On-going Debate

[Gerr]

Rest in Jesus and you no longer have to celebrate the day that reminds one of it? Rest in Jesus and no longer have to keep the rest of the 10? While many non-Adventists are discovering the importance of the Sabbath, some SDAs are departing from it. Go figure!

If you believe the plain words of God, what is there to debate? Or is the NT the only words of God?

ESV | ýEx 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

[Bird's Eye View]

I probably couldn't answer even half the question you guys could toss my way, but I wonder if anyone would mind helping me see how you define and differentiate between these two scriptures that I mentioned earlier...

1) Deuteronomy: 5:15, “And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.”

vs.

2)“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;

[Gail]

Yes, after the Exodus, God's provision of freedom from slavery in Egypt was added as another reason to keep the Sabbath. The Israelites were taken from slavery and were finally able to enter into the rest of His blessed and sanctified day again. Only they had to be reminded what that exactly meant.

[Bird's Eye View]

Maybe you know the answer to this then Gail,...when was the commandment FIRST given to keep the Sabbath? (And I don't mean just somehow "understood" because "God instituted it in creation".) Anybody know?

The only thing I can find is this:

"For the law was given by Moses,...John 1:17

Also,...what is the new covenant "not" according to the one made "with their fathers"...Heb. 8:9

[Bird's Eye View]

Just a curious FYI, the way the Jews see that Hebrews passage:

This prophet's word refers to the Messianic Age to come (or World to come), in which the eternal Mosaic covenant with Israel will be confirmed. Of this Mosaic covenant between God and Israel the Shabbat is declared to be the sign forever (Exodus 31:13–17).[19] The Tanach describes Shabbat as having the purpose as a "taste" of Olam Haba (the world to come, the Hereafter) following the Messianic Age (the End of Days).[citation needed]

The Jewish view of the mere wording "new covenant" is no more than a renewed national commitment to abide by God's laws. In this view, the word new does not refer to a new commitment that replaces a previous one, but rather to an additional and greater level of commitment.[20]

Because Jews view the Mosaic covenant as applying only to Jews and any New Covenant merely a strengthening of the already existing one, Jews do not see this phrase as relevant in any way to non-Jews. For non-Jews, Judaism advocates the pre-Sinaitic Seven Laws of Noah. "Unlike Christianity, Judaism does not deny salvation to those outside of its fold, for, according to Jewish law, all non-Jews who observe the Noahide laws will participate in salvation and in the rewards of the world to come".[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant

[fccool]

Quote:

ESV | ýEx 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.

...

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

....

13You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesha ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 15If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

By loving other you fulfill the law... because in loving other you love God. Law is for people who are unable to love. People who love one another don't need any law. Law to them is like saying to them "you must breathe".

All of the religion supposed to do one thing - help you love other people more, because you can't love God without loving other people. It's impossible. That's the only way you can love God. So, the entire law is fulfilled by loving people. You don't need to do anything else, once you have a proper perspective and solid grasp on love.

"Sabbath" and "Sacrifice" are mere shadow externalizes that point to the fact that you should love other people to make this world function properly.

[Bird's Eye View]

I think that would make God very happy indeed!!

[Gibs]

I think it may be the other way around as the first of the law of love is,

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Our first love is to God as He first loved us and gave Himself for us. He became our example and He loves all men, even the rebellious, He only hates their ways.

So we too should see to love our fellow man and help him out of his rebelliousness. All men are our brothers!

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Because the commandment just says, "Remember," I can't say where it was first understood to be part of the 10 Commandments. It could have been anytime from when it was sanctified and blessed at Creation to when it was given at Sinai. But if the day was sanctified at Creation it certainly had a holy, special designation from that time onward.

As to the New Covenant, I see it as better because it was a promise to take those principles from the tablets of stone (outward compliance) and place them in the hearts of the people. I do believe that they were in the hearts of the faithful beforehand who obeyed in love, but obviously not in all. The nation of Israel had many bouts of idolatry where their allegiance was to gods of wood and stone, and at these times were very violent as well (Isaiah and Jeremiah).

The righteousness of Christ places the 10 Commandment principles within the heart. When He dwells in the heart by faith He brings His beloved into unity with those principles.

[Gail]

God's love is the most wonderful thing; when it is reflected in those who carry His name it is a testimony to Him.

Can you imagine what our world would be like if everyone could witness with their lives of the love of God? That is... Heaven!

[Bird's Eye View]

Because the commandment just says, "Remember," I can't say where it was first understood to be part of the 10 Commandments. It could have been anytime from when it was sanctified and blessed at Creation to when it was given at Sinai. But if the day was sanctified at Creation it certainly had a holy, special designation from that time onward.

Thanks Gail. I didn't mean to put you on the spot!

I did some more digging, and maybe it is alluding to Exodus 16:22-30?

