Prophetic Framework Acts 3, Isaiah 2, Daniel 2

[TrevorL]

The following prophecies are also consistent with the prophetic framework of Acts 3:19-21, Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2.

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Here is a prophecy that relates mainly to AD70, when the Romans encamped against Jerusalem and overthrew it and destroyed the Temple. Verse 24 speaks of the captivity of the Jews and that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. This dominance of the Gentiles over the land of Judah and Jerusalem and their power over the Jews was to continue until the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled. Without going into detail, the overall period called “the times of the Gentiles” commenced with the Babylonian overthrow of Judah and Jerusalem until the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon earth. This period corresponds to the Image of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, until the Stone destroys the Kingdoms of men and replaces it with the Kingdom of God on earth.

The prophet Joel uses language that helps to fill in some aspects of the overall picture:

Joel 3:1-3 (KJV): 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

Joel 3:9-14 (KJV): 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

This is a remarkable prophecy that predicts that God will bring again the captivity of the Jews, thus reversing what occurred in AD70. Judah was brought again from captivity in 1948 and Jerusalem in 1967. Some time after this it speaks of the nations preparing war, and this uses the terms of Isaiah 2:1-4, but here the nations are making ready for war and not agriculture. Isaiah 2:1-4 depict the aftermath of these events, when the nations are overthrown. This result is also mentioned in v11 where the Divine intervention is mentioned.

The prophet Ezekiel also speaks of the regathering of the Jews to the land of Israel, and a similar event of warfare by many nations:

Ezekiel 38:8-12 (KJV): 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

This prophecy of Ezekiel 38-39 clearly depicts the present return of the Jews to the Holy Land; their return without accepting Jesus as Messiah; the invasion of their land from the north by a confederacy of nations; the Divine intervention and the conversion of the remnant of the Jews in the land. Ezekiel 40-48 then describes the building of the Temple at Jerusalem and the restoration of divine worship.

In summary, the following Scriptures have been considered, and these help to understand some of the detail in the prophetic framework of Acts 3:19-21, Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2:

In this Post: Luke 21:20-24, Joel 3:1-3, 9-14, Ezekiel 38:8-12 and a brief mention of Ezekiel 38-39, 40-48.

Another Post: Daniel 2:37-38, Psalm 72:7-8, Zechariah 9:9-10, 2 Timothy 4:1, Daniel 2:25,44 compared with Matthew 21:44.

Another Post: Luke 1:30-33, Micah 4:1-3, 6-8, Matthew 19:28, Zechariah 14:8-9, 16-17.

Another Post: Revelation 6:12-17 compared with Isaiah 2:10-22, Zechariah 14:3-5, Jeremiah 4:23-29, 46:27-28.

Another Post: Psalm 72: 1-20.

Kind regards

Trevor

[TrevorL]

There are many Scriptural themes that bind together the prophetic framework of Acts 3:19-21, Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2 and some of the prophetic detail already considered. These all contribute towards an understanding of the complete picture.

Mention was made earlier that the word “Kingdom” implies a “King” and his “Dominion”. The word “dominion” occurs in the following:

Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Adam and Eve were to be given dominion over the rest of the natural creation. This at first does not seem to be a dominion over the land, nor does it seem to imply that Adam and Eve will act as King and Queen, ruling over their descendants.

David in Psalm 8 quotes and alludes to the Genesis record of the creation, and the creation of Adam and Eve and their intended role:

Psalm 8:1-9 (KJV): A Psalm of David.

1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben.

There are a number of remarkable features of this Psalm. Verse 4 speaks of “man” and “the son of man”, and then quotes and alludes to Genesis 1:26-28. Once again it speaks of dominion over the works of God’s creation, the works of God’s hands, and again there is a list of these creatures that occupy the land, sea and air. But there is more in Psalm 8 than simply an echo of the Adamic creation. The Psalm also indicates the fall, the introduction of sin, because verse 2 speaks of “the enemy and the avenger”. Also verse 4 speaks of the son of man being “visited” and verse 5 he is “crowned with glory and honour”. We are not left in any doubt as to the meaning of these terms because many aspects of this Psalm are expounded in the New Testament and applied specifically to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul in Hebrews 2 quotes from Psalm 8 and draws a number of conclusions:

Hebrews 2:5-10 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Paul uses Psalm 8 to teach that the Age to Come will be subjected under Jesus, and as such he will fulfill what was intended for Adam and Eve in creation. His kingdom and dominion will be over the earth, and all mankind upon the earth.

