Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. THEN you will be ABLE to know the will of God - what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect." Rom 12:2 GNT

The Bible tells us from beginning to end what a sanctified is like. There is no guesswork.

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The standard of righteousness is not the law...it is Christ! Look at Christ's life and you will understand what it takes to fulfill the law.

Having said that...are you suggesting, Gerry, that you are living His life? Are you suggesting that up until the moment you accidentally sin that you were living Christ's selfless life?

If you are...well, that's not Biblical! The Bible says that all, both Jew and Gentile, "fall short of the glory of God [His goodness]." So that means, Gerry, that you are never fully measuring up to all the laws demands - period! In that respect you are indeed wretched and in need Christ's righteousness in place of your unrighteousness.

Do you agree?

[Robert]

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32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

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There's a translation issue with the KJV!

but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers [NASB]

But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers. [NIV]

but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [RSV]

...when you have turned again.... [NKJV]

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No longer in bondage, he is free to serve the One he loves and it is beautiful because he knows that he's not serving in order to be accepted or loved but that he is loved and accepted in the beloved and that compels him to serve and share.

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If we weren't in bondage and totally free from sin we wouldn't be falling short of the glory of God. The Bible teaches maturity not perfection. So in that respect we are still serving the flesh..

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

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If we weren't in bondage and totally free from sin we wouldn't be falling short of the glory of God. The Bible teaches maturity not perfection. So in that respect we are still serving the flesh..

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I pretty much agree with that. From the beginning of this I have not said that we would ever be free from sin. But we are not in bondage, a slave to sin nor should we let ourselves become slaves of the flesh.

Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

What I am saying is that Paul was converted when he wrote R7 and what he's describing is the fight with the flesh that we all go through until we are converted.

After that there's still a struggle but, the struggles do not constantly overcome us like before, no where near like before. If they are, then we should consider Rev 3 very seriously. The one thing that is instant, is love for God and love for man, that is the fruit of the Spirit and does not come in stages. If this has not taken place, then there's no conversion.

As for Luke 22:32 "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." The word in the Greek mean both what is written in the the KJV and turn again. Which means it's left up to the context of the passage to determine the proper translation. To me they mean the same.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Dr. Ben, I really don't have the time to reply to you in detail right now but I will do so at another time. I am not promoting sinlessness, but what I am saying is that R7 is not a coverted Christians life.

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Paul is saying that we will struggle with those sins in this life, but we have a "Way" out through Christ Who "covers" those deficiencies, those sins, by HIs Grace---not counting them against us

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Yes we do have forgivness but what you are describing there is a life of defeat. Have you not experienced the joy of overcoming by the power of the Lord? The only thing I can do after that happens is to praise God and know that it was not in my own strength and that leaves me with nothing to glory about.

I have stated this before and will state it again we are stuck on ourselves and are full of self-pity, self defeating thinking and selfishness. We don't let the Holy Spirit do His works and then get discouraged. Then when we read SOP we end up thinking she's schizophrenic because we lack understanding and a true experience with God.

I ask you Dr. Ben, would you like to live a life of victory? I do. I would like, if you want, to show you by your own experience, that what I have written is possible.

I will pray with you as much as you wish and I will fast with you as long as you wish and I will pray for you. Only if you are willing to do this will I join you. You asked me once, at your age, when will this happen? If you want it with all your heart and soul, now is the time. Let's seek God together and watch Him work a miracle in our lives.

I am serious about this, I am not kidding or mocking or trying to insult you. I am willing to do what ever it takes so that you can experience what you have desired in your heart. Please email me and let me know if you want to do this.

Sincerely,

Norman

[Gerr]

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The standard of righteousness is not the law...it is Christ!

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[:"blue"]Soooooooooo, since the life of Christ was not available in the OT, the OT saints therefore had no standard to follow? Therefore, no standard = no right nor wrong = no sin nor righteousness? I think you better re-think this one, Rob.