It might be there it is first given as an instruction?

I don't see how the Sabbath commandment could be written in the heart though, unless already having been made aware of it somehow. The Commandment to "Love one another" though, that one I can see being widespread without need of outward instruction.

[Bird's Eye View]

The reason I can't get too dogmatic about the Sabbath in general is because the Creation story has had a different hypothesis of it told by so many various cultures down through the ages. None of us were around when it happened! No one really knows if God "rested on a seventh day". We can only take so much of any religion on the basis of Faith. That's why I think, for the Creator of the entire Universe, if He sees His creatures living in peace with one another, watching over his creation, whether the environment or the animals, looking out for those less fortunate, etc, and even respecting each others rights to their own beliefs and not claiming to be the only right way to think,...He could look down and be well-pleased. I think LOVE is just that one thing most people can agree upon. Unfortunately, we don't see enough of it in action these days.

But, I do think the custom of a Sabbath rest is a good thing, and taking a day to set aside our weekly habits is healthy.

Honoring God every day is best of all!

[Gibs]

You must remember though, B.E.V. that Satan claimed to be of love and knew good better than God and that he and the angels with him needed no instructions.

It just boils down that only God alone is Good and of necessity must set out the instructions of Love and Good of which He is.

And when love is truly instilled in us, it has become our law that is our love to do.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Notice, "not grievous" as we of love to Him and our fellows fulfill it as it is our desire to do and no sweat.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

I never claimed it was "grievous" to keep the Sabbath.

Nor is it "grievous" to love one another if we have love in our hearts to give.

Your post doesn't do anything to dispell the fact that none of us was around when Creation began, if that is what you meant to address.

Some things we either accept in faith or we don't. I'm not judging anyone for their beliefs. Just stating a fact.

Connecting Satan to my comment about Loving one another being pleasing to God just seems a little unnecessary though.

Yes, I believe, too, that God is the source of Love, but all cultures have known what love is, we don't need an instruction manual for that. It is one of the best things of all about the way we are made, that we have that supreme ability to love!

[Gibs]

Well certainly God gave to his newly created pair instructions and the Word states He rested that first Seventh day of earth and blessed and hallowed that day, so Sabbath was a statute from get go for all on this earth since.

BEV, I only brought up Satan because he did not want to have to abide by God's instructions and we know He and the Angels too were held to the same as we are.

I don't need to have been around when creation began as His Word lays the truth of it and yes I have absolute faith in His Word and so in Him.

Yes we all have a love for good, God or for bad, evil, Satan and what he has brought to men to take up. So many of mankind have come to love the evil and great love for their own kind.

So it matters what we love and of necessity if we will be His, it must be Him with all our hearts and souls. Our God that is love, God has a right to lay out the instructions of love.

Which is a natural thing and our desire to do if it is Godly love in us.

His Word to us will provide any answer we need. The best and greatest teacher in this world. Should we not accept it by solid faith?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

All of the religion supposed to do one thing - help you love other people more, because you can't love God without loving other people. It's impossible. That's the only way you can love God. So, the entire law is fulfilled by loving people. You don't need to do anything else, once you have a proper perspective and solid grasp on love.

"Sabbath" and "Sacrifice" are mere shadow externalizes that point to the fact that you should love other people to make this world function properly.

The only problem with your assertion is that without loving God first, and consequently having Him at the center of everything we do(obeying Him), it is impossible for us to love others the way God would have us love them.

[Bird's Eye View]

Well certainly God gave to his newly created pair instructions and the Word states He rested that first Seventh day of earth and blessed and hallowed that day

But Gibs, I merely stated that we believe that or not based on FAITH, and that is fine, but no one can state they know for sure, even if it is written in the Bible.

(I know that must sound terribly unpopular at a Christian forum, but that's just my point of view.)

[Bird's Eye View]

The only problem with your assertion is that without loving God first, and consequently having Him at the center of everything we do(obeying Him), it is impossible for us to love others the way God would have us love them.

I just have to wonder though....based on the direction this thread is going,...are people saying that without knowing God by way of the Bible that they cannot know God or know how to love?

I would have to disagree, if that is the case. God was around long before the Bible.

[ClubV12]

Bear in mind BEV there are all kinds of folks on this site who represent many view points that are not consistent with Seventh-day Adventist doctrine or view points. Some even appear to BE Seventh-day Adventists who are not! Imagine that, wolves in sheep clothing, who woulda thunk it. Others are adamantly opposed to the Adventist Church beliefs. Still others could be characterized as crackpot or nuts, by most everyone else here regardless of what they may or may not believe.

It appears that in your case you keep the Sabbath, which is nice. Many others here also keep the Sabbath, but doing that means many different things to different people.

Confused yet? Yeah, it's like that around here. It takes awhile to figure out who you can trust, a little bit, and who you should just flat out ignore!