Paul also quotes and applies Psalm 8 in the following:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV): 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This speaks of the coming of Christ, then the duration of the kingdom, then the end of this reign when Jesus will return the kingdom to God, after he has subjected all things, “all rule and authority and power” and then even death itself will be destroyed. This speaks of the reign of Jesus upon the earth for the 1000 years. When this period is complete then Jesus will submit to God the Father, and hand the kingdom back to the Father, so that God may be all in all.

Kind regards

Trevor

[hch]

TrevorL,

I have been reading your posts with interest. Your understanding that follows is also interesting. But too massive to reply to. should I reply to each part, you would be overwhelmed and think me a spammer. In my zeal to communicate to another brother in Jesus on this form, I did that and we hardly ever correspond now. So with your understanding and permission, I would focus on a few points in your original post and keep it simple (for the) saints.

The aim of this thread is to briefly consider a few prophecies and establish a framework of understanding.

[TrevorL]

Greetings hch (Henry),

So with your understanding and permission, I would focus on a few points in your original post and keep it simple (for the) saints.

Originally Posted By: TrevorL

The aim of this thread is to briefly consider a few prophecies and establish a framework of understanding.

From the onset, this task will be EXTREMELY difficult because most everyone has preconceived ideas. And human nature tends to try to prove what we believe.

OTOH: true Bible study sets aside beliefs that we cherish and accepts a thus saith the Lord and then compares those pet beliefs to the Bible study. If they agree with the WORD they survive the study and if they do not they get trashed.

Most folks don't reach that level of dedication to God in their Bible study life. In their zeal they hold to their conclusions and look for Scriptures that fit their framework.

[hch]

Perhaps you do not like the term “framework of understanding”, but it was used as a starting point to discuss an overall picture of Bible prophecy, starting with a few passages that seem to summarise that picture.

[Samie]

Quote:

... true Bible study sets aside beliefs that we cherish and accepts a thus saith the Lord and then compares those pet beliefs to the Bible study. If they agree with the WORD they survive the study and if they do not they get trashed.

Most folks don't reach that level of dedication to God in their Bible study life. In their zeal they hold to their conclusions and look for Scriptures that fit their framework.

...

Am I alone who believes in the first paragraph and exclude myself in the second?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Am I alone who believes in the first paragraph and exclude myself in the second?

I would like to think that I am excluded from the 2nd paragraph; but I know that I harbor "pet beliefs". I also know that I can argue both sides of certain "pet" topics which I have yet to incorporate into my personal "inviolate" set of beliefs. I know there are certain issues that some people obsess over that aren't even on my radar.

In short, I would like to think myself as exempt from the second paragraph; but if I'm totally honest with myself, I'm not.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

In their zeal they hold to their conclusions and look for Scriptures that fit their framework....

Is that the gift of discernment I detect, or am I missing something?

"Love...is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its' hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]."1 Cor 13:7 AMP bold mine LHC

God cares! Jesus saves!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again hch (Henry) and others,

You raise an interesting point: “private interpretation” vs " the prophet’s own understanding"

[hch]

Greetings again hch (Henry) and others,

Originally Posted By: hch

You raise an interesting point: “private interpretation” vs "the prophet’s own understanding"

In the context of 2 Peter 1:19-21 I believe that Peter is speaking of "the prophet’s own understanding".

Originally Posted By: (HCH)

Re: “private interpretation” vs "the prophet’s own understanding"

The prophet gets it right.

BUT Will the hearer or reader get it right?

I was interested in your treatise, including Daniel’s position. Yes, we need to seek the correct understanding from the Word of God, and be prepared to abandon some of our earlier conclusions. The difference between “private interpretation” vs "the prophet’s own understanding" in regard to 2 Peter 1:19-21 does not affect Daniel’s position. 1 Peter 1 :19-21 is speaking of the origination of the message, not whether they fully understood what they spoke and wrote. It is also true of all the prophets that they searched for a greater understanding of the message concerning Christ, given to them by the Holy Spirit, that they had themselves spoken or written:

1 Peter 1:10-12 (KJV): 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Kind regards

Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again hch (Henry),

I appreciate your latest response, but I am a bit confused as to what you are claiming. Possibly what I have stated concerning 2 Peter 1:20-21 is a bit unclear. We seem to view the term “private interpretation” in 2 Peter 1:20-21 differently.

In a recent Post the following was stated: “There are many Scriptural themes that bind together the prophetic framework of Acts 3:19-21, Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2 and some of the prophetic detail already considered. These all contribute towards an understanding of the complete picture.”

