Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

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Norman said:

...if you are continually coveting then you are not converted you are not righteous because by your continual actions you show that you have no faith in Christ and you have not accepted the Gospel. If you covet once or very rarely, you are righteous. Because you are living by the Spirit and from time to time you may fail.

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Norman, let me quote your post below: "The whole time I have simply been saying that conversion is not like what is described in R7."

I see why you reject my take on the man of Romans 7 given your two quotes above. But again, I disagree (sorry).

1] We are no longer under the law after we accepted Christ. The law can't touch us...it can't command us to obey and neither can it demand our death.

2] The very fact that we "fall short" [Rom 3:23] means that there are sins in our life that we are repeating. Maybe its our thoughts...maybe its our self-seeking and self-importance???

Again, back to THE CONTEXT of Romans 7....Please look at these facts:

Paul makes a statement in Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound....

Because Paul ahs left the impression that the law is bad thing and therefore we had to be delivered from it...he asks: "Is the Law sin?" [verse 7]

He says, "Certainly not!" After all, "I [Paul] would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” [verse 7]

Why did Paul pick the 10th commandment? Perhaps because this coveting is not an outward sin...it is cherished desire! Nevertheless the law condemns our sinful thoughts also....That's why Paul said, " I found that the very commandment [i.e., the 10th] that was intended to bring life actually brought death." [verse 10]

So while the law and sin are not synonymous, the law does demand death to the transgressor. Hence to be under law is a terrible thing for sinners. That's why we had to be delievered from the law.

But again it was through the 10th commandment that Paul learned that coveting was something more than we typically make it to be. That's why Paul says, "through the commandment [i.e., the 10th] sin might become utterly sinful." [verse 13]

Please remember that according to Paul anything outside agape love is considered "self-seeking." That's why 1 Cor 13:5 states that "love...is not self-seeking" [NIV]

When Paul realized this spiritual dimension of the law he said, "24 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin [i.e., as defined by the 10th commandment]. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate...."

He goes on to say, "22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Now according to your theology this would have the man of Romans 7 lost because he is repeating the sin of self-seeking [as understood through the 10th commandment].

But Paul doesn't say that such a man is lost! Why?

1] He has the law written in the mind [see verse 22]

2] He is depending on Jesus Christ [see 25]

3] "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" by faith.... [Rom 8:1]

Clearly the man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirit of the law. Yet unlike your conclusion he is not lost...he is not unconverted.

How do I reconcile this with 1 John 3:9? Let's read it again:

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him...." [NASB]

Did the man of Romans practice sin?

No! Why? In his heart he hated sin...in his mind he loved God's law. He repented of his condition: "Oh, wretched man that I am." Just as Job repented of his self-righteousness when He said, "Behold, I am vile...I repent in dust and ashes."

Jesus says, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." He says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...." By accepting His righteousness this give Him permission to present you "holy and blameless" in Himself....Yes, we grow...yes eventually we will progress, but Jesus isn't there to condemn us...

So then...a practiced sin is one we are unwilling to acknowledge before God.

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Just a few more comments on Paul; when he says that he's the chief of sinners, he is speaking in reference to his past life, not his current state. I guess you would not agree with that because that is basically what I am saying about R7.

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Norman...I am not trying to give you a bad time....So stay cool.

I disagree with your conclusion above. Pay attention to verb tense:

2 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Yes, above Paul is speaking of his past experience. Let's read on:

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.[KJV]

Note Paul was speaking in the present continuous tense and not of his past experience in verse 15.

Rob

[Robert]

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Jesus says, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." He says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...."

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Now I've heard the circular reasoning on 1 John 1:8-9. First let me quote it again:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It goes like this: When I sin I need to confess that sin. When I do Jesus forgives me and cleanses my life from all sin. Now my performance is perfect because I am no longer sinning....

Do you see the problem? Right, it contradicts verse eight! In other words I am claiming I have no sin and therefore I have deceived myself.

Rob

[Robert]

Norman...I am trying to understand your theology...where you are coming from....I've ask Gerry this before (so Gerry, let Norman answer).

1] When King David's nature got a hold of his mind and he committed the sins of adultery and murder, did he come under the condemnation of the law? In other words was he outside salvation until he repented of his terrible sins?

2] What if David had died before he repented...would he have been eternally lost?

