Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You are demanding that I

be

another God, for that is what it would take to be exactly as perfect as God.

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Again... You have a bad habit!

BTW, I am not demanding it, Christ is!

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[:"blue"]Christ asking us to be another God? What's in the water you are drinking, Robert? [/]

You better do as He says, huh? Or you better figure out the context [like I have done].

Waiting, again.

Rob

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[:"blue"]Robert, let's not profane the sacred with this kind of arguement. [/]

Gerry

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Gerry...you are stalling. Please explain what Christ meant using the Bible! The context is Matthew 5:1-48...and some thereafter. This has everything to do with Romans 7.

Waiting

[Robert]

Some quotes from Matthew chapter 5:

Verse 20: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Verse 30: " And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."

Verses 38,39: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil."

Verses 43,44: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies."

Verse 48: "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

[Robert]

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Robert said:

Gerry...you are stalling. Please explain what Christ meant using the Bible!

The context is Matthew 5:1-48

...and some thereafter. This has everything to do with Romans 7.

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Waiting again....

Rob

[Robert]

Here's how EGW viewed Matt. 5:48:

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Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48....

God

demands perfection

from every human being.

We are to be perfect

in this life of humanity,

[:"red"]even as God is perfect in His divine character.[/]

[TDG, This Day with God, p. 318]

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However, for every view of perfection, EGW seems to have another view of grace:

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Our earthly life [i.e., "in this life of humanity"], however long, honored,

or useful

it may be, is but childhood, frail,

[:"red"]imperfect[:"black"]

, and undeveloped. Manhood,

with its full, perfect

, glorious development,

will come

[future tense], when,

freed from the taint of sin

, we stand among the redeemed throng.

Then [not before] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God

, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge. [The Signs of the Times, 06-09-81]

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[Robert]

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The holy law of God is both brief

and comprehensive

; for it is easily understood and remembered; and yet it is an expression of the will of God. Its comprehensiveness is summed up in the following words: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. . . . Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

[:"red"]"This do, and thou shalt live."[:"black"]

"Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments; which if a man do, he shall live in them; I am the Lord."

[:"red"]"Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.[:"black"]

And all the people shall say, Amen." "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee." [ The Signs of the Times, 09-05-92]

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Take note of the bold, red lettering! Now take note of her grace statement:

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The terms of

the "old covenant"

were, [:"red"]

Obey and live

[:"black"] [compare to, "This do, and thou shalt live"] - "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5);

but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26.

The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises,"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law." [Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 10-17-07]

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Okay...clearly EGW taught that the terms of the "Old Covenant" were "This do, and thou shalt live" or "Obey and live"!

Is the man of Romans 7 obeying perfectly? Remember that before Paul's conversion he was keeping "the letter of the law". As far as that performance went he considered himself "blameless".

However, in Romans 7 we see a man who is failing go beyond the mere letter by keeping the spirit of the law. Under the "Old covenant" Paul would have never made it to heaven.

The question is, what covenant is the man of Romans 7 under? Well let's review EGW's statement above:

"The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises,"--the promise...of the grace of God to renew the heart [mind], and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law."

Was the man of Romans 7’s mind/heart renewed? Let’s see:

• Rom 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

  How does the immediate context define “in my inner being”?

  Take note: verse 23: but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

  The man of Romans 7’s mind delights in God’s law because it is written on the heart. David says the same thing: “I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart” [Ps 40:8]

  So when EGW says that God “renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of [His] law” she is speaking of a man under the New Covenant. This once again proves that the man of Romans 7 is converted and standing in grace.

Rob

[Robert]

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Robert said:

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Robert said:

Gerry...you are stalling. Please explain what Christ meant using the Bible!

The context is Matthew 5:1-48

...and some thereafter. This has everything to do with Romans 7.

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Waiting again....

Rob

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Here's my understanding of Matt 5:48:

According to Matt 4:25, "great multitudes followed Him [Jesus] from Galilee and Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. 5:1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying...."