[:"red"]"He has shown you, O man, what is good;

And what does the LORD require of you

But to do justly,

To love mercy,

And to walk humbly with your God?" Mic 6:8 NKJ

"Here is the conclusion of the matter;

Fear God and keep his commandments,

for this is the whole duty of man." Eccl 12:13 NIV [/] [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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The standard of righteousness is not the law...it is Christ! Look at Christ's life and you will understand what it takes to fulfill the law.

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[:"blue"] Alright, let's look at Christ's life. Are you saying that the righteousness demanded by Christ's life is somehow different from the righteousness demanded by the law? Is not the life of Christ the very embodiment of the principles of the law? And that the law is but the very transcript of God's character? Is it not the same Jesus who said, "Now you are well, stop sinning [i.e. breaking the law] lest something worse will come to you"? John 5:14 [/]

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Having said that...are you suggesting, Gerry, that you are living His life? Are you suggesting that up until the moment you accidentally sin that you were living Christ's selfless life?

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[:"blue"]We have been commanded to, [:"red"] "be imitators [Gk mimites - mimicker] of God as dear children." Eph 5:1 NKJ. [/] As children can never perfectly imitate/mimic what their parents do, neither can the believer perfectly imitate/mimic what his Heavenly Father does. But when the child does it with all the love his little heart could muster, is that not the perfection God is looking for?

Again, we are commanded to [:"red"]"walk [live] just as He walked." 1 Jn 2:6 NKJ. [/] And again, the believer may not be able to trace perfectly the footprints of Jesus, but if the believer does so with all his heart, love, & mind, is that not the kind of perfection God is looking for? [/]

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If you are...well, that's not Biblical! The Bible says that all, both Jew and Gentile, "fall short of the glory of God [His goodness]." So that means, Gerry, that you are never fully measuring up to all the laws demands - period! In that respect you are indeed wretched and in need Christ's righteousness in place of your unrighteousness.

Do you agree?

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[:"blue"]Wretched?????????? If the believer has followed the counsel & gone to Jesus to buy refined gold, purchased the white garments to cover his nakedness & shame, applied the heavenly salve to his eyes so that now he could see, how could the believer be "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked?"

If God's [:"red"]"divine power has given to us ALL things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and previous promises, that through these you may be partakers of divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust," 2 Pet 1:3,4 NKJ, [/]if [:"red"]it is God who works in you both to will AND to DO for His good pleasure," [/] how can you say the believer is wretched?

Look at all the blessings the believer enjoys in Eph 1.

1)adoption as sons 2) redemption from slavery 3) forgiveness of sins 4) inheritance in God's kingdom 5) sealed with the Holy Sprit 6) given wisdom and revelation 7) raised from the dead to life 8) citizen in the kingdom of God.

Wretched?????????? It's time you open your eyes to the true status of God's children, Rob. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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If we weren't in bondage and totally free from sin we wouldn't be falling short of the glory of God. The Bible teaches maturity not perfection. So in that respect we are still serving the flesh..

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[:"blue"]Does this sound like a mature person? [/] [:"red"]""I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do........I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I canbnot carry it out"? [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Norman said:

What I am saying is that Paul was converted when he wrote R7 and what he's describing is the fight with the flesh that we all go through until we are converted.

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Unconverted people don't fight the flesh...they are in harmony with it! The mind and the flesh have the same goals....That's very Biblical.

Also, Paul is speaking in the present tense....He is speaking for the believer with respect to the spirit of the law.

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The word in the Greek mean both what is written in the the KJV and turn again. Which means it's left up to the context of the passage to determine the proper translation. To me they mean the same.

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That idea is called yo-yo salvation....I'm converted...I'm unconverted...I'm converted...I'm unconverted...

Or I'm saved, I'm unsaved. There's no such thing....If we persistently reject Chirst we are finished - there's no coming back! See Heb 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit [i.e., they have experienced the new birth - conversion], 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Wretched?????????? It's time you open your eyes to the true status of God's children, Rob.

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Gerry...I didn't ask about anyone but YOU! So please answer directly. Here's the question again:

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...are you suggesting, Gerry, that you are living His life?

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And number 2:

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Are you suggesting that up until the moment you accidentally sin that you were living Christ's selfless life?