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob, I know it may sound like I'm saying two different things but I'm not. Let me explain what I see. PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST

The person in R7 is not converted, the person writing R7 is converted, the person being described in R7 is Paul and his struggles, the person describing the man in R7 is Paul describing his nature without the power of the Holy Spirit. R7 is in all of us, meaning we do not have the ability to do anything on our own (Without me ye can do nothing). But when Paul concludes that there is no hope for him (that is to say in his flesh) he cries, Oh wretched man that I am who will deliver me from the body of this death? He praised God for a solution. Then he states that, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God" That is present tense. He is stating that currently he is doing that. There's no other way to read that statement differently. Then he states, "but with the flesh the law of sin." Now he states that his flesh is always there and he serves the law of sin with his flesh. Now he's certainly not saying that he is currently doing that. But in the way that Paul writes, he is stating that, "I serve God with my mind, (spiritually) but my flesh is always there and if I give into it I will serve the law of sin." That's what I believe R7 is and see that supported in R8 and many other places in the Bible. This in no way contributes to Paul's salvation but is a love response to God.

Look closely at the way Paul write theses verses.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

He is making a comparison of two states of being. In a nutshell, one is; if the Spirit lives in you, you will not live after the flesh (with your consent). This is a love response to God that can only be accomplished by the indwelling of the Spirit, otherwise it's the flesh doing it and the flesh "cannot" do anything except live for itself. That brings on the struggle of trying to do but not being able to.

Two: He states that if you live after the flesh you will die. Bye bye to life forever. So I say to myself, Norman what does it mean to live after the flesh? Then I go back to R7 and see Paul say, "Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." Then I get my answer. Oh he's talking about his flesh and is giving a description of how his flesh behaves. Now the flesh doesn't do this on it's own, so he has to be talking about when he lets it guide him. So how does it guide him? Rom 7:19 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Now verses flood my mind, but the one that stands out is, Jam 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

So to me this is clear not only by what I see here but what I read in SOP and most of all what I have personally experienced. I have lived where my life was totally given to God and I was never happier. My whole life and every waking moment was spent thinking of God and sharing Him with whoever and however. I witnessed miracles and understood scripture like never before. Rob can you imagine waking up in the morning or in the middle of the night and being filled with joy because you love God your Father so much? Can you imagine having dreams and being taught the verses that you didn't understand while you're asleep? Do you know the total joy that floods the soul when your Father is as real as what you see? I tell you from experience that it is so amazing that it removes fear of talking to anyone and it give a boldness to share in love with anyone, all while being alert to their spiritual condition or lack there of. There were months where when I was tempted I immediately gave thanks to God for letting me see it and knowing that I don' t have to give into it!

This is possible to anyone and at no time did I consider myself sinless or perfect, but instead I was filled with joy and had not time to think about those things. What got me to this point in my life? I just asked myself, why am I not living the life that is in the Bible and why am I waiting for something in the future when God will provide that for me now? Then I prayed studied and believed and He fulfilled His promises.

Then came a day when I chose to let go of that and regret it to this day. Currently I am choosing to let God bring me back to this experience. It took a while to get there and it took a while to loose my hold of God and now it is taking time but I see God doing some things in my life that I was not able to do in the past. I shared about fasting once a week, I could never do that before and now God has led me to this to accelerate this process, I believe.

This is why I believe as I do that's where I'm coming from. I still believe in the In Christ Motif but I believe that once the Gospel is understood, experienced and lived for, the fruit will reveal that a very real and dramatic change has taken place.

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1] When King David's nature got a hold of his mind and he committed the sins of adultery and murder, did he come under the condemnation of the law? In other words was he outside salvation until he repented of his terrible sins?

2] What if David had died before he repented...would he have been eternally lost?

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1. I see that in my experience although I didn't kill anyone and while I knew that God forgave me, my spiritual life was affected deeply. My ability to love God was not as it was before. I don't believe God cast me off at that point. I believe that because God knew David and David loved the Lord God forgave him instantly. Here's why I say that.2Sa 12:13 "And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

AS soon as David confessed Nathan said the Lord has put away your sin. Now Nathan knew this before he went into see David, which tells me that God had forgiven David even before he confessed. This is no ordinary case and I'm not sure I would use it as precedent.

2. No David would not have been lost if he did not repent before he died for the reason stated above.

I believe that a person's walk with the Lord means more than one act of sinfulness. Heb 6:10 "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister."