Another important theme is the promise made concerning Eve and the serpent, the promises to Abraham and to David. Each of these is closely linked. The promise or promises to Abraham expand on what was spoken concerning Eve, and the promise or promises to David add additional detail and complement those to Abraham and Eve.

Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Although men are bitten on the heel by serpents or snakes, and men crush the head of serpents, this has a larger lesson concerning the conflict between the spiritual seed of the woman and those who follow the serpent and his teaching. This is further defined throughout Scripture as Jesus’ suffering at the hand of sinners, resulting in his death, but God gave him victory over death by his resurrection. Jesus’ is still continuing to overcome the serpent and the effects of the transgression in Eden. In a previous Post Psalm 8 and 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 were considered where Jesus is yet to subdue all things unto himself. The last enemy, introduced as a result of the serpent’s reasoning, that Jesus is yet to overcome is death itself. Daniel 2 is another picture of the conflict between the serpent’s seed and the woman’s seed, the kingdoms of men and the kingdom of God.

There are many promises made to Abraham, and the following are only a selection:

Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV): 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

In an earlier Post Micah 4:6-8 was quoted and this speaks of the restoration of natural Israel to become a strong nation and becoming the first dominion of the Kingdom of God. This corresponds to the promise in Genesis 12:2 that God would make of Abraham a great nation. This will occur after the return of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven when he will set up his kingdom on earth. The last phrase in verse 3, the blessing of all nations in Abraham, also speaks of the Kingdom to be established when Jesus returns, when the Gentile nations will also be subdued and made part of God’s Kingdom upon earth for the 1000 years. Both natural Israel and the Gentiles will be mortal during the 1000 years, but sickness and disease will be greatly reduced, and longevity will be the norm, consider Isaiah 65:17-25, especially v20.

Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

The promise of the land is made to Abraham and his seed for ever, and this implies that Abraham and his seed will be immortal, unlike the Jews and Gentiles mentioned previously. Please note the one direction that Abraham is not to look for his inheritance is towards heaven. The Apostle Paul defines who is Abaham’s seed, and thus who will inherit the Blessing of forgiveness and immortality and the Land.

Galatians 3:16 (KJV): Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thus the believers of this present era together with Christ and Abraham will inherit the Blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, including the land that Abraham looked at, north, south, east and west from where he was standing.

The promises to David were briefly considered earlier and Luke 1:30-33 was quoted and 2 Samuel 7:12-16 was mentioned. Psalm 72 was also considered and this depicts the Kingdom of God when Jesus will reign on the throne of David in Jerusalem. At the present time Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, and Jesus promises that the believer will in the future share the throne of David with Jesus:

Revelation 3:21 (KJV): To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 5:9-10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV): Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The promises to Eve, Abraham and David all speak of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. Natural Israel will be converted, and the nations subdued and blessed, and those in this era who have believed the gospel of the Kingdom and the Name and have been baptised will be kings and priests to these mortal nations with Jesus for the 1000 years.

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

I have quit following this topic because the posts are far too long to absorb and respond to.

[Bert]

The context of Daniel 2:44 that concerns the 'kingdom of God' is an extension of the preceding verses, and which are necessary to understand in order to establish the 'time frame' of the establishment of God's kingdom.

The preceding verses provide Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the 'great image'. As Daniel unfolds the dream in sequential order from a futuristic/prophetic standpoint you arrive at verse 43, which provides the time frame for the correct contextual meaning of verse 44. Verse 43 addresses the part of the image that symbolizes the ten toes of the 'great image'...the ten kingdoms (also referred to as horns), or nations, that arise out of the dissolution of the pagan Roman Empire. As the prophecies tell us, three of these nations (also horns) were 'plucked out' and replaced by a 'little horn', which can only be the symbol of papal Rome...the power that replaced pagan Rome in that area of the world.

The seven remaining nations (horns) are still in existence, and it is within this context that verse 44 says: "And in the days of these kings (today and future) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom (since the first part of the verse addresses the current age as well, then it will apply to the age soon to come when Jesus returns at His second coming) which shall never be destroyed (a reference to the New Jerusalem and the rest of the world after the millennial period and the cleansing of the earth and sin is abolished by fire).

The reference in verse 44 that says...'but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms' will fulfill that part of the prophecy of the 'great image' that describes the 'stone cut out of the mountain breaking the great image in pieces' in verse 45, representing the final dissolution of earthly kingdoms.

[hch]

I have quit following this topic because the posts are far too long to absorb and respond to.

I have to agree with you JoeMo.

