Prophetic Framework Acts 3, Isaiah 2, Daniel 2

[TrevorL]

The aim of this thread is to briefly consider a few prophecies and establish a framework of understanding.

The Apostle Peter encourages us to look at the Prophetic Word in the following:

2 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV): 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Peter also speaks of the Prophetic Word in his speech:

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (restoration RV, NASB) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

A number of things are clearly stated here. It speaks of the return of Jesus, and that at his return Jesus will usher in the times of refreshing and the times of restoration of all things. Peter states that these things are the subject matter of what God has spoken through all His holy prophets.

Looking first at one of the major writing prophets, Isaiah:

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

There are a number of features in this prophecy. This speaks concerning Judah and Jerusalem and this is literal Jerusalem in the land of Judah. It speaks of the last days and by comparison with Acts 3:19-21 this is at the time of the return of Jesus from heaven. There will be restoration as God’s House or Temple will be established again in Jerusalem, and there will be refreshing as the nations will flow up to Jerusalem to worship and for instruction in the ways of God. This is set in the context of judgement on the nations, and the armaments of war will be turned into agricultural instruments.

Looking next at the remarkable prophecy in Daniel 2, it is important to establish that the various metals represent a succession of world empires. Daniel identifies the head of gold as Babylon, and that after Babylon there would be a kingdom inferior to Babylon, and this is evidently Medo-Persia as recorded in the events of Daniel 5, and a third kingdom Greece as prophesied in Daniel 8.

Daniel 2:37-39 (KJV): 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

The fourth kingdom of iron similarly is Rome, and then the iron and clay is the subdivision of the Roman Empire into strong and weak nations.

Daniel interpreted the dream of Nebuchadnezzar with the following additional detail, consistent with the above sequence:

Daniel 2:34-35 (KJV): 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Having established a sequence, it is important to note that the stone hits the image upon the feet, that is after the subdivision of the Roman Empire. This then is the time when the kingdoms of men will be superseded by the kingdom of God as stated in verse 44 and this kingdom, as verse 35 states, will fill the whole earth. This is the Kingdom of Heaven, not because it will be in heaven, but because the God of Heaven will replace the kingdoms of men.

Thus the Kingdom of God will be established on earth at the return of Jesus from heaven, and will be centred in literal Jerusalem. The nations will be judged and the remnant of these nations will come to worship and be instructed at Jerusalem. The kingdom will fully replace the kingdoms of men, and it will fill the whole earth.

Kind regards

Trevor

[Samie]

The kingdom prophesied in Dan 2:44 was set up when Jesus died on the cross - the kingdom of grace. This is the kingdom whose citizens are those whose names remain written in the registry of heaven - the book of life.

[8thdaypriest]

If the image represented a succession of nations, and pagan ROME was represented by the legs of iron, then the kingdom represented by the "stone" was not set up at the time of pagan ROME. The stone didn't hit the legs.

The whole image (head to feet) will be destroyed by the stone, at the Second Coming.

After that - the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that will last forever.

Trevor,

I don't believe that Messiah will set up His kingdom on earth, reigning from Jerusalem when He returns in glory. I believe the redeemed must be removed from this earth because the earth is about to be "burned up".

If EVERY mountain and island is "moved out of its place" - that is an earthquake on the order of a 12. We've never known such an earthquake. EVERY fault the world over will move. If EVERY mountain will be flattened, then the Mount of Olives, and the Temple Mount will also be flattened.

There is a Psalm where David said the LORD will uncover the foundations of the earth. If all seawater is vaporized into outer space, then the bottom of the oceans would be exposed. There would be "no more sea".

Jeremiah wrote that he "saw the earth" after the "great day of the LORD" and "it was without form and void" (Jer. 4:23-26). Those are the same words used in Genesis 1, before the LORD created anything. If this earth will be "without form and void", it is hard for me to believe that any human being will be living here - much less teaching the nations.

In the Septuagint the Greek word “abussos” (Strong’s #12 - meaning bottomless or boundless) was used to translate the Hebrew “bohuw” (#0922 - meaning emptiness, void or waste). The same Greek word “abussos” is translated as “bottomless pit” in Revelation 20:1-2 of our English Bible. Satan is thrown into the abyss - the emptiness, the void, the waste - a perfect description of earth after the seven last plagues.