As EGW puts it, “The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.” SC 58, 59

Righteousness is not perfection but the direction of ones life. There is an absolute righteousness that we will never have on this side on heaven, but we can have the righteousness that John talks about, without the struggle of R7 but that does not mean that we will never struggle. That would be foolish to say.

That's about it Rob,

Now you should be able to see where I'm coming from.

Take care and God bless.

Norman

[Nicodema]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Yes, the man of Rom 7 knows the law, but knowing the law and being converted can be poles apart.

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Two questions?

1] Does the unconverted man "delight in God's law"? [see Rom 7:22 NIV]

If the unconverted man does "delight in God's law" then you must explain Romans 8:7 -- "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot....

Let me quote Romans 7:22 again: "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" [KJV]

2] What does Paul mean by "the inward man"?

A quick review of Paul's meaning of "the inward man" yields the following:

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that ye may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts [or mind] through faith...

2 Cor 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day. [1901 ASV]

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[:"purple"] That pretty much nails it down as far as I'm concerned. Thank you, Robert! [/]

[Robert]

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Norman said:

The person in R7 is not converted, the person writing R7 is converted, the person being described in R7 is Paul and his struggles....

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Norman...I see your point, but again your basing it on performance.

Look at Paul before conversion: "as to the Law, a Pharisee...as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." [Phil 3:5,6] Note: no mention of a struggle!

But after conversion we see Paul struggling: "But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

So my assessment is this: If there's no struggle in one's life, then there's no conversion. Self-righteous people think they are meeting God's commands...converted people, who see the spirit of the law, struggle. Christian living isn't easy...in fact all of us, whether we admit or not, are falling short of the glory of God.

Rob

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Look closely at the way Paul write theses verses.

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"The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." [Rom 8:7]

Turn to Eph 2:3 "we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath...."

Here is a description of the unconverted: Their natures and minds are in harmony...i.e., the mind loves sin too while hating God's law. Hence their minds are not subject to God's law.....

But the man in Romans 7 mind/heart has the law of God written on it. He delights in God's law according to the inward man...the renewed man.

Rob

[Robert]

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So my assessment is this: If there's no struggle in one's life, then there's no conversion. Self-righteous people think they are meeting God's commands

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Here are some examples:

• Mark 2:16 And when the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax-gatherers, they began saying to His disciples, “Why is He eating and drinking with tax-gatherers and sinners?” 17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “it is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

  Luke 18:10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 “The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, ‘God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 “But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.”

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Jesus says, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." He says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...."

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Now I've heard the circular reasoning on 1 John 1:8-9. First let me quote it again:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It goes like this: When I sin I need to confess that sin. When I do Jesus forgives me and cleanses my life from all sin. Now my performance is perfect because I am no longer sinning....

Do you see the problem? Right, it contradicts verse eight! In other words I am claiming I have no sin and therefore I have deceived myself.

Rob

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[:"blue"]Your problem as I see it, is interpreting 1:8 as an ongoing experience of the believer. If that were so, then he would be in greater contradiction when he says in 1 Jn 3:6, [:"red"] "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." [/]

The same Paul who said in Rom 3:23, "All have sinned and fall short," is the same one who said in 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly NOT! How shall we who died to sin LIVE any longer in it?"

Willful/intentional/deliberate sinning/violation of God's law should be a past experience in the life of a converted person, otherwise grace becomes a cloak to justify ongoing rebellion, for that is what willful/intentional/deliberate sinning is. If the believer cannot be lost for willful/intentional/deliberate sinning, then King Saul is not lost; Cain is not lost; Judas is not lost; Ananias & Saphira are not lost!

How can you say you have been born again and continue to live the same old life? How can you say the believer is a new creation when in reality he is the same old man?

[:"red"]"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light." Eph 5:8

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you WERE slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. .....But NOW having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life." Rom 6:16,17,22 NKJ [/]

As long as we are in this mortal body, yes, sin remains, but it does not reign; it does not have dominion, that is God's promise, Rom 6:14. You may not believe it, but I do.

When sin is still reigning, having dominion over a person, he/she cannot resist what sin tells him/her what to do because he/she is a slave to sin. Jesus was very explicit, no one can serve two masters. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

Look closely at the way Paul write theses verses.

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"The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." [Rom 8:7]

Turn to Eph 2:3 "we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath...."

