On-going Debate

[scott.t]

From Matthew Ch.19

16 ¶And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the ccommandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 ¶Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

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[Bird's Eye View]

Thanks, Scott. I think you get my point, that it isn't always as clear as some people think it is!

I appreciate you chiming in!

[Bird's Eye View]

Jackson, my faith in the Bible has been given some serious blows lately, and if not for my long-standing faith in Christ, I'd be tempted to become some sort of Deist!

Now truly, God knows why I think what I think, and seeing as how he endowed us with the gifts of thought and reason, I don't think he minds me being a little skeptical,...for reasons I won't go into at this time.

But, I appreciate your point of view, I really do. I don't fault you for it in the least.

It's your choice where to put your faith.

Thanks for commenting.

[ClubV12]

Rudywoofs, a prophet is a prophet is a prophet. Some are minor, some are major, some we know very little about and they never authored any books in the bible. They are still prophets. Ellen White is either a prophet, or she is not. Some prophets were simply called, "a man of God", we don't even know their name.

The cannon was closed with John the Revelator. Never the less, the bible tells us that prophets will continue well into the future. Whether they author a book of the bible or not does not mean they are not prophets. Ellen White must be considered a major prophet if for no other reason than the sheer volume, length and her key roll in raising up the true Church for these end times. This is no minor accomplishment! Her work will never be considered part of the cannon, the bible. As she herself noted, THAT is THEE book by which all men will be judged. Not the laws of Moses, which to this day contain information that is essential to understanding the bible. Moses was a lesser light, in that regard, leading to a greater light. A lesser light doesn't mean we can ignore it, it remains "light".

Paul wrote letters to the Churches, in his day, there was a debate among the believers as to how they should be accepted. No doubt some questioned whether they should be accepted at all! Luther questioned whether or not Revelation should be included in the cannon, he thought NOT.

Ellen White is an inspired messenger, a prophetess and MORE, a messenger. Her work included that of a prophet but went beyond that of a prophet. Understanding that doesn't mean she should be considered equal to the cannon. Nor can she so easily be dismissed because she WAS a prophet!

[Bird's Eye View]

Thanks for your concern Jackson. You may have misunderstood me though.

It's not that I was saying I'm so "sincere in my beliefs"...(my beliefs have been going through lots of questioning)...but I do believe God judges our hearts, yes.

Scripture is good, but not everyone comes away with the same conclusions as to what it means.

If you're saying I sincerely believe God judges our hearts, yes, that is what I was saying.

And if He is not merciful in that regard, then what?

[ClubV12]

The Bereans were skeptical, I'm skeptical! Like them, I search the scriptures to see whether these things are so, or not. Skeptical is good, do be careful lest one take it to far.

I established certain "absolute beliefs" along the way as I learned more and more about the plan of salvation, the gospel.

God is the creator, no question, evolution remains a theory of men. The seventh day is the Sabbath of rest. Jesus died that I might live. And many others, they grow with time. As I settle into the truth and knowledge of the plan.

[Gerr]

Many believe the Sabbath is a sign for the Israelites.

"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come..."Ex.31:13

Just saying,...I don't see how Christians sincerely putting their faith in Christ could be a bad thing. If they are mistaken somehow, then it may be that the New Testament is not so clear on that commandment being given to Gentiles.

Tell me, when did the Gentiles become "Israelites"?

Or is that not even a valid point?

ESV | ýRo 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

ESV | ýGa 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

ESV | ýRo 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

ESV | ýEx 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

[Bird's Eye View]

Glad you brought that up, Gerry.

Why would the God of all the universe separate people so, having made such a broad spectrum of ethnicities, why just Jew and "Other"?

The scriptures quoted aren't even in agreement,are they?

Either you're a Jew inwardly or there is no Jew or Greek? Which is it ?

Why must we be a Jew "inwardly" or any other way?

This concerns me. Is God, the Father of all creation a Jew?

What is a Jew? Someone from Judea? Someone who practices Judaism?

Who is the Synagogue of Satan, who claim they are Jews but are not?

Questions, questions,...

(Not directed only at you, Gerry. I'm not asking you to answer them really, just putting them out there.)

[ClubV12]

Abraham wasn't a Jew, nor was Adam and many others whom God used and spoke through. It would not be correct to "label" them as Gentiles either!