The LORD said that the land (earth) would REST in DESOLATION. Desolation is rest for the land. The 7th millennium is the Sabbath millennium - so it makes sense that the land should rest - and it rests in desolation.

Leviticus 26:34-35 “Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest – for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.”

Aaron and his sons were told to wait at the door of the Tabernacle UNTIL the 8th day. They were NOT to officiate as priests UNTIL "the 8th day". "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day." The 8th Day would be the 8th millennium - NOT the 7th.

I DO believe that all of redeemed Israel (grafted into Christ as High Priest), will serve as priests to teach the nations. But I do NOT believe that "the nations" are made up of people who survive the 7 last plagues. I believe "the nations" will be "the rest of the dead" - people who lived and died in ignorance of Yahweh and His ways - who will be raised to continue their physical lives, learn His ways, then choose whom they will serve.

I DO NOT believe "the rest of the dead" will be the wicked from 6000 years of history. The wicked are resurrected, judged and "burned up" at the Second Coming (See Daniel 12:2-3). Why raise them AGAIN, to burn them up AGAIN. My God is not like THAT.

I have written a whole book titled "The 8th Day".

It is available to read at my website.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

The whole image (head to feet) will be destroyed by the stone, at the Second Coming.

After that - the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that will last forever.

[8thdaypriest]

God's Kingdom is in a different dimension - the spirit dimension. But it can "come near" to us. That doesn't mean that we have experienced the FILLED-full-ment. Now we see through a glass darkly.

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

Are you saying the Kingdom of God Jesus referred to when He was here on earth is also the Kingdom of God you said He will set up at the 2nd Coming?

[TrevorL]

Greetings Samie,

The kingdom prophesied in Dan 2:44 was set up when Jesus died on the cross - the kingdom of grace. This is the kingdom whose citizens are those whose names remain written in the registry of heaven - the book of life.

I can appreciate to some extent how you arrive at this conclusion, as Jesus is the Christ or King, and the believer comes under the rule of Jesus. In a sense Jesus as the King incorporates all that flows from what he is and what he has achieved. This sort of language is even used in Daniel 2 to describe Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdom:

Daniel 2:37-38 (KJV): 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

A king not only rules but he has a dominion, and the word kingdom comes from both words, king and dominion. There are many scriptures that speak about this future kingdom:

Psalm 72:7-8 (KJV): 7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 9:9-10 (KJV): 9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV): I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Daniel 2:44 in particular speak of a specific future kingdom to replace the kingdoms of men. Your assessment of Daniel 2:44 seems to ignore the sequence of the four metals and the feet of iron and clay. The stone strikes the image upon the feet, indicating that this occurs after the breakup of the Roman Empire into weak and strong nations, while Jesus was crucified in the time of the Roman Empire. When Jesus was crucified the Roman Empire continued. The figure of the stone striking and completely destroying the image does not seem to fit the idea of simply preaching the gospel and believers receiving grace or forgiveness. Jesus applies the figure and action of the stone in Daniel 2:35,44 in the opposite sense to what you are suggesting:

Matthew 21:44 (KJV): And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Kind regards

Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings Rachel (8thdaypriest),

I appreciate your response and will consider it in more detail in the next day or two (I am old and slow). Perhaps my key passage is Acts 3:19-21 and this speaks of times of refreshing and restoration when Jesus returns, not the complete burning and destruction that you seem to indicate. Yes there will be judgements and some of them severe but the overall effect will be refreshing and restoration. Jesus is coming to bless. I have added additional material below and this to my mind reinforces the opening post.

The aim of the rest of this post is to consider some additional Scriptures and prophecies that agree with Acts 3, Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2. In the process this should confirm the conclusions reached in the opening post and give more detail to gain a better understanding of the overall picture.

The following is spoken directly by the Angel Gabriel, not by a prophet, but it is prophetic in that it speaks of the future role to be fulfilled by Jesus:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

There is a link between verses 32-33 and Acts 3, Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2. Acts 3 speaks of restoration, and here there is a restoration of the throne of David, ruling over the house of Jacob for ever. This restoration will not only require the overthrow and replacement of the present system of things in Jerusalem, but also the conversion of a remnant of the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Isaiah 2 speaks of Jerusalem being the centre of the kingdom of God and this is where the throne of David was previously established. And Daniel 2:44 states that the Kingdom of God will stand for ever, while here in v33 it says “of his kingdom there shall be no end”.