Here is a description of the unconverted: Their natures and minds are in harmony...i.e., the mind loves sin too while hating God's law. Hence their minds are not subject to God's law.....

But the man in Romans 7 mind/heart has the law of God written on it. He delights in God's law according to the inward man...the renewed man.

Rob

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[:"blue"]I think you completely missed something here that Paul was saying. [:"red"] "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you ONCE walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who NOW works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all ONCE conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." Eph 2:1-3 NKJ [/]

Paul is here describing what was ONCE, the PAST way of life that the converted person lived. They ONCE followed the dictates of the prince of this world, the same [:"red"]"spirit who NOW works in the sons of disobedience." 2:2. [/] One cannot be a son of God and still be controlled by another spirit. You are either a "son of disobedience" "children of the devil" or a child of God, "slave of righteousness".

The purpose of grace is NOT to justify ongoing disobedience. [:"red"]"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:8,9 NKJ. [/]

A believer cannot be doing what sin tells him/her to do like the man of R7, and be doing the good works God wants him/her to do. The believer, that born again/new creation life that is created in the believer is God's workmanship. When God creates something, it cannot be laced with sin. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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So my assessment is this: If there's no struggle in one's life, then there's no conversion. Self-righteous people think they are meeting God's commands

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Here are some examples:

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax-gatherers, they began saying to His disciples, “Why is He eating and drinking with tax-gatherers and sinners?” 17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “it is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”


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[:"blue"]Does the sick and the lame who come to the Great Physician remain sick and lame? Has the Great Physician NO power to heal? Does the sinner who come to the One who claimed, "All power has been given to Me in heaven & on earth," the One who calls Himself, the "Alpha and the Omega....the Almighty" in fact so powerless that He cannot keep the sinner from falling? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

The person in R7 is not converted, the person writing R7 is converted, the person being described in R7 is Paul and his struggles....

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Norman...I see your point, but again your basing it on performance.

Look at Paul before conversion: "as to the Law, a Pharisee...as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." [Phil 3:5,6] Note: no mention of a struggle!

But after conversion we see Paul struggling: "But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

So my assessment is this: If there's no struggle in one's life, then there's no conversion. Self-righteous people think they are meeting God's commands...converted people, who see the spirit of the law, struggle. Christian living isn't easy...in fact all of us, whether we admit or not, are falling short of the glory of God.

Rob

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[:"blue"]Of course, the Christian life is a battle and a march. It is a continueing struggle. The flesh craves to be satisfied, but Paul's counsel is, [:"red"]"Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:11 NKJ. [/]

That is why he also said, "I die daily." As long as we are alive in this body, we will have the flesh to contend with. That is why he also said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." 1 Cor 9:27 NKJ.

And John's point is, IF we live in Him, we will not continue to sin.[/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Nico,

good to have you here again.

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Two questions?

1] Does the unconverted man "delight in God's law"? [see Rom 7:22 NIV]

2] What does Paul mean by "the inward man"?

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Answer to question 1] is yes. That's why there a struggle. We all have a desire to do that which is good and right.We all know what's just and unjust even though we may have different ideas of this. The thief has his code of honor which he has taken from what he know to be right or wrong. The child of God who knows the law of God has the correct understanding of the law of God and desires to live by it.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Those verses describe the Gentiles who HAVE THE LAW, WHERE? written in their hearts, that would be the inner man. They have a struggle as well and it's described in the last clause of those verses. The difference is that they cannot over come because, although the law is written in their hearts, they have no Power to overcome. How many people do you know who are not Christians who have no struggles with doing what's right? The Christian is in the same boat if he is not led by the Spirit. Although he has more responsiblity because he knows more. It makes no difference what we call our self but what we do that matters. What we do, reveals the converted soul and God working in us to do of His good pleasure.

2] The inner man is the spiritual man that we all have although some fight it and some don't. We all know what is right and wrong unless there's a breakdown in the mind. That distinction comes from God. Being spiritually dead means that we have no power or in some case desire to do the good we know to do. Some people have a limited understanding of this but they will still be judged by what they do with what they know. What they know comes from God to an under developed inner man.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob,

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Norman said:The person in R7 is not converted, the person writing R7 is converted, the person being described in R7 is Paul and his struggles....

Norman...I see your point, but again your basing it on performance.