Whom is Jesus teaching here? Some say just the disciples, but if you go to where Christ finishes His discourse, you will find it was also the great multitudes. Let's go there:

Matt 7:28 The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching....

Anytime one analyzes the context of any given scriptural quote he must also take time and place into consideration! Once we apply this we realize that "the multitudes" were typically Jewish and as a Jew in the days of Christ you were taught that only those who obey the law went to heaven.

So the mentality of the "great multitudes" (including the disciples at that time) was that heaven is only attainable by the keeping of the law!

Was Jesus teaching the same as "the teachers of the law"? No and I'll prove it:

• For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matt 5:20]

Did you catch that? Jesus is basically saying, "Remember what the teachers of the law taught you? Well I am telling you that your law keeping must surpass theirs!"

Now Christ begins to compare the letter of the law to what the spirit of the law requires:

Letter: “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ [verse 21]

Spirit: “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court." [verse 22]

Letter: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; [verse 27]

Spirit: but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. [verse 28]

Jesus continues to do this right up to verse 48 where He sums it all up:

• [:"red"]“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”[:"black"]

Did you get that – how perfect are you to be? What does the context say? “You are to be perfect”…how perfect? As you heavenly Father is perfect!!!

Why was Jesus teaching practically the same thing as that of the teachers of the law? The Jews were already bogged down under the law….It was a yoke of bondage to them. Now Jesus comes along and makes matter even worse by adding the spiritual requirements of the law. What is Jesus doing?

Answer: The same thing He did at mount Sinai! The question is why did Christ give the law to a bunch of sinners when He knew that they couldn’t keep it? The problem is they didn’t know they couldn’t keep it!

If you come to Jesus and ask Him what good thing must you do to gain heaven, He will tell you to keep the commandments! Why? To break you of your pride – your ego….He does it to humble you so that you will conclude (as did Paul), [:"red"]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."[:"black"] [Romans 3:28]

For further proof of my conclusions we'll look at the following:

Luke 10:25-29

Matthew 19:16-26

[Robert]

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Note the question - what must I DO to inherit heaven?

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. [:"red"]“Do this and you will live.”[/]

Remember what EGW said? "The terms of the old covenant were, Obey and live...."

Again, Christ is giving this "expert" just what he needs - a reality check! Why? So that he will give up on trying to "inherit" heaven through his good works and accept the righteousness of Christ by faith.

[Robert]

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Robert said:

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Robert said:

Gerry...you are stalling. Please explain what Christ meant using the Bible!

The context is Matthew 5:1-48

...and some thereafter. This has everything to do with Romans 7.

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Waiting again....

Rob

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Ignoring the above doesn't make it go away! Waiting!

[Gerr]

Stalling? I have answered your questions many times already. Weren't you paying attention?

Since you keep bringing up EGW, here is what she has to say about Mt 5:48 in MB.

[:"blue"]"The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden - perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The [:"red"]standard of character presented in the OT is the same that is present in the NT. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. [/] In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become [:"red"] like[/] unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace."

"He tells us to be perfect as He is, [:"red"] in the same manner.[/]We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to [:"red"] reflect [/]its brightness. 'In His borrowed goodness good,' we may be perfect in our sphere even as God is perfect in His."

Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be [:"red"] like [/]Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live live by the life of God. In Christ dwells 'all the fullness of the Godhead bodily' (Col 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest 'in our mortal flesh' (2 Cor 4:`11). [:"red"]That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. [/]Thus you will be in harmony with every precet of His law; for 'the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul.' Ps 19:7, margin. [:"red"]Through love 'the righteousness of the law' will be 'fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' Rom 8:4 [/] MB p. 76-78 [/]

Notice that the terms/condition of eternal life in both the OT & NT are the same. It cannot be otherwise. God cannot be partial and remain righteous. So what was the difference if the conditions were the same in the OT/OC & the NT/NC? It was the way (and remains true also today), the how one goes about fulfilling the terms/conditions.