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[Robert]

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [sins of repetition] to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. [AA 560]

Gerry…even if you lived a perfect life from here on you would be fulfilling less than 1/3 the requirement of the law. You see the law demands 3 things:

1] Perfect, unblemished righteousness!

2] The 2nd death to those who miss the mark….

3] Immortality and perfect sinlessness in nature!

You haven’t fulfilled 2 and 3…so that leaves 1. Even here you are failing….So there’s no way that in the law’s eyes that you are anything but wretched.

Yes… “In Christ” God sees you through His Son…but that’s “in Christ”! Thank God that in The Beloved we stand perfect in all three areas mentioned above. That’s Paul’s point in Romans seven….

• The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, [:"red"]"Ye are complete in Him."[:"black"] Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.[FW 107]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob, I have to disagree when you say that unconverted people don't have to fight the flesh. God calls us all at every step in our lives. What about the addicts, they are struggling to do what is right and good but they have no strength, been there and done that. You are speaking theoretically and not experientially when you say that. I have been there and I know all too well the struggle. Wanting to do good but not able to do it. I had no control over myself and I desperately wanted to stop the pain. It got to the point that I attempted to take my life three times. Please don't tell me that unconverted people don't struggle with the flesh. There maybe some who are just plain wicked and have no conscience that have no struggle with the flesh, but there are many who do. I have been one and I know many.

Today I don't struggle with the flesh anywhere near the way I used to. My goal is to be as willing as I can be, so that when I God calls me to do something I will just do it by the indwelling Spirit of His Son. This is being worked out in me now. As I have stated in another post, I have started to do things that I couldn't do before (fasting one day a week) and eating the way God intended for us to eat. I still have a ways to go but my spirituality is growing, not just knowledge, but my love for God is invigorating me. I have experienced this before where I was completely given to do God's will; I held nothing back and experienced God's power as never before. I loved God with all my being. It was during that time that God revealed truth to me. I did not set out to find doctrine that suited my ideas, it was just revealed to me as I studied, in my sleep and through out my waking hours.

This lasted for months, but I got off track somewhere and I have been slowly moving back to that experience with God as He guides me. So when I discuss this with you I'm not talking theory but from experience. In all honesty I was too busy doing God's will to have time to struggle with the flesh. What ever temptation came my way I just thanked God that I could see it and praised Him that I was now free and no longer in bondage, having to give in to my flesh! I had victory!

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That idea is called yo-yo salvation....I'm converted...I'm unconverted...I'm converted...I'm unconverted...

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You've got me confused here Rob. Peter was told by Jesus that when he was converted or turned again (same thing)to strengthen his brothers. At some point Peter had to be unconverted right? When he was converted he was able to strengthen his brothers because of his deep failure.

"Peter was naturally forward and impulsive, and Satan had taken advantage of these characteristics to overthrow him. Just before the fall of Peter, Jesus had said to him, "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:31, 32. That time had now come, and the transformation in Peter was evident. The close, testing questions of the Lord had not called out one forward, self-sufficient reply; and because of his humiliation and repentance, Peter was better prepared than ever before to act as shepherd to the flock." DA P 814

There's nothing there that suggests Peter was yoyo-ing, not then or ever after and I wasn't suggesting that.

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For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit [i.e., they have experienced the new birth - conversion], 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

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Rob you're slipping, that text is talking about those who have once had the truth and then rejected it continually and went back to the old sacrificial system. This thought is repeated in ch 10. It's a falling away from Christ and going back to the old covenant putting His sacrifice and Him to open shame, basically saying to Christ, "I don't want your sacrifice I want to offer bulls and goats". The following verses tell us that this is a gradual process.

Heb 6:7 “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak"

Notice how Paul brings out his point "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that comes oft upon it" By this he is tell us that this rejection is not a one time thing but a gradual rejection of the Gospel and going back to the old covenant sacrifices. This same rain, which is truth brought to the heart and mind by the Spirit, is rejected and then causes them bear briars and thorns; they are rejected and are nigh unto cursing and whos end is to be burned. The context here is not what you are thinking it is.

It's late and I must go to bed, I still have to work on Part 2 but have