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I'm not too sure what you mean that I'm "basing it on performance." I am saying that we respond to God's love in a way that changes our inner being from one that is selfish and wants to do good but does not know how, to one that is controlled by selflessness (the Spirit) and wants to do good and has found the ability to do good in Christ and has Christ in Him.

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Look at Paul before conversion: "as to the Law, a Pharisee...as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." [Phil 3:5,6] Note: no mention of a struggle!

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He mentions no struggle because that's not the topic of his message, it doesn't mean that he did not struggle. There’s no proof that he did not struggle. But there is proof that Saul struggled when he saw Stephen reveal that same selfless love that Christ had while being murdered by his enemies. From that day on the struggle was to do good by accepting Christ and changing his behavior from persecuting to receiving Christians. He could not do this because his pride and the love of men’s praise had control of him. He was loosing the battle until he met Christ and self died. From that day forward he was never the same. The coveting of men’s praise meant nothing to him anymore because He now had the praise and love of God. I say praise, in that Jesus told him that he was chosen to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. That was a message or vote of confidence to him. "Think of it" he muses, God has given me a ministry after all that I have done, God truly loves me" This is not a prideful statement but a realization of what God does for His children.

Paul was settled in the truth and had no confidence in his past successes. He is not stating that he never had any struggles, that would be untrue.

Those who have no struggle are those who know about Christ and then reject Him. Phil 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

They have given themselves over to following their flesh. No Struggles for them because they mind the things of the flesh or follow the mind of the flesh while totally rejecting the Spirit.

But those who have not rejected the Spirit have a battle and this is the lot of the Christian who knows Christ but is still living after the flesh and want to serve God, but does not know how. This also applies to those who don't know Christ and are searching, these, who are many have struggles all the time.

Then there are the Christians who know Christ and love the Father and have learned of and experienced and are living in the love of God. They are mature and are continuing to learn and have overcome the flesh because they know that if they give in to it they will hurt the Lord, grieve the Spirit and bring sorrow to themselves.

The life of victory is an outworking of the inner working of the Spirit. It does not save us or qualify us or entitle us to heaven but reveals, by our fruit that we have accepted the Son of God and have believed the testimony of Christ when He said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." It is real and I know that I have experienced it and will experience it again by the power of God. I look forward to the day when you do too. You will be ear to ear grinning

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So my assessment is this: If there's no struggle in one's life, then there's no conversion. Self-righteous people think they are meeting God's commands...converted people, who see the spirit of the law, struggle. Christian living isn't easy...in fact all of us, whether we admit or not, are falling short of the glory of God.

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Rob, there will be a struggle but it is not the slavery described in R7. What we do have in the Christian life is suffering. That is not the same as struggling. Suffering implies not giving in, holding fast and gaining the victory. That is what is missing in what you believe. There is no reason to suffer (according towhat you believe) because you are supposed to be like that, so that "converted" (Not converted in reality) human mind will be happy with the way things are. Do you see that? There will never be any joy to empower us to continue to overcoming. The joy of the Lord is our strength, not the thought that one day we will have victory, when Christ returns. The reason we have a difference in fruit from the unbeliever is because we experience victory by the Spirit after suffering and then we have a joy that cannot be taken away. We realize that this victory comes from the Lord and not of ourselves and this very truth causes us to sing praises to our God and live as joyful Christians. There is no joy to be had in what you believe because you don't get to experience the power of the Spirit, only continual struggle and failure, no wonder Paul cries out, Oh wretched man that I am who will deliver me from the body of this death? And no wonder he gives thanks and praise to God because in Christ those who walk after the Spirit, (Have Christ within) which means they have received the Spirit, have victory while they suffer through the temptation.

Norman

[Robert]

Norman,

I can't believe you have the man of Romans 7, Unconverted and lost! If that's your conclusion then all of us will never see the gates of heaven because Paul is speaking of his performance in comparison to the spirituality of the law. Let me quote EGW again [at least she agrees with me on this subject]:

• -BC- SC

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  Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); [:"red"]but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned[:"black"], he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride] was gone.”

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  We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; [:"red"]we shall discern the selfishness of motive[:"red"], the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life.[:"black"]

I've given you EGW statements that emphatically spell out that we are never fully measuring up to the spirituality of the law. Why do you turn a blind eye to these statements? Why do you reject Paul's assessment of our condition when He says that, "All have sinned AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD"? “And fall short" is in present continuous tense…it means to never fully measure up.