I tried to keep it simple for the saints, and bypass many of the different branches that this framework is taking, but it is moving like a steam roller. Introducing so many ideas without studying anything in-depth. I don't have the time to try to sort it all out.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again hch (Henry) and Greetings JoMoe and Bert,

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

I have quit following this topic because the posts are far too long to absorb and respond to.

I have to agree with you JoeMo. I tried to keep it simple for the saints, and bypass many of the different branches that this framework is taking, but it is moving like a steam roller. Introducing so many ideas without studying anything in-depth. I don't have the time to try to sort it all out.

[Samie]

Quote:

Earlier the main respondents were 8thdaypriest and Samie and as far as I can assess they both have views differing from the SDA position. I would prefer to discuss this subject with SDAs who hold the normal view.

Choosy? This sends me feelers that he wants to instruct instead of discuss. But I respect his choosiness.

[Bert]

The seven remaining nations (horns) are still in existence, and it is within this context that verse 44 says: "And in the days of these kings (today and future) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom (since the first part of the verse addresses the current age as well, then it will apply to the age soon to come when Jesus returns at His second coming) which shall never be destroyed (a reference to the New Jerusalem and the rest of the world after the millennial period and the cleansing of the earth and sin is abolished by fire).

[Samie]

Chronology of Events until the 2nd Coming, as per our Master Teacher (see Matt 24:14-31):

1. Worldwide preaching of the everlasting gospel, the gospel Paul preached, the gospel that is God's power for salvation of BELIEVERS now and the same gospel that is God's power for salvation of those who never heard Jesus.

2. Setting up of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, or the image of the beast

3. Great Tribulation, or Time of Trouble, triggered by the setting up of the image of the beast. God will shorten the period of occurrence of the great tribulation for the sake of the elect who are to remain alive until the 2nd Coming.

4. Unusual celestial phenomena - solar eclipse by day followed by lunar eclipse at night, meteoric swarm unparalleled in scope and splendor, shaking of heavenly powers - an allusion to global catastrophy caused by nature's forces.

5. Second Coming

[TrevorL]

Greetings Samie and genesis7 (Joe), and Greetings again Bert:

Bert: I appreciate your response and I would like to answer what you have Posted. This may take a few days or more. On reading your Post though I may find this difficult as you seem to state many of the SDA views and these are based upon many deductions that may be historical in your community. I do have a reasonable amount of SDA books and literature and have had contact with SDAs at work and elsewhere over the years. So I will try to more fully understand from these sources what you have stated. I have the following books and literature if you or any one else wants to quote an explanatory page or paragraph in the course of any discussion. I have not studied or read fully the following books:

The Prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation By Uriah Smith 1944

SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine 1957

SDAs Believe – A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines 1988 (now 28 in later editions?)

The Desire of Ages; The Great Controversy by Ellen G White (I have seen her house preserved at Coorangbong, near the large SDA complex – University, Schools and Churches). This is near to where I worked and there were a number of SDAs who I respected for their sincerity.

I completed the Prophetic Code Correspondence Course in 2009 and have a copy of all my submissions to the course and the responses from the tutor(s). Most of this material was not in depth, and as a result this did not alter my overall view sufficiently, though some of it was beneficial to help my understanding of some Scriptures.

Quote:

Earlier the main respondents were 8thdaypriest and Samie and as far as I can assess they both have views differing from the SDA position. I would prefer to discuss this subject with SDAs who hold the normal view.

Choosy? This sends me feelers that he wants to instruct instead of discuss. But I respect his choosiness.

[Samie]

If I had time I could discuss your views, but my main aim in this thread was to discuss whether the 1000 years will be on earth or be in heaven while the earth is burned for this duration.

[Bert]

Scriptures EXPLICITLY say the millennial reign of the saints with Christ is here on earth:

Quote:

NKJ Revelation 5:

9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

Quote:

That the earth is burned during the 1000 years is Biblically untenable, because this earth will be the camping site of the saints for 1000 years. Here's the chronology of events at the 2nd Coming and beyond:

1. General Resurrection of the dead, both righteous & wicked. Dan 12:1,2; John 5:28, 29.

..... a. The saints will be resurrected first (1 Thess 4:16). This is the first resurrection in the order of events (Rev 20:5).