The Jewish nation, Jews, is fitting way to describe Gods chosen people, His Church on earth. That group of people who were called out of Egypts slavery after 400 years were to be a new nation. An example, to the world of their time, Gods plan for mans life. One BIG problem the Jewish Nation had was this idea that somehow it was exclusively for them. That was NEVER the plan! They were to demonstrate His ways to nations of the world steeped in idolatry, false worship. And the Nations of the world saw that the Jewish plan was good, it was well organized, fair, just, took care of the poor and was blessed by some God bigger and more able than they had! Even in Old Testament time provision was made for ANYBODY to come join the Jewish Nation. Live with them, worship with them, you never had to be Jewish to do that. The Jews were simply the chosen vehicle to get the message out.

They were SUPPOSED to remain the chosen vessel for all time! But their constant rebellion and crucifixtion of Christ was the final nail in their coffin. The responsibility to reach "man kind" was taken away from them and given to the "Gentiles". Which means, EVERYBODY who was not of the Jewish Nation. The gospel would no longer be exclusive to any given people. The need for a single group, a specific nation, had passed with the dawning of a new age of understanding.

Personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with this concept of "spiritual Israel" or "spiritual Jew". I understand what that means but I think it's a bit narrow in viewpoint. I'm a Christian, I, like the Jewish Nation before me, hold to many of the same ideas, principles and lifestyle they did. Because, thats what God was trying to teach the whole world through that chosen group in the first place!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Judaism(wiki)In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews (including converts, according to Jewish tradition), and the father of Judaism, the first Jew.[18] His life can be read in the weekly Torah reading portions, predominantly in the parashot: Lech-Lecha (לֶךְ-לְךָ), Vayeira (וַיֵּרָא), Chayei Sarah (חַיֵּי שָׂרָה), and Toledot (תּוֹלְדֹת).

>>>Our statement that Abraham was "the father of the Jews" does not mean Abraham was himself a Jew—....

The statement recognizes the fact that the promises which led to the Jews found their origin in God's working with Abraham. Therefore, he is considered "the father of the Jews" in that he is their ancestor in a special way.

Yes, many other peoples descended from Abraham besides those through the line of Isaac and Jacob, but since the line of promise went from Abraham, through Isaac, to Jacob, and not to the other offspring, there is a special relationship between the origin of the promises in Abraham and their destination in Jacob and his offspring, the Jews.<<<<<

spiritandtruth.org

[Bird's Eye View]

BEV, in the judgment, for those who continued to "sincerely doubt" the question will be, why did you not believe my word?

Answers like yours all depend on "the word" really being THE word of GOD.

That is not easy to prove. In fact, there are opinions that some parts of the Bible are just older myths and legends retold with a different twist and using different names.

The Creation story is one such story we can start with saying we really don't KNOW, we just either believe what the writers said or we don't.

I have found some very troubling correlations over the past couple of years that make me wonder about a lot of things.

I can't really comment any further to your post, except to say,...if the Bible didn't tell us we needed "saving", would we have come up with that on our own? Would we have thought we were in need of a "sacrifice" to save us from our sin? Or is this just a religious concoction?

No need to answer that, just something I've pondered over.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

The only problem with your assertion is that without loving God first, and consequently having Him at the center of everything we do(obeying Him), it is impossible for us to love others the way God would have us love them.

I just have to wonder though....based on the direction this thread is going,...are people saying that without knowing God by way of the Bible that they cannot know God or know how to love?

I would have to disagree, if that is the case. God was around long before the Bible.

Yes, God has always been around. But, what does that have to do with what I said? The devil sinned in heaven long before the Bible existed, and sin is the transgression of the law. Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden, and that was long before the Bible too. God is just, therefore He could not have held Lucifer or Adam and Eve responsible for sin if they knew nothing about His law.

What did Jesus say is keeping the law? Loving God with all our heart and mind, loving our neighbor as ourself. So what is breaking the law? Not loving God with all our heart and mind, and not loving our neighbor as ourself. So, not loving God with all their hearts is really what Lucifer and Adam and Eve were guilty of.

As to not having the Bible around, the Holy Spirit works on all of our hearts and minds, even if we can't/don't recognize His work and influence upon us. He shows us what God requires and we have a choice to either follow that leading or reject it. And in that it shows whether or not we love God. For if we love the principles that the Holy Spirit shows us that come from the Father, then we love the Father, and we will live by the principles that come from His throne.

[Bird's Eye View]

Yes, God has always been around. But, what does that have to do with what I said? The devil sinned in heaven long before the Bible existed, and sin is the transgression of the law. Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden, and that was long before the Bible too. God is just, therefore He could not have held Lucifer or Adam and Eve responsible for sin if they knew nothing about His law.