Also, why do you and Gerry ignore that the issue in Romans 7 has to do with the spirituality of the law? I've clearly made that point, but you guys ignore it! You can't do that and arrive at truth. By ignoring this central issue you can make Romans chapter 7 say anything you desire. In a nutshell I don’t see you and Gerry as being honest with the context….

Sorry,

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Your problem as I see it, is interpreting 1:8 as an ongoing experience of the believer. If that were so, then he would be in greater contradiction when he says in 1 Jn 3:6, [:"red"] "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." [/]

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The problem is your interpretation! As I've stated a billon times a cherished sin is a sin that one persistently refuses to acknowledge before God! "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

You are equating "and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" as something He does in us. That's your problem! If that were true then, as I said, it would contradict verse 8: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves."

The unbeliever isn't lost because he didn't keep the law...he is lost because he refused to believe and make Christ His righteousness.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Your sinful nature is deceiving you into thinking that you are measuring up to God's law....That's the problem! Since only sinners need Christ's righteousness then you, being cleansed from all sin, wouldn't need Him....

That was the mistake of the Jews....They kept the law, they didn't need this guy named Jesus....So keep on believing you are measuring up....It will lead you to unbelief in Christ.

Rob

[Robert]

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You are equating "and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" as something He does in us. That's your problem! If that were true then, as I said, it would contradict verse 8: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves."

---

Here...let me give you a clearer verse:

Col 1:21 And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind- in your evil works...

Stop! What did Paul say? Alienated in your mind! Before conversion your mind and your flesh wanted the same thing....That's not true of the man of Romans 7 for he "delights" in God's law!

Verse 22: yet now hath he [Christ] reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him [if you keep God's law]? NO!

verse 23: if ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

If you believe...if your mind is in harmony with God's love [through the Spirit]..then your heart is right. Remember, God looks at the heart....If He based heaven on our performance, well, we would never make it.

The point, however, is that Christ presents us "in Himself" as we keep our faith in Him....Hence in him we are "holy and without blemish"! That's what it means to be cleansed!

Now, EGW's good stuff:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, [:"red"] "Ye are complete in Him."[/] Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob,

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I can't believe you have the man of Romans 7, Unconverted and lost!

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I have the man being discribed unconverted but Paul is converted.

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If that's your conclusion then all of us will never see the gates of heaven because Paul is speaking of his performance in comparison to the spirituality of the law.

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Welcome to Laodicia and not all will be lost but few will be saved, this the Bible teaches.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

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I've given you EGW statements that emphatically spell out that we are never fully measuring up to the spirituality of the law. Why do you turn a blind eye to these statements? Why do you reject Paul's assessment of our condition when He says that, "All have sinned AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD"? “And fall short" is in present continuous tense…it means to never fully measure up.

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Rob here's why and it's something that you have overlooked. You have discribed Paul's condition well and you have chosen statement to suit what you wish to communicate but what you are not proving is the fact that, while these things are true, you leave Paul in a continual state of wretchedness and miss the change that he went through which is recorded in R8. I have posted many statements to that effect and you have never been able to refute them. I understand what EGW says about Paul and I know it's true but I also see that while he went through that experience he was a totally changed man after. This you don't mention and state that,

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“And fall short" is in present continuous tense…it means to never fully measure up.

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which is not true. When Paul states that no one seeks after God and that we all fall short he is talking about before Christ came. That's why Christ came to be the shepherd of these straying sheep.

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When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride] was gone.”

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In the very quote you posted she says that his self esteem was gone. Gone means gone: no longer there and not struggling with it. How can you quote that and not see it? That pride is what he was struggling with before he was converted; but no longer, not after he met Christ. I can't understand how you can have him still struggling with it.

Let's look at the entire verse, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" The first part of that sentence is past tense not present.

Now look at the verses that go with it, Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God. Jesus in whom we all are; did not fall short of the glory of God and therefore neither do we, objectively. Subjectively, it is being done. What manner of person reveals the glory of God? We do, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Now that's good news!

Now let's continue to look at what she said about Nicodemus,

"Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. CC 292

He [Nicodemus] saw that the most rigid obedience to the mere letter of the law as applied to the outward life could entitle no man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In the estimation of men, his life had been just and honorable; but in the presence of Christ he felt that his heart was unclean, and his life unholy. . . . As the Saviour explained to him concerning the new birth, he longed to have this change wrought in himself. . . . Jesus answered the unspoken question: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." . . .