The nation of Israel in general were [:"blue"] "ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righeousness to everyone who believes." Rom 10:4 NKJ. "For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3,4 NKJ. [/]

The bottomline is really very simple. Unconverted man cannot produce righteousness of any kind except in outward appearance. The converted person is renewed, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and by the Holy Spirit is enabled to render obedience.

The man of R7 is unable to render obedience to righteousness even if he wants to; he is a slave to sin. He cannot help it. But the converted person set free from the slavery of sin is now indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and is able to say "NO" to the demands of the flesh, Gal 5:16.

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob, I just have a minute.

Here in one sentence is what I haveb een trying to get you to see.

"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; 2:3.

Also, God intends the Christian life to be lived in the Spirit. Having saved us and redeemed us from bondage, guilt and punishment of sin, God does not leave us to live life on our own.

He sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in all who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. The Holy Spirit makes real in our experience that which God has already obtained in the life of Christ. The Holy Spirit reveals, and delievers the Gospel. Having convicted us of the good news of salvation in Christ The Holy Spirit now comes and dwells within. Through the Spirit, we gain a power, a strength against sin's dominion.

Norman

[Gerr]

Here is something else that she says.

There are two errors against which the children of God - particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace - especially need to guard. The first already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mereoutward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of live, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in the minds will I write them." Heb 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience - the service and allegiance of love - is the true sign of discipleship......Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. SC 59-61

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Stalling? I have answered your questions many times already. Weren't you paying attention?

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No, you haven't addressed the context of Matt. 5:17-48! It ends by saying,

• "Therefore you are to be perfect, [how perfect?] as your heavenly Father is perfect."

According to context this is a salvation issue: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Instead of giving Bible evidence, you turn to Ellen White. Why? You can't think for yourself! So you quote her as saying, "We may be perfect in our sphere even as God is perfect in His."

The problem with that answer is that Matt 5:48 doesn't say that!!!! It states that "YOU must be perfect, AS your heavenly Father is perfect."

Waiting again,

Robert

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Stalling? I have answered your questions many times already. Weren't you paying attention?

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No, you haven't addressed the context of Matt. 5:17-48! It ends by saying,

• "Therefore you are to be perfect, [how perfect?] as your heavenly Father is perfect."

According to context this is a salvation issue: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Instead of giving Bible evidence, you turn to Ellen White. Why? You can't think for yourself!

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[:"blue"]Ahem!!! Listen to you calling the kettle black!!! You quote her freely even when I have asked you to refrain from doing so several times because you use her words only when they suit you and then claim she contradicts herself when she does not agree with you. [/]

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So you quote her as saying,

"We may be perfect in our sphere even as God is perfect in His."

The problem with that answer is that Matt 5:48 doesn't say that!!!! It states that "YOU must be perfect, AS your heavenly Father is perfect."

Waiting again,

Robert

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[:"blue"]If you want to play games, play by yourself.

[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You quote her freely even when I have asked you to refrain from doing so several times because you use her words only when they suit you

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I use her to back up what I say from the Bible....You use her when you can't figure it out from the Bible!

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If you want to play games, play by yourself.

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Please answer my question pertaining to Matt 5:48. Thanks!

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You quote her freely even when I have asked you to refrain from doing so several times because you use her words only when they suit you

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I use her to back up what I say from the Bible....You use her when you can't figure it out from the Bible!

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If you want to play games, play by yourself.

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Please answer my question pertaining to Matt 5:48. Thanks!

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[:"blue"]For the nth time here is my answer again. You are interpreting Mt 5:48 to mean that Jesus is asking as to be exact copies or reproductions of God. I have told you before that that would be an unreasonable demand from a just God because no creature can never be exactly like its creator.

Perhaps Paul can shed some light on what Jesus is saying by what he says in Rom 8:29: "For whom he foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." NKJ.