Micah 4:1-3 has almost the same words as Isaiah 2:1-4, but Micah sets them in a different context. Some of the verses that follow are instructive:

Micah 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

This gives additional information to Isaiah 2:1-4. Micah here speaks of “her that halteth” and “her that is driven out” and “her that I have afflicted”. It then speaks of her becoming a remnant and a strong nation. This is speaking of the judgement, restoration and conversion of natural Israel, and she will become the first dominion of the kingdom of God. This detail also is consistent with:

Matthew 19:28 (KJV): 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Another clear prophecy concerning the existence of mortal nations after the return of Christ and during the kingdom is Zechariah 14. The whole chapter needs to be read, but the following indicates that mortal nations will be upon the earth during the kingdom.

Zechariah 14:8-9 (KJV): 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:16-17 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Kind regards

Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

Greetings Rachel (8thdaypriest),

Another clear prophecy concerning the existence of mortal nations after the return of Christ and during the kingdom is Zechariah 14. The whole chapter needs to be read, but the following indicates that mortal nations will be upon the earth during the kingdom.

Zechariah 14:8-9 (KJV): 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:16-17 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Kind regards

Trevor

Greetings Trevor,

I absolutely agree that there will be mortal human beings (whole nations of them) on this earth AFTER the Second Coming. They are governed by the priesthood. They come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles - or refuse to come. Some come up to learn the ways of the LORD. Others do not.

I just place the timeline differently.

I believe these people will sleep in death during the 7th millennium. (They are NOT raised at the Second Coming.) They are resurrected ("live again") AFTER the 1000 years - which would put the activity described by Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah, Jeremiah - in the 8th millennium. The "8th day".

I believe the resurrected "nations in the four corners of the earth" were prophetically represented by the "mixed multitude". Did you know that there was a mixed multitude who left Babylon with the returning Israelites following Zerubbabel.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

...

I believe these people will sleep in death during the 7th millennium. (They are NOT raised at the Second Coming.)

...

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

When is this coming hour if NOT at the 2nd Coming, Sis Rachel?

Whatever the case, both the living who are in Christ and those who have died in Christ will be be rising to heaven together with Jesus.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 NKJV

"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.”"John 14:2-4 NKJV

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."John 14:6 NKJV

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:32 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Samie]

When Christ comes, the dead in Christ will be resurrected first. Reason why they are said to belong to the first resurrection.

If at the second coming, the righteous are to be first resurrected, that indirectly tells us, the wicked will be resurrected next, because in that hour all in the graves will be resurrected as Jesus Himself said.

[8thdaypriest]

Originally Posted By: 8thdaypriest

...

I believe these people will sleep in death during the 7th millennium. (They are NOT raised at the Second Coming.)

...

Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ Himself said there is a coming HOUR when ALL dead - both righteous and wicked - will be resurrected:

Quote:

NKJV John 5:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

29 "and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

When is this coming hour if NOT at the 2nd Coming, Sis Rachel?

The righteous and the wicked are ALL resurrected at the Second Coming. The ignorant (therefore not righteous or wicked because they have not made a choice yet) will NOT be raised at the Second Coming. They will be "the rest of the dead" who do "NOT LIVE AGAIN" until the 1000 years of the 7th millennium are finished.

Daniel 12:1-2

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many [not all] of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, SOME to everlasting life, AND SOME to shame and everlasting contempt.

Everlasting contempt is for forever judgment. There is no coming back from "everlasting contempt".

In context Jesus was speaking to Jews (in covenant people) in John 5:28-29. I think it feasible to understand that he is saying that ALL Israelites (who have entered into covenant) will be raised on that DAY. I don't believe His statement regarding that "DAY" has to include every human being who ever lived.

Else why would Rev. 20 say that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished".

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

You are proposing there are people whom you call "The ignorant (therefore not righteous or wicked because they have not made a choice yet)" and therefore you concluded they "will NOT be raised at the Second Coming".

But it appears Scripture tells us a different story. It says that starting from Creation what can be known about Him He already made known to EVERYONE, thereby making EACH ONE accountable:

Quote:

NKJV Romans 1:

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.