Nicodemus received the lesson, and carried it with him. He searched the Scriptures in a new way, not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit. . . . CC 293

This is what you are not seeing Rob, the change that comes by Christ. Again the person described by Paul in R7 is not converted but if you follow on into R8 you will see a converted person.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob I read this in your reply to Gerry,

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Now, EGW's good stuff:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself,

some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

---

look at that last clause, The reason this person is doing these things is to gain favor with God. That is not what I am saying and I don't think Gerry is saying either. I am saying that yes all the above is true but you are using it out of context. This person sees himself as described and realizes that he was trying to gain God's approval by his own works. I am not saying that; I am saying that after a person see his failure to do good and then sees the grace of God in Christ he then gives up on self and lets God do the work in Him to transform. He does this with joy and is able to overcome in the power of the Holy Spirit.

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Here...let me give you a clearer verse:

Col 1:21 And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind- in your evil works...

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Now lets look at the whole verse Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

According to your discription, that is discribing the R7 man "enemies in your mind by wicked works" He's still doing these things, because the way you present him, you have R7 man not overcoming and struggling.

Again what Paul is stating is a discription of what's in him and not what he is actually doing. That's why he can say he delights in the inward man.

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Verse 22: yet now hath he [Christ] reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him [if you keep God's law]? NO!

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1st Paul said they are reconciled and no longer enemies of God. 2nd they will be presented holy, without blemish and unreprovable. What does the law have to do with this? It discribes what a holy, unblemished and unreprovable person is like. They are not made holy etc.. because they keep the law. They keep the law because they love God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that is all that I am saying.

Sorry to cut in on your reply to Gerry, but I had to clarify that. Gerry you can do the rest.

Norman

[Robert]

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Now look at the verses that go with it, Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for

the remission of sins that are past

, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God.

---

What does it mean here? This last phrase has been misinterpreted by many. Paul is not saying here that when you accept Christ he forgives your past sins. The idea that justification is only the forgiveness of past sins is unbiblical. It is a heresy to me and I’ll tell you why: because it leaves you in insecurity, because every time you make a mistake it means you become unjustified until you repent. So then you are a yoyo, in Christ and out of Christ. Such living is what produces poor Christianity in God’s house!

We are living under the umbrella of the justification of Christ. This doesn’t mean that we can condone sin, we need to aknowledge our sins. But what does Paul mean when he says that in the past God overlooked the sins that were previously committed? Here is what Paul is saying and the context supports this.

The word “beforehand” [or “past,” in some translations] here refers to before Jesus shed his blood, before the cross event. Did God forgive sin? The answer is yes. Could He forgive sin in a just way? The answer is no, He forgave it out of His forbearance, out of His patience, out of kindness, but not out of justice, because His own law says there can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood and the shedding of the blood of bulls and goats and lambs could not do that legally and that’s what the book of Hebrews brings out, chapter 9 and 10 especially. But now verse 26 says:

...he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That is legal justification, at least one meaning of legal justification. In other words, since the cross, God is absolutely just before his own law in forgiving us and this is what Paul means in verse 31, which we will cover in the next study. Do you make void the law through preaching justification by faith? Does this doctrine of justification by faith nullify the law? Paul says nothing doing. It upholds the law because in Christ — in his life and his death — God is legally just in justifying the believer.

In other words, before the law of God, you and I stand perfectly justified in Christ and God is upholding His law in doing that. God is not going against His law; in other words, the law and God are in harmony in justifying the believer and this is what Paul says:

...to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

In other words, the Devil, before the cross, could point his finger at God and say, “You have no right to take these sinners to heaven. They are sinners!” But, since the cross, the Devil’s mouth has been shut up and God will say to the Devil, “I rebuke thee. Is not this a branch plucked out of the fire?”

Yes, by nature and performance we belong to death row, that’s where we belong by ourselves. But Jesus plucked us out of that grave and justified us and now He stands before the right hand of God, not to plead before the Father, but to defend that justification before the accusation of Satan and He is just in doing that.

In other words, why should we have the investigative judgment if I am already justified in Christ? The purpose of the investigative judgment is not to find out if you deserve heaven or not. None of us deserve heaven; we are saved by grace. It is because our justification in Christ has to be vindicated before we go to heaven and, in the investigative judgment, Jesus will defend our justification and he will vindicate it and he will say to Satan, “You have no right to accuse them because they have accepted me and I am their propitiation. Therefore, I rebuke you.” And he will turn to us and say, “Come inherit the kingdom of my Father which was prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

[Robert]

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Norman said:

The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God.