What did Jesus say is keeping the law? Loving God with all our heart and mind, loving our neighbor as ourself. So what is breaking the law? Not loving God with all our heart and mind, and not loving our neighbor as ourself. So, not loving God with all their hearts is really what Lucifer and Adam and Eve were guilty of.

As to not having the Bible around, the Holy Spirit works on all of our hearts and minds, even if we can't/don't recognize His work and influence upon us. He shows us what God requires and we have a choice to either follow that leading or reject it. And in that it shows whether or not we love God. For if we love the principles that the Holy Spirit shows us that come from the Father, then we love the Father, and we will live by the principles that come from His throne.

Sorry Joe. I was just asking if people on this thread thought they couldn't know God without the Bible.

I really like what you said here in this post, especially this part:

... the Holy Spirit works on all of our hearts and minds, even if we can't/don't recognize His work and influence upon us.

[Bird's Eye View]

Abraham wasn't a Jew, nor was Adam and many others whom God used and spoke through. It would not be correct to "label" them as Gentiles either!

The Jewish nation, Jews, is fitting way to describe Gods chosen people, His Church on earth. That group of people who were called out of Egypts slavery after 400 years were to be a new nation. An example, to the world of their time, Gods plan for mans life. One BIG problem the Jewish Nation had was this idea that somehow it was exclusively for them. That was NEVER the plan! They were to demonstrate His ways to nations of the world steeped in idolatry, false worship. And the Nations of the world saw that the Jewish plan was good, it was well organized, fair, just, took care of the poor and was blessed by some God bigger and more able than they had! Even in Old Testament time provision was made for ANYBODY to come join the Jewish Nation. Live with them, worship with them, you never had to be Jewish to do that. The Jews were simply the chosen vehicle to get the message out.

They were SUPPOSED to remain the chosen vessel for all time! But their constant rebellion and crucifixtion of Christ was the final nail in their coffin. The responsibility to reach "man kind" was taken away from them and given to the "Gentiles". Which means, EVERYBODY who was not of the Jewish Nation. The gospel would no longer be exclusive to any given people. The need for a single group, a specific nation, had passed with the dawning of a new age of understanding.

Personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with this concept of "spiritual Israel" or "spiritual Jew". I understand what that means but I think it's a bit narrow in viewpoint. I'm a Christian, I, like the Jewish Nation before me, hold to many of the same ideas, principles and lifestyle they did. Because, thats what God was trying to teach the whole world through that chosen group in the first place!

That's a nice way of putting that Club.

I hope that is how it is meant.

[ClubV12]

"I was just asking if people on this thread thought they couldn't know God without the Bible."

I answered that question before it was asked, I think. Anyway, several pages back. Concerning Gods "second book", the book of nature. The book that allows for salvation of even the heathen who has never heard of the bible or the name Jesus. The one that doesn't steal arrows from others in the village because he knows in his heart that will bring grief, tears, hurt to others. He is truly, sincerely, concerned about others wellfare. As opposed to the heathen who doesn't steal arrows because he knows he might get injured, beat up or even killed for it! All though, such "fear" may have been the beginning of wisdom for him!

God has TWO Churches. The visible Church, which He wants to use to demonstrate to the world His way of life and reveal the beauty in that life. The Jews were His visible Church on earth. But He also has another Church, it is not some Cathedral, some building, it is not something humans can see or discern.

The heathen who lives a just life is a member. Every SAINT who ever lived is a member. By faith I believe I am a member, but to remain one, I must also remain faithful until my death. His hidden Church is comprised of all those who have ever truly loved and followed Him, as well as those who have lived up to all the light they have been given.

Man see's "wheat and tares", a mixture of good and bad. Some members of the visible Church leave a nasty impression on folks, some a very lovely impression. He has told us to let the wheat and tares grow together, because we cannot read the heart, the soul, only God can. Only He knows who is in His hidden Church.

[Bird's Eye View]

"I was just asking if people on this thread thought they couldn't know God without the Bible."

I answered that question before it was asked, I think.

I remember that you did, and I was glad to see you say it!

It's also good for me to see you're not the only one.

There have been many good replies to this thread. They encourage me to want to read them over a second or third time!!

Much thanks to all!!!

[Gibs]

It seems to me that since Jesus told us,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him "MUST" worship him in spirit and in truth.

That it would be the thing to do to go to His Holy Word of truth to ascertain what the truth is and get to know Him who gave it. To know Him is to love Him.