..... b. The wicked rises next. With all dead resurrected (Acts 24:15) and with those who remained alive till the 2nd Coming, every eye will see Him come in the clouds (Rev 1:7), each one present to receive his own reward as Christ promised that when He comes He will reward each one according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12).[/quote']

You are correct in saying that the earth will not burn for a 1000 years, for that is completely non-biblical, but the comment that 'this earth will be the camping site of the saints for 1000 years is also a misinterpretation of sequential eschatological events due to the following reasons:

a. In the final events just prior to Christ's return, the seven last plagues will be poured out on the earth. Revelation 15:1 says that 'seven angels have the seven last plagues, for in them is the wrath of God'. A study of the seven last plagues in Chapters 15 and 16 are comparative to the seven trumpets of Chapters 8, 9 and 11. The exegesis of these two events are two-fold...the seven trumpets being redemptive in nature, and the seven last plagues being punitive. In Chapter 15:6-8 it tells us that the seven angels prepare to pour out the plagues. Chapter 16 starts with the pouring out of the first plague in verse 2. Each succeeding verse provides an explanation and result of the next plague until you come to the sixth plague in Rev 16:12. Verses 13 and 14 tells us about the 'dragon' (Satan), 'the beast' and the 'false prophet'. (Note: The explanation of these entities is a study within itself, requiring a longer exposition and explanation of their reasons and roles for their activities pointed out in verse 14) As you can see, the earth will not be in any kind of condition to sustain life, especially for millions and millions of people. However, this is not the end of happenings at this particular time.

b. As you see in Rev. 16:15, Christ is giving His final warning that 'He is coming as a thief', and this is followed by the gathering together of those 'kings of the earth' in verse 14 at a place called Armageddon (verse 16). As this occurs, the seventh angel pours out 'his vial into the air and then a great voice is heard coming from the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done'. This is Christ declaring to the heavenly hosts that His work in the heavenly temple is finished as He prepares for His return.

c. Revelation 16, verses 18 thru 21 provides a description of what will transpire on the earth as Jesus prepares to return to this earth. All of this destruction has been wrought on the earth, and Jesus has not come yet, and there is more destruction to occur.

d. 2nd Peter 3:10-12 provides another picture of chaos and destruction to the earth as Christ prepares to return. Also, Paul tells us that the wicked will be 'destroyed with the brightness of His coming'. So my question at this point is how can this earth sustain life for millions and millions of people for a 1000 years in this condition?

I will respond to the remainder of your post tomorrow, for it's late and this 'old man' needs some sleep! One thing to remember in the study of Revelation, and that is one cannot read and understand Revelation as being written in any sequential or chronological format. There are different themes and epistles in Revelation, and they are not to be understood verse-by-verse in order.

God bless,

Bert

[Samie]

Hi Bert;

The wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - is reward for ALL the UNRIGHTEOUS, as life eternal is reward for ALL the RIGHTEOUS (see Rom 2:5-11). If they are pre-advent, then only the wicked alive just before the 2nd coming will experience them while the myriads of other wicked long dead by then since Cain's time are exempted from experiencing the plagues.

Scriptures are crystal-clear. The saints have already FINISHED singing on the sea of glass in heaven (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the vials (Rev 15:5-7) and subsequently commanded to pour out the plagues upon the wicked on earth (Rev 16:1).

Christ Himself said that when He comes again he will reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). That every man had to be rewarded NECESSITATES that every man be present to receive his own reward. This explains why He said that a time is coming when ALL dead - both righteous and wicked - shall hear his voice and come forth (John 5:28, 29). This occurs at the 2nd Coming (Dan 12:1,2). With every one born on this earth alive, every eye will see Him come in the clouds (Rev 1:7), EACH ONE ready to receive his own reward.

[Samie]

Hi Bert;

The 3rd of the 7 last plagues, involves prophet-slayers being made to drink blood. Jesus referred to prophet-slayers (Matt 23:31; Luke 11:47) and they were long dead. The fact that Scriptures portray them drinking blood in the 3rd plague is proof enough they had been resurrected. Placing the timing of the 7 last plagues at a time the prophet-slayers are not yet resurrected is against the plain declaration of Scriptures.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie and Bert,

Scriptures EXPLICITLY say the millennial reign of the saints with Christ is here on earth:

Here's the chronology of events at the 2nd Coming and beyond:

[Samie]

I agree with you Samie that the Kingdom of God will be upon the earth for the 1000 years, but I do not agree with your chronology, nor with much of the detail in Items 1-10. I am interested in assessing your general overall view. Is it called “Futurist”? Do you reflect views that are advocated by some Evangelical or Pentecostal groups? Or are your views unique, or shared by a larger group. Is it connected with Hal Lindsay’s “Left Behind” concepts.

None of the above.

But it can be called the Scriptural view UNTIL proven otherwise.