"conformed" [summorphos - means having the same form as another, or could mean similar. Paul could not possibly mean the first sense for the reason I stated earlier, i.e. no creature could possibly have the exact same form as the creator, which you are trying to force Mt 5:48 to mean exactly that, whereas I am saying that Jesus is telling us to be perfect in similar manner as God is perfect. "Similar" per Webster means: nearly but NOT exactly the same or alike; having a resemblance. Then it gives an example in geometry where one can have several figures having the same shape, but not the same size or position. So to me, Mt. 5:48 is an expression in relative terms and not absolute. We can all have a resemblance, a similarity, to our Heavenly Father, but we can never be exact representations of Him. Never.

Here is how other translations render Rom 8:29.

"For God knew His people in advance, and He chose them to become like His Son." NLT.

"To be conformed to the likeness of His Son." NIV

Here is another text, 2 Cor 3:18.

"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image [eikon - likeness, figure] from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." NKJ.

"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." NIV

Again, the thought is a likeness, a resemblancle, a reflection, and not an exact copy or representation. Therefore, we can be perfect in our own human sphere as God is perfect in His own divine sphere.

And one more text, Eph 5:1:

"Therefore be imitators[mimetes - mimicker] of God as dear children." NKJ.

"You are God's children whom He loves, so try to be like Him." NCV

"Follow God's example in everything you do, because you are His dear children." NLT

"Watch what God does, and then you do it, like children who learn proper behavior from their parents." The Message. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You quote her freely even when I have asked you to refrain from doing so several times because you use her words only when they suit you

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I use her to back up what I say from the Bible....You use her when you can't figure it out from the Bible!

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If you want to play games, play by yourself.

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Please answer my question pertaining to Matt 5:48. Thanks!

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For the nth time here is my answer again....Rom 8:29....2 Cor 3:18.....Eph 5:1.

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They might be answers in your mind, but they are not within the context of Matt 5:48! If you are going to explain what Matt 5:48 means, then stay within its context!

Waiting again for the nth time....

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So to me, Mt. 5:48 is an expression in relative terms and not absolute.

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But it doesn't say that Gerry....You are being dishonest! It plainly states that you must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect! Why are you watering down the commands of Jesus? Can you not do as He says?

The context of "perfection" in Matthew chapter five is not about His creative power or His omniscience...nor His immortality. The context is, "unless your righteousness"....So Jesus is saying, "You must be righteous, just as your heavenly Father is righteous."

Luke chapter 6 mirrors Matt 5....Let's look at this:

Luke 6:27 But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you….

Matt 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you....

Luke 6:29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.

Matt 5:40 Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Matt 5:42 Give to him who asks of you…

Luke 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that.

Matt 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies [how?], do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

To be “perfect” is to be “merciful” just as your Father is merciful!

When is the last time that you lent a large sum of money out expecting no repayment? If you did that often, how long would it be until you became homeless? Hmmm....

When is the last time that someone beat you…punched you and you didn’t respond with deadly force or call the police?

When is the last time that you didn’t resist an evil person trying to do you damage?

When is the last time that someone forcefully took some of your possessions and you offered him other possessions also?

That’s being merciful! Fighting back, calling the police to get your goodies back and demanding full payment [with interest] is being demanding and self-center, i.e., according to God. In other words giving up your comforts…giving up your goodies for your enemies is loving like God loves! Are you perfect as God is perfect? If not you better get busy….

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob, Happy Sabbath.

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But it doesn't say that Gerry....You are being dishonest! It plainly states that you must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect! Why are you watering down the commands of Jesus? Can you not do as He says?

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I have to jump in here Rob and ask you a question. Why do you still have eyes?

When Jesus is speaking you must take into consideration what he means. When Jesus commands us to be perfect as our Father in heaven He is also letting us know that this is a possiblity. We miss the point if we look at ourselves. This is can only be doen as we come to a full surrender to God as did Jesus, because we love Him and then the Holy Spirit will love through us as does God. You & I can never love like God without a complete surrender of our wills. We do not have that in us, but God has sent His Son that all those who believe in Him should be given the power to become the sons of God. John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God ."