As for me, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, no asterisks, excuses, explanation required. I'm a member in good standing and I support the fundamental and doctrinal views of the Adventist Church. Not everybody sees that as a good thing, I'm just saying, thats what I am. And I'm tickled to be that, grateful to our Lord for showing me what I believe is the truth.

Come let us reason together, says the Lord. I did that, reasoned it out, applied logic and math and concluded, yup, these folks are onto something. At some point I began to realize that logic, math, reason only takes you so far because spiritual things are, after all, spiritually discerned. But logic was what got me started. The doctrine just makes sense!

[Gibs]

BEV,

I think you misstated here so won't hold you to it, You stated,

"I would have to disagree, if that is the case. God was around long before the Bible."

Certainly that is true as the Bible didn't begin to be written for some time after men populated the earth.

I do have a comment however and that is, to know God is to know Love and then to love Him. Don't you and I certainly believe to get to know Him is from His Word to us.

You can not know Him from beauty of being a visible handsome Great God because He is a Spirit.

We know Him from the beauty of His Love, Justice and Truth. Then from His Grace to make a way of salvation for us the lost. Really don't we when investigating deeply find He is ALL things to us?

Then BEV, you stated,

"But Gibs, I merely stated that we believe that or not based on FAITH, and that is fine, but no one can state they know for sure, even if it is written in the Bible."

Well, if there is any solid ground to stand on in this old world it definitely is the Holy Word of God.

That is absolutely as good as if I had been here from day one of earth. Are we not saved by faith? We sure are! Had we not better gather up a good big sufficient lot of it?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

Just off-hand, Gibs, the Bible says, in Romans 1:19. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

I quit having absolute faith in the Bible when it dawned on me how all cultures have had their "religions" throughout life.

I asked myself, what makes the Hebrews version the only ones that is valid? I say the same for all, they are believed through Faith, more than absolute FACT. and I'm not saying that is a bad thing, because it is good to have faith, but Christians often mistake Faith for Fact and become intolerably rigid toward others.

I'm not saying I know what "all truth" is, but I don't have to believe the Bible to know there is a God.

[Bird's Eye View]

Bear in mind BEV there are all kinds of folks on this site who represent many view points

I have noticed some of that. Which is why, even though I don't consider myself an Adventist, I didn't think it would be a problem for me to post here.

My views have been in flux for a little while now. I can't label myself as anything really.

I do believe God knows who and what I am though, and that's good enough for me.

[Gibs]

Just off-hand, Gibs, the Bible says, in Romans 1:19. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

I quit having absolute faith in the Bible when it dawned on me how all cultures have had their "religions" throughout life.

I asked myself, what makes the Hebrews version the only ones that is valid? I say the same for all, they are believed through Faith, more than absolute FACT. and I'm not saying that is a bad thing, because it is good to have faith, but Christians often mistake Faith for Fact and become intolerably rigid toward others.

I'm not saying I know what "all truth" is, but I don't have to believe the Bible to know there is a God.

I did not need the Bible either to know that there is a God. But I learned there are many gods and was only interested in knowing the one and only Creator God.

I found the one place He can be found and that is the Bible. It is the only valid one as the Word it's self proves it is the Word of God.

For the most and foremost important one it reveals is the fact that the Creator God of the Bible is the only one predicting and proving a Savior and then the prophecy fulfilled to the last point.

All other gods and religions are proven false because of no Savior who proved He was the life and through Him we can have eternal life with Him.

The sure Word of Prophecy not only proves God is real but proves it is His Word. Prophecy, true prophecy is future history fulfilled exactly as prophesied.

The great and only reason our Bible is valid is because it came by the Holy prophets by His Spirit. He is Spirit.

We had a prophecy of the Savior long, long before He came,

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You should know who and what the "enmity" is and Satan's head bruised will be his end.

He was prophesied many times and if you want a gospel given before He came, read Isaiah 53:, only 12 verses but tells of Christ perfectly.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gods second book is nature. Even the heathen without a bible or knowledge of Jesus can find salvation by living up to the light he is able to learn from natures book of God.

[Bird's Eye View]

That's good to see you say that, Club.

Gibs, as good as all that sounds, the truth is that many claims about the Bible ARE debatable. Whether one wants to look into discrepancies or not.

I've had faith in Christ for a long, long time, and don't see that fading away. However, I also can see where certain aspects of religion may have been conjured up or flat-out hi-jacked for a different cause, and we are told we only see now "through a glass, darkly".

My point is, you may be right, or another may be right, or none of us may be right!

We just need to hope we can do the best we can with what He gives us.

That's why I believe "love" to be the deciding factor of whether we are obeying God's greatest command, if there ever was one.

I'm not here to debate what is right or wrong. I'm just saying, let's be really careful about what we discern to be of Faith and what can be determined to be actual Fact, and tread lightly.