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• The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. [EGW]

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Now look at the verses that go with it, Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for

the remission of sins that are past

, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God.

---

What does it mean here? This last phrase has been misinterpreted by many. Paul is not saying here that when you accept Christ he forgives your past sins. The idea that justification is only the forgiveness of past sins is unbiblical. It is a heresy to me and I’ll tell you why: because it leaves you in insecurity, because every time you make a mistake it means you become unjustified until you repent. So then you are a yoyo, in Christ and out of Christ. Such living is what produces poor Christianity in God’s house!

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[:"blue"]Tell me, how can you forgive something that has not occurred yet? The Cross is an offering for past, present, and future sins, YES!!!, but forgiveness and justification do not occur as a personal future experience. Forgiveness and justification as an experiential reality in the sinner takes place only at the point of repentance & conversion. [/]

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We are living under the umbrella of the justification of Christ. This doesn’t mean that we can condone sin, we need to aknowledge our sins.

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[:"blue"] And after you have acknowledged that sin yet continue to do it anyway, do you still remain under this umbrella of justification? Absurd! That would make God a liar! Continueing to tell all His creation that Gerry is righteous, he is perfect. He has not stopped cheating, but he is cheating less. He has not stopped fornicating, but he is fornicating less!

Great theology!!![/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God.

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• The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. [EGW]

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[:"blue"]May I ask you what you understand redemption to mean?

When a slave sold under sin is redeemed, what does he become?

When a dirty, filthy pig has been washed, what does it become?

When an infirm afflicted with rotting cancer comes to the Great Physician for healing, what does he become? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Stop! What did Paul say? Alienated in your mind! Before conversion your mind and your flesh wanted the same thing....That's not true of the man of Romans 7 for he "delights" in God's law!

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[:"blue"]All the Pharisees in Christ's time knew the law. They all delighted in the law. They even loved to bash people in the head with the law. They loved the law because they thought they could manipulate the law to justify their course of action. Yeah, CORBAN! Were all the Pharisees converted? [/]

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Verse 22: yet now hath he [Christ] reconciled

in the body of his flesh

through death,

to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him

[if you keep God's law]? NO!

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[:"blue"]Presents the man of R7 as "holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him" and before the whole universe while he continues to obey the dictates of sin that still held dominion over him?

Rob, can't you see how silly that makes God look? [/]

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verse 23:

if ye continue in the faith

, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

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[:"blue"]Does the man of R7, the man who doesn't understand what he is doing, the man does what King Sin tells him to do, does he sound and look like a man who is continueing in the faith? A man grounded and steadfast? [/]

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If you believe...if your mind is in harmony with God's love [through the Spirit]..then your heart is right. Remember, God looks at the heart....

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Yes, He does!

[:"blue"]"When it is in the heart to obey God, when effort is put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for this deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandments. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works." 1SM 384

Remember what Paul said? "Love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:10. The converted person's love can never/will never measure up to God's love, but when it is in the believer's heart to love & obey God, that is ALL God wants!!! And this meets ALL that the law requires. NEVER for merit! This is the result being saved, redeemed, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. [/]

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If He based heaven on our performance, well, we would never make it.

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[:"blue"]Believers perform, not inorder to be saved but because they have been saved.

Believers receive grace SO THAT they can obey by faith, Rom 1:5 [/]

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The point, however, is that Christ presents us "in Himself" as we keep our faith in Him....Hence in him we are "holy and without blemish"! That's what it means to be cleansed!

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[:"blue"]WRONG!!! Wrong! Wrong! How can God pronounce a filthy pig "holy and without blemish", "cleansed" while the same pig keeps wallowing in the same filth? [/]

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Now, EGW's good stuff:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain.

The soul who sees Jesus

by faith

, repudiates his own righteousness.

He sees himself as incomplete

[imperfect], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word.

In amazement he hears the message

, [:"red"] "Ye are complete in Him."[/] Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

---

[:"blue"]The believer's works is not, never has been, never will be, his works. "For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10 NKJ. And I am, "confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6 NKJ

Works acceptable to God has never been about the believer's merit. It has always been about God! It is God's workmanship. He began it, and He will finish it.[/]

Gerry