Being a son means being a replica of the Father. If any of us are not revealing the love of God, the simple and plain truth must be stated; we do not have His Spirit guiding us. It is the Spirit the bears fruit, it is the Spirit that gives life (spiritual) and it is the Spirit that takes us along and instills in us the ability to love like God, to be righteous like God and to do His will. Again if that is missing, then the Spirit of God is not the guiding principle in the life. Self has not died, self is in charge and self will shine through.

When will we realize this and stop modifying self and coming up with spiritually enfeebling excuses? When will we trust and love God to the point where we will let His Spirit have complete sway? Why do we insist on being in control when all that leads to is sin and its results which is well known to us and experienced with shame and disgust?

I don't know about you but I am not going to stay in this state and am constantly asking God to take me and do with me as He pleases. My honest desire is to let Him do His will in me becuase my will fails me.

Drastic spiritual measures must be taken, not the plucking out of the literal eyes when lust occurs. Likewise loving like God, in our human capacity is not literal but a call to seek after the Spirit to fulfill this command.

Have a great Sabbath,

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

When Jesus is speaking you must take into consideration what he means. When Jesus commands us to be perfect as our Father in heaven He is also letting us know that this is a possiblity.

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That "possibility" isn't discussed within the context of Matthew chapter five. And I have considered the context. Here it is again:

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." [verse 20]

So Norman [according to the context]...are you saying that unless you are perfect, just as God is perfect, that "you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven"?

Rob

[Robert]

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Robert said:

So Norman [according to the context]...are you saying that unless you are perfect, just as God is perfect, that "you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven"?

Rob

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Norman...I hope you are doing okay! Sorry we disagree here, but that's the way it goes. We disagreed with Romans 7...and now Matt 5.

As to Matthew chapter 5, well...here's the context:

verse 17 “Do not think that I [Jesus] came to abolish the Law [i.e., The book of the law] or the Prophets [isaiah; Daniel; etc] I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The context is clear: You must produce a righteousness that surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees!

Immediately Christ begins comparing the letter of the law to its spiritual requirements. See and compare 21 & 22; 27 & 28; 38 & 39...etc.

In other words [for example] just because you don't murder doesn't mean you are keeping the law. Your thoughts must be perfect also for if you "hate" someone - in the eyes of the law - you are a murderer.

So Christ adds the spirit of the law to what the Pharisees were already doing, that is, keeping the letter of the law.

In a nutshell, "You must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob, all is well in the Byers' residence and I don't mind the disagreements at all, I like the discussions.

I have a major pet peeve with this forum, actually it's me. I have done this a number of times and it's very aggravating. It happens when I am at the end of a long well thought out post. I'll hit some key in my flurry of typing and somehow go back to a previous page. Then I loose all that I have typed. I just did that. I am going to use MS word and then C&P it so this doesn't happen again.

You said,

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"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." [verse 20]

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What Jesus is saying here is that the disciples must not have the type of righteousness that the Pharisees have. They were trying to attain their own righteousness by law keeping and following traditions.

(Paul notes this is Romans 10:3 “For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”)

Then Jesus revealed the type of righteousness that was needed to enter the kingdom of heaven. He said you know that murder will bring you into judgment, but I tell you that if you’re angry with a brother without a cause you are in danger of judgment and hell fire. Then He continues to explain to them the meaning of true righteousness. It is not an external, flesh devised work but it’s a principle that takes root in the heart of a person. He was showing them that the kind of righteousness God is seeking is based on love. It’s a righteousness that shows the difference between people who think it’s wrong to commit adultery, but yet lusts in their hearts and those who see that lusting in the heart is and not committing the act is unrighteousness.

Jesus was not telling them to be more perfect in the commitment to laws and traditions; He was saying that the disciples (and us) must have a different righteousness than the Pharisees. A person who loves like God by the indwelling of the Spirit will not lust after another person without knowing its wrong. They will avoid doing so because they realize that they are treating people (whom Christ died for and need to be won to Him) like objects to fulfill their selfish desires.

