckle when I recently discovered that even the The New American Bible, Catholic and The Jewish New Testament got Revelation 5:9,10 right, whereas the KJV did not!

Here a little, there a little, best approach.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Bring out those texts you find more accurate and we can discuss them, pro and con..

You can say I'm from Missouri if you want, show me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cricket]

Gibs, you're from Missouri.

[ClubV12]

Bible versions and texts would best be handled in a separate thread.

I spent a few years in Rolla, Mo (the University). My son was born there.

[Gibs]

Thanks, Cricket,

ClubV12 do it, show me!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

Yes, a separate thread about the KJV versus other Bibles might be very interesting. There is some rumor of conspiracy surrounding the KJV,...that King James was a Freemason and that Francis Bacon had a hand in the final editting, even that the KJV was a more "government approved" version compared to the older Geneva Bible.

I saw where the newer KLV has a very questionable symbol on the cover of it. (Gotta pay attention to those things!)

http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

The subject of this thread has probably run it's course for the time being, that being that millions of people around the world find Jesus to be their "sabbath rest", not a given day.

I tend to agree with them, but also find value in keeping the Sabbath.

I don't fault either side, as long as they are sincere in their heart, and that is something only God can determine.

One can think they have everything right but in doing so it might come off a bit prideful, and that in itself could be a sin, so, ...that's all I wanted to say, I guess.

Thank you all for participating in this discussion.

Please feel free to continue if you wish!

[Bird's Eye View]

Sincerity is not good enough for one who has been exposed to God's word. Eve sincerely believed the Serpent,but her sin was in not believing God.

You don't think people could sincerely believe that Jesus "fulfilled the law" by becoming our Sabbath rest, thereby establishing the New Covenant?

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Many believe the Sabbath is a sign for the Israelites.

"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come..."Ex.31:13

Just saying,...I don't see how Christians sincerely putting their faith in Christ could be a bad thing. If they are mistaken somehow, then it may be that the New Testament is not so clear on that commandment being given to Gentiles.

Tell me, when did the Gentiles become "Israelites"?

Or is that not even a valid point?

[Gibs]

BEV,

I got answers for your post but I will wait as I would like you to have some of the views of others here that are knowledgeable Christians. Some should come back.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

I didn't put forth anything that wasn't already suggested at the beginning of this thread Gibs. I was just responding to Jackson's comment.

Otherwise, I felt the thread had run it's course.

Feel free to go ahead with whatever is on your mind.

[ClubV12]

Sincereity and feeling are in no way confirmation of truth. The suicide bomber is deeply sincere and feels he is going to heaven! Come let us reason together.

God has protected His word, conspiracy rumors always abound, they won't stop the truth.

[Bird's Eye View]

Sincereity and feeling are in no way confirmation of truth.

No, I agree. My point was merely that God will judge our hearts, or so I hope, anyway. Otherwise, very sincere, God-loving people who may have been purposely led astray and didn't know any better would have an unfair price to pay, it would seem to me.

[ClubV12]

Thats right BEV, the problem is some people will be sincerely mistaken. Like many of those who sought to kill non Catholics during the Crusades.

What we must gaurd against is become sincere,,,ly mistaken BECAUSE we have rejected some portion of known duty along the way. Moses "forgot" to circumcise his sons on the way to Pharoah. Perhaps he put it off, just for a little while, time goes by, it doesn't bother him as much as it used to. At some point he "sincerely" forgot. The angel stopped him and reminded him because he had neglected a known duty the angel could not protect him from Pharoah. Who would have killed him without that protection. Moses immediately realized his mistake and corrected it on the spot.

Typically it is "pride" of some kind that gets in our way and leads to "sincerely mistaken". There IS room for the truly sincere to be misled by others, God does indeed judge the heart in that respect. He will provide sufficient evidence for us to do what is right, if we stay tuned!

[ClubV12]

In the Adventist Church we have an inspired messenger that most, but not all, accept as the Lords messenger, Ellen White. I certainly accept her as a prophetess, like any prophet before her, a spokesperson for God. As was Paul, Timothy, John the Revelator, Elijah, etc.

Anyway, she says of William Miller, that great "Advent Movement" man that he was sincerely led astray late in his life. She says God laid him to rest to save him from his sincerely mistaken viewpoints! He also watches over his grave and he will be with the Saints.

Being sincerely mistaken carries unavoidable consequences, it is serious thing to get it wrong! Due diligence is certainly required.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In the Adventist Church we have an inspired messenger that most, but not all, accept as the Lords messenger, Ellen White. I certainly accept her as a prophetess, like any prophet before her, a spokesperson for God. As was Paul, Timothy, John the Revelator, Elijah, etc.

Anyway, she says of William Miller, that great "Advent Movement" man that he was sincerely led astray late in his life. She says God laid him to rest to save him from his sincerely mistaken viewpoints! He also watches over his grave and he will be with the Saints.

Being sincerely mistaken carries unavoidable consequences, it is serious thing to get it wrong! Due diligence is certainly required.

a couple of things bother me here....

1) it almost sounds like Ellen White is being considered on par with Paul, Timothy, John, Elijah, etc. -- which, in essence, is saying that her writings are on par with scripture. I think *that* is a dangerous idea...

2) Ellen White did indeed write that angels watch the dust of William Miller. My question is: why would God have angels watch the dust of some dead person? Perhaps Ellen White was writing in some sort of metaphorical sense?