Then we can know this,

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Notice this verse and the words "that I may know him" and the word "comform a ble", not comfortable.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Men have written up a lot of STUFF of which don't have the banner of truth, so it sure would be wise to open and read of the Words God breathed through His prophets.

Since God is a Spirit, that is how He comes to His prophets. He writes that Word to them indelibly in their minds and what they expound is not their word but His.

No prophet of God ever had any trouble in getting wrote out precisely what God had communicated to him!

This is why there is unity and harmony of all the prophets writings all up through time and to our days of EGW. Note! the wonderful Unity and Harmony!

His Word is a lamp unto our feet!

Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Wonderful light, so we can "SEE".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

Quoting the Bible is a fine source for relating your faith, Gibs, but to people who are looking at the Bible's claims more skeptically, it comes across as "The Bible is true because the words in this Bible say so!" (?)

Either the Bible is true, or it's the greatest NLP con job there ever was!

(neuro-linguistic programming)

Seriously, the Bible even says how "the righteous will live by faith". There are two ways you can look at that. The unquestioning belief in what the Bible tells us about God is true, or, you could see an ulterior motive as if to say "don't question or over-analyze what is put forth in this book!"

I don't say that just to be contrary,...just presenting a couple different ways of looking at things here, from an objective point of view, from someone who has more questions than answers!

[Gibs]

A study of His Word with the Spirit of God guiding IT proves to you that it is the absolute Truth from Him.

Just the Unity and Harmony of all the prophets from beginning to end proves it.

From that we know that it is not the works and words of man but from the Greatest One up through the ages who breathed the same testimony to them all.

Take for instance this Gospel, in the area of 600 yrs. before,

Isa 53:1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

That alone could only come from the Omniscient One!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

The 2,300 year prophecy in Daniel was particularly impressive to me when I first began to investigate the truth. I carefully analyzed it, double checked the historic event records, was SURE I had found a couple of mistakes. But in the end, had to acknowledge this was an amazing prophecy fulfilled. Then I went to William Millers take on it, sure enough, I thought I found a couple of crucial mistakes in his analysis. In the end, I had to concur with his findings. In spite of the fact he DID make a mistake in what the end of the prophecy pointed to.

In time I began to realize that math and logic have their limits. At some point you have to adjust to "faith" and "spiritual things can only be understood by the spiritual". Not at all something I was comfortable with.

My career was one of analyzing what went wrong on construction job sites. What solutions could be put into place. What we should do now. If I was there, it was because something bad had happened, I was not always a popular guy. Often working with a team, sometimes by myself. My work took me all over the world. Reasoning from cause to effect was what I did for a living (now retired). For a guy used to working with absolute black and white, ones and zero's this "faith" thing was a hard pill to swallow. :)

[Bird's Eye View]

Yes, Daniel is another one hard to dispute.

I'm not out to disprove them. I happen to like having faith in Christ and how Biblical principles have helped to shape my life.

But being realistic, I do allow for conspiracies.

I just hope Jesus is what we have been told.

[ClubV12]

Thats a very important point you mention, not being out to prove something wrong. Paramount to my job description. Just follow the train of evidence, where ever it may lead.

I was simply looking to verify what I believed was THEE most important prophecy to the Adventist Church. On it hinges everything. What if these things were not so? Better double check...

You know, I was so full of self when I started. Thinking I was so smart I could determine for myself. Looking back I see now that it was not me, the Holy Spirit had revealed these things to me.

[Bird's Eye View]

You know how the internet is though,...you can read thousands of perspectives you'd never have imagined before. It has taught me to be more hesitant before I claim anything to be absolute truth, and consequently I try to distinguish more carefully what is Faith and what is a Fact.

That's not criticizing Faith, or claiming Truth doesn't exist, but I've been wrong before, especially where the Bible and prophecy is concerned, in spite of being sincerely searching for truth. It's a process!

Here's a site I've spent no small amount of time at....136 pages of Conspiracies in Religion! Can't say some of it didn't put a dent in my previous unquestioning faith!

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/25/pg1/srtpgs http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/25/pg1/srtpgs

[Bird's Eye View]

This recent thread from there is a good example of what I was saying about perspectives I'd never considered before! And it's nice that there are people from many different schools of thought on this forum, so usually the threads have some balance. (Not always, but sometimes!)

Did Satan turn Jesus into an Idol?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread978402/pg1 http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread978402/pg1

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

just hope Jesus is what we have been told.

It's not as important that I be right as it is to know Jesus is right.

"But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”"

Matthew 9:6 NKJV

God cares!