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So Norman [according to the context]...are you saying that unless you are perfect, just as God is perfect, that "you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven"?

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It depends on what you see the context as. I see it this way. Jesus in talking about the law and it not being done away with starts to discuss the righteousness of the Pharisees which is mere outward keeping of laws and tradition but have no heart for God or their fellow man. He tells the disciples that they must keep it in Spirit from a heart ruled by agape.

Then He gives more examples of this kind or God’s righteousness and ends up saying that they must not have partiality (like the Pharisees who would not acknowledge the publicans) and that they must treat everyone alike, with love. After that explanation, He says “be ye therefore perfect”, the “therefore” indicates that there a reason (that was just discussed) why they should be perfect and how they are to be perfect. Then He continues, even as you Father in heaven is perfect. In other words, just as God treats all equally and is not like the Pharisees, so ye do likewise.

So in this context, I answer your question, “Yes,” if our righteousness does not exceed that of the Pharisees and if we are not perfect like our Father in heaven, in the way He treats everyone, we will not enter the kingdom of God.

Norman

I just quickly read your 2nd post to me and I think we agree

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Then Jesus revealed the type of righteousness that was needed to enter the kingdom of heaven. He said you know that murder will bring you into judgment, but I tell you that if you’re angry with a brother

without a cause

you are in danger of judgment and hell fire. Then He continues to explain to them the meaning of true righteousness.

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Jesus had every reason to retaliate with deadly force, but He didn't. In fact He proved that it was against His nature to fight back...to kill.

By the way that phrase, "without a cause" is only found in the KJV! The KJV has more errors than other non-paraphrased Bibles....I guess you could say they do a little adding....Anyway, take a look:

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment [KJV]

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment [RSV]

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment [NIV]

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court [NASB]

but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment [ASV]

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So in this context, I answer your question, “Yes,” if our righteousness does not exceed that of the Pharisees and if we are not perfect like our Father in heaven, in the way He treats everyone, we will not enter the kingdom of God.

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Norman, that's a subtle form of legalism! Now don't get upset for I am not calling you a legalist....

You see I believe Jesus is meeting the Jews where they were at...and traditionally speaking the Jews were under bondage to the law. They learned this from the Pharisees! But before I continue let me illustrate my point using something clearer than Matt chapter five....The point is that the mentality of the Jews was legalistic in the days of Christ.

Matt 19:16 And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”

17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good....

Note how Jesus corrects his theology above! After that He answers the man's question:

"but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Does Jesus really teach salvation by law? NO! Does He teach that a change occurs? Yes! He does say, "If you love me keep my commands"...but He doesn't say, "If you love keep my commands or you won't make it to heaven."

If one approaches God in a legalistic manner [as did the rich ruler], then God (in order to break him of his self-righteous attitude) will give him the law as a means of salvation….Only when he gives up this notion that he can gain heaven by law is he ready for the gospel!

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

The KJV is different from a lot of the newer translations and I use as my main study Bible for certain reasons. I think that's one of the reasons we disagree in certain areas.

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Matt 19:16 And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”

17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good....

Note how Jesus corrects his theology above! After that He answers the man's question:

"but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

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I see this differently: The young ruler comes up to Jesus calling Him a good Master. He would not call Him anything more that that because he was covetous and desired the praise of men, specifically the Pharisees. Jesus says to this man you are calling me a good Master/Teacher, there's only one that is good and that's me. You need to realize who you are talking to. Why does He say this? Because that young man was about to ask Him about a way to heaven and Jesus knew His answer must be understood as coming from God and not just a good teacher. Jesus was God therefore He was referring to Himself. If He was referring to the Father He would have said so a He does in many other places.

He asked Jesus about the doing and Jesus answered on the doing but left out coveting because that was this mans problem. So Jesus answer was right,” the conditions for eternal life have always been the same obedience to the commandments." SOP

Now before you blow a gasket let me explain.