25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Scriptures further say those without the law have a law written in their heart:

Quote:

NKJV Romans 2:

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts ...

The above verses seem to tell us there are no people ignorant of what God wills for each of us individually.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest), and Greetings LifeHiscost,

Quote:

I don't believe that Messiah will set up His kingdom on earth, reigning from Jerusalem when He returns in glory. I believe the redeemed must be removed from this earth because the earth is about to be "burned up".

The terms “burned up” and “refreshing” are opposites. Acts 3:19-21 speaks of “refreshing” and “restoration” at the return of Jesus, not “destruction” and “burned up”.

Quote:

If EVERY mountain and island is "moved out of its place" - that is an earthquake on the order of a 12. We've never known such an earthquake. EVERY fault the world over will move. If EVERY mountain will be flattened, then the Mount of Olives, and the Temple Mount will also be flattened.

Please note that you are quoting from part of the detail of the 6th Seal:

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV): 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Verses 15-17 do not indicate immediate and complete destruction. The language is based on Isaiah 2:10-22 and these verses are a contrast between Isaiah 2:1-4. There appears to have been a partial fulfillment of Isaiah 2 with the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, but as with many prophecies they also depict a greater fulfillment relating to Jesus.

Zechariah 14 speaks of this great literal earthquake that will occur at the return of Jesus. Zechariah compares this earthquake with the one in Uzziah’s day.

Zechariah 14:3-5 (KJV): 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah in the above speaks of the effect of the earthquake upon the Mount of Olives:

In contrast Zechariah 14 states that Jerusalem and hence Mount Zion will be the centre of Divine worship during the Kingdom as quoted in my previous Post. Isaiah 2 also indicates that Mount Zion will be elevated not flattened:

Isaiah 2:2 (KJV): And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Ezekiel 40-48 speaks of the Temple that will be built at Jerusalem shortly after the judgements at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ from Heaven at the beginning of the 1000 years.

Quote:

There is a Psalm where David said the LORD will uncover the foundations of the earth. If all seawater is vaporized into outer space, then the bottom of the oceans would be exposed. There would be "no more sea".

You have a vivid imagination and do not seem to allow for poetical and partly figurative language.

Quote:

Jeremiah wrote that he "saw the earth" after the "great day of the LORD" and "it was without form and void" (Jer. 4:23-26). Those are the same words used in Genesis 1, before the LORD created anything. If this earth will be "without form and void", it is hard for me to believe that any human being will be living here - much less teaching the nations.

The first application of this language was with the judgements upon Judah by Babylon. Yes, there was great destruction at that time, but Judah returned 70 years later. Again you do not seem to allow for poetical and partly figurative language.

Jeremiah 4:23-29 (KJV): 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

Jeremiah 46:27-28 (KJV): 27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid. 28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

The above is a response to the first part of your earlier Post. I hope to consider more fully the second part, but I have not had time as yet. Some of this second part seems to me obscure at first glance. Also I hope to browse your book as this may clarify some of this second part. A few quick responses to additional Posts in this thread:

I absolutely agree that there will be mortal human beings (whole nations of them) on this earth AFTER the Second Coming. They are governed by the priesthood. They come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles - or refuse to come. Some come up to learn the ways of the LORD. Others do not.

I just place the timeline differently.

I believe these people will sleep in death during the 7th millennium. (They are NOT raised at the Second Coming.) They are resurrected ("live again") AFTER the 1000 years - which would put the activity described by Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah, Jeremiah - in the 8th millennium. The "8th day".

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I do not believe that the faithful will go to heaven at death or at the 2nd Coming of Christ, despite the popular assessment of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 and John 14:2-4.

I'm uncertain at your conclusion that these Scriptures can be discounted so easily.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Would you please differentiate the kingdom of God that Jesus talked about from the kingdom you said God will set up after the Second Coming?

Quote:

"The Kingdom of Heaven (Space, that is, or, the Stars) is at hand."

Jesus and John the Baptist were informing their listeners when they spoke this phrase that beings from the Kingdom of YHVH were physically not far away, monitoring the events taking place while Jesus was carrying out his mission on Earth. Because Jesus, especially, was telepathically connected via Spirit to YHVH, his father, he knew men's thoughts and important events that would soon take place.

That's why humans cannot keep secrets from YHVH, because he can read our minds in real time like an open book using Spirit. Our feeble attempts at "prayer" only foreshadow the two-way communication that will take place in the Kingdom.

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And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

And so it was, upon the "mount" of transfiguration, that Peter, James and John shook in their boots (sandals) when YHVH spoke to them from his presence, shrouded in the thick clouds overhead.

[Aliensanctuary]

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If the image represented a succession of nations, and pagan ROME was represented by the legs of iron, then the kingdom represented by the "stone" was not set up at the time of pagan ROME. The stone didn't hit the legs.

The whole image (head to feet) will be destroyed by the stone, at the Second Coming.

After that - the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that will last forever.

That's why I believe that the Four Weeeee Little Beastie Kingdoms of the Past only foreshadow the Four Beastly Monster Superpower Kingdoms of the Last Days, all muscled up on steroids. These Four Superpower Monster Worldwide Destructo Kingdoms will indeed be annihilated by the armies of the LORD because they refused to stop killing the LORD's chosen, and, they refused to submit to the rule of YHVH.

[JoeMo]

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The above verses seem to tell us there are no people ignorant of what God wills for each of us individually.

If I were writing this statement, I would say that:

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The above verses seem to tell us no one need be ignorant of what God wills for each of us individually.

In today's world, not everyone has the opportunity to see God's working in nature. In the crime, drug, disease, and violence infested inner cities of our planet, there are those who will never see God's beauty in nature; and are only taught pain, fear, and intimidation ther whole lives.

Your verses may explain how people may know God, but where in nature do they see Christ? If indeed Jesus is the only Name under heaven by which we may be saved, how do people who never heard of Him be saved? I believe that God will provide the opportunity for all mankind to learn of His Son and the undo the warping done by ignorance and false religious doctrine.

[8thdaypriest]

I believe the Kingdom of God came "with power" when Christ was glorified and poured out His Spirit upon His waiting disciples. Sons and daughters prophesied. Miracles of healing and speaking, and hearing took place.

It came "with power" - but not in literal physical presence. We do not yet "see Him" with our eyes.

We are still harassed by the presence and power of evil. From THIS we have not yet been "saved".

Living things still DIE. This planet is dieing.

[Samie]

Hi Bro JoeMo;

In today's world, not everyone has the opportunity to see God's working in nature. In the crime, drug, disease, and violence infested inner cities of our planet, there are those who will never see God's beauty in nature; and are only taught pain, fear, and intimidation ther whole lives.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LifeHiscost and Rachel,

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I do not believe that the faithful will go to heaven at death or at the 2nd Coming of Christ, despite the popular assessment of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 and John 14:2-4.

I'm uncertain at your conclusion that these Scriptures can be discounted so easily.

Have you considered that the Father’s House is used to denote the Temple at Jerusalem and also the believers Hebrews 4. It is not speaking of God’s dwelling place in Heaven or any “mansions” there.

Rachel, I have briefly considered the 2nd half of your earlier Post and browsed your book “The 8th Day”. My assessment so far is that you have been influenced by two main prophetic concepts, the idea that Jesus will burn up the earth when he returns based possibly on your SDA background, and the idea that Jesus will reign on the earth during the Millenium. Somehow you have combined the two into an amalgam, and with this mixture you have added a few unique ideas of your own, by shifting the 7th Millenium to the 8th and having nearly all mankind on probation again during this 8th Millenium. I cannot agree with this mixture and feel that the Scripture does not support your view and the amalgam when closely examined will fall apart. I could ask many questions and make many comments. Perhaps one question: How do you understand 1 Corinthians 15:20-28? I would prefer to continue to draw attention to the rule of Christ upon the earth for the 7th Millenium, for example Psalm 72. Psalm 72 is another prophecy that is consistent with the prophetic framework of Acts 3:19-21, Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2.

Psalm 72 - The Coming New World Order Soon to be Established on Earth

Psalm 72 (KJV - with headings added)

A Psalm for Solomon

The King's Son

1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son.

2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

The Blessings of His Reign

4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

A World-Wide Kingdom

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

The Nations Pay Homage

10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.

15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.

The Earth Bountiful

16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.

17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

The Whole World Filled with His Glory

18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.

19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

This final public prayer of David, although addressed to Solomon, looks beyond his time to the greater son of David, Jesus Christ, who will return to establish his kingdom on earth, replacing the present kingdoms of men Daniel 2:44. Luke records the words that Gabriel spake to Mary concerning Jesus' future rule

Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jesus will reign over the "house of Jacob" when he returns and "turns away ungodliness from Jacob" Romans 11:26.

The promises made to David concerning his son and David's throne are recorded in 2 Samuel 7:12-16. They state also that God would be his Father, and this is shown in its fulfillment in Luke 1:35, Jesus is the Son of God. This is an essential qualification for Jesus to be heir over God's dominion, God's kingdom, not only because he is God's Son by birth, but he revealed all the qualities of God's wisdom and love during his ministry, suffering and crucifixion. These qualities now coupled with all that he has received in his resurrection and exaltation are what is needed to fulfil Psalm 72 in the Coming New World Order Genesis 1:26, Psalm 8:6, Matthew 11:25-30, 21:37-38, 42-44, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards

Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

Blessings TrevorL,

Psalm 72 is indeed beautiful and full of hope. I place it at the 8th millennium, NOT the 7th.

Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God. That City is the New Jerusalem. I believe we will ascend to that City when we are rescued from this earth. There we will prepare to serve as priests under Christ to govern the nations who will be raised AFTER the 1000 years are finished.

The "two witnesses" are killed. Their bodies lie in the street of Jerusalem. Then they are resurrected, when they hear "a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'come up here.' "And they ascended TO HEAVEN in a cloud, and their enemies saw them." Immediately the 7th trumpet sounds.

I believe the "two witnesses" are Smyrna and Philadelphia - the only two lamps still burning after the others are removed because they refuse to repent. Smyrna represents the martyrs, and Philadelphia represents those who exhibit brotherly love. These are the witnesses in the very last days. It could be that they will literally be "killed", or it could be that a death decree will be issued against them 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet sounds.

My point is that they are REMOVED from this earth.

The "true Tabernacle" (Temple - Father's House) is "Heaven itself" (Heb. 9:4).

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Sis Rachel;

You are proposing there are people whom you call "The ignorant (therefore not righteous or wicked because they have not made a choice yet)" and therefore you concluded they "will NOT be raised at the Second Coming".

But it appears Scripture tells us a different story. It says that starting from Creation what can be known about Him He already made known to EVERYONE, thereby making EACH ONE accountable:

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NKJV Romans 1:

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.

25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Scriptures further say those without the law have a law written in their heart:

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NKJV Romans 2:

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts ...

The above verses seem to tell us there are no people ignorant of what God wills for each of us individually.

I wanted to comment on Romans 2.

I believe Paul is speaking of non-Hebrew BELIEVERS (not humankind in general). They "show the work of the law written in their hearts". This is the New Covenant promise. Only Christ can write His law on our hearts. The only way these people COULD evidence "the law written on their hearts" is IF they now belong to Christ. I don't think Paul is talking about ALL people everywhere. He is specifically talking about Gentile CONVERTS. They do not "have the law" in the same sense that the Jews did - being taught from childhood. They have it in the New Covenant sense.

And regarding Romans 1,

There are still infants, children and mentally handicapped. They CANNOT understand "the things of God" - no matter how much evidence you show them.

To say their names are already in the Book of Life, therefore they will be delivered and given immortality - to me seems unjust. They have never CHOSEN to serve the LORD. Their choice has not been tested, so that other human beings may judge them by their works. To give them a "free pass" into the Kingdom simply because they have not consciously rebelled seems unjust.

One fellow at this forum (I think) said that God will judge them based upon the sins which HE knows they WOULD HAVE committed IF they had lived on. Based on this judgment the LORD will either admit or reject them. I can't buy that argument either.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

..

The above verses seem to tell us there are no people ignorant of what God wills for each of us individually.

I wanted to comment on Romans 2.

I believe Paul is speaking of non-Hebrew BELIEVERS (not humankind in general). They "show the work of the law written in their hearts". This is the New Covenant promise. Only Christ can write His law on our hearts. The only way these people COULD evidence "the law written on their hearts" is IF they now belong to Christ. I don't think Paul is talking about ALL people everywhere. He is specifically talking about Gentile CONVERTS. They do not "have the law" in the same sense that the Jews did - being taught from childhood. They have it in the New Covenant sense.