Look at what Jesus asked him to do. Give all your riches away to the poor and follow me. He was saying, love your neighbor as yourself (by giving your wealth to them) and love me (God, the one the young ruler just called good master). This young man looked at Jesus and thought for a moment and then chose to love his cash and possessions instead of loving God and man as himself. If He had of done that, it would have REVEALED that he had accepted Christ as God and chosen to love man as himself. This would have revealed that He had accepted the salvation given to him by grace and grace alone. But he walked away from God who it says loved him and he deliberately refused the gift of salvation.

There has got to be a method of revealing to the universe when someone accepts Christ and all that He has provided for us in His incarnation, life, death, resurrection and priestly ministry. It is the keeping of the commandments and that does not add to our list of good works because it is God's Spirit in us doing the revealing. Jack supports this, again, not as a means of salvation but a witness that we have accepted and received the salvation of God in Christ.

From “Romans the Clearest Gospel”

“We must remember that our bodies are still mortal, still flesh - still sinful. But through the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer it is possible to live a spiritual life.

Paul now concludes in Romans 8: 12-14 Therefore brethren we are debtors (we have an obligation as Christians) not to the flesh (because we have crucified the flesh in Christ, Gal 5:24) but to the Spirit” (If we live according to the flesh, we will die because the flesh will take us to the grave) But if by the Spirit (which we are debtors to) you put to death the deeds of the body you will live”

“In other words Christian living must bear fruit, for in the judgment each will be judged by their fruit. Though the fruits do not save anyone, they are evidence of genuine justification by faith.” P.147

Basically all fruit is produced by the Spirit to reveal we are Christ’s now and it will be used in the judgment. This is character which will not deliberately live after the flesh, but loves God and man and choose to be led of the Spirit and will express that love by living the commandments.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

I see this differently: The young ruler comes up to Jesus calling Him a good Master. He would not call Him anything more then that because he was covetous and desired the praise of men, specifically the Pharisees.

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Do you have Bible proof for such an assumption?

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Jesus says to this man you are calling me a good Master/Teacher, there's only one that is good and that's me.

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Here's what it actually states: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:

The rich man addressed Jesus as a teacher of the law - a mere human. Hence Christ's reply - "Why callest thou me good?"

The man wanted heaven by works, but Christ lets him know that it's impossible because there's only one good, God! That means everyone else is missing the mark!

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He asked Jesus about the doing and Jesus answered on the doing but left out coveting because that was this mans problem.

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No...coveting = loving self before your neighbor. Face it, you look after your needs first, then if there's something left you help out. That's self-love and the law condemns that! Christ never lived for himself...he never placed himself 1st because that is coveting...it is self-love. That's why I tell you guys you aren't measuring up, but you deny it....

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So Jesus answer was right,” the conditions for eternal life have always been the same obedience to the commandments." SOP

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Then no one will make it to heaven!!!

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Give all your riches away to the poor and follow me. He was saying, love your neighbor as yourself (by giving your wealth to them)

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Then you must do the same....You must live a completely selfless life....Partial obedience doesn't make the grade.

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It is the keeping of the commandments and that does not add to our list of good works because it is God's Spirit in us doing the revealing.

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How do you know it is always the Spirit? It could be you doing the works....How can you tell the difference?

Besides, the spirit will never contradict Christ's complete work. What the spirit does in you does not add to what Christ accomplished on the cross....That's legalism!

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Jack supports this, again, not as a means of salvation but a witness that we have accepted and received the salvation of God in Christ.

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Anyway you twist it you are preaching "means"! Jack opposes that, strongly!

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But through the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer it is possible to live a spiritual life.

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Growth? No problem....Perfection? Jack doesn't teach that!

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Though the fruits do not save anyone, they are evidence of genuine justification by faith.” P.147

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How much fruit is evidence of genuine faith? 20%, 40% or 100% fruit?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Rob

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Norman said:I see this differently: The young ruler comes up to Jesus calling Him a good Master. He would not call Him anything more then that because he was covetous and desired the praise of men, specifically the Pharisees.

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Do you have Bible proof for such an assumption?

Let's look at some verses.

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Jesus never mentions coveting when He explained to him which commnadments to keep.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Covetous

Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! Covetous

Nicodemus went to see Jesus at night because he rather the praise of men than the praise of God. If he being a true searcher of God and defender of Jesus didn't want the Pharisees to know then tis guy even more so. The kool aid of the time for the Pharisee was, "Do not acknowledge this man Jesus as anything but a master/teacher"

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The rich man addressed Jesus as a teacher of the law - a mere human. Hence Christ's reply - "Why callest thou me good?"

The man wanted heaven by works, but Christ lets him know that it's impossible because there's only one good, God! That means everyone else is missing the mark!

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Jesus is not good and Jesus is not God? You have it partly right in that you see that he addresses Jesus, the good One as a mere man. God is one the Father Son and Spirit. Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. This man had to be brought to the understanding that this was no mere man that he was addressing.

It is impossible to earn heaven but once you recieve the gift then the Spirit will liveout the life of Christ in you, unless you refuse that and are content to live out your own life of sin with no power to overcome. Otherwise the Spirit will bear fruit that reveals a new life. So in the end fruit is the determining factor in revealing if you have accepted Christ and all things in Him

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So Jesus answer was right,” the conditions for eternal life have always been the same obedience to the commandments." SOP

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Then no one will make it to heaven!!!

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Wecome to Laodicia, but you are going to the extreme; many are called but few are chosen. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it .

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Norman said

Give all your riches away to the poor and follow me. He was saying, love your neighbor as yourself (by giving your wealth to them)

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Rob said,

Then you must do the same....You must live a completely selfless life....Partial obedience doesn't make the grade.

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This is true but this is not a commandment, it was given specifically for this covetous rich young ruler to reveal to him how he loved his riches more than God and man. He rather die with his possessions and loose eternity than to give it up and live with Christ and His people forever, sad but true. The question we have today is what are we holding on to that prevents us from entereing into a saving relationship with Christ. Find out what that is and give that away. Some have money and possessions and do give them but they still have other issues to deal with. If all it took to secure heaven and be in a saving relationship was to give away all our possessions there'd a good number of people who would do it. But they would find out quickly that there is no joy in one time sacrifice. It must be continuous and guided by the Spirit with complete surrender.

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How do you know it is always the Spirit? It could be you doing the works....How can you tell the difference?

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This is a theoretical question that is easy to explain by a theoretical answer, Rom 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

Gal 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Gal 6:7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Considerate it fruits of love. Can you tell when your wife does something out of love for you? I can, and so can many others. Rob, if you are not comletely surrendered to God then you might have self contributing and not know the difference. It is our calling to be dead to self. There is a death that we experience when we truly come to Christ, it's the death to the desire to sin. We then have a period of grow until we get to the point of full surrender. If we were to die at anytime we would be saved, not because of our works but because we have accepted Christ and reveal the fruit by the Spirit. Once we are fully surrendered life will be different. For some this takes a life time for others they doit in a short period of time. God works with us at our won level and pace. He is not in the habit of forcing us to to grow.

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Jack supports this, again, not as a means of salvation but a witness that we have accepted and received the salvation of God in Christ.

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Anyway you twist it you are preaching "means"! Jack opposes that, strongly

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I just copied it from his book Rob how can I twist anything.

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Growth? No problem....Perfection? Jack doesn't teach that!

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I was using Jack's quote to show you what I meant I didn't bring perfection into this discussion. Whether Jack teaches it or not it doesn't matter to me. Like you with EGW, I don't agree with all that Jack says. Don't take this wrong, but the more we discuss this, the more I am against what Jack teaches. That is, if you are accurately representing what he teaches.

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How much fruit is evidence of genuine faith? 20%, 40% or 100% fruit?

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As Jack says, "Some may produce 30 fold, some 60 fold, some 100 fold, but all is evidence of justification by faith" I say we'll know when a complete surrender is a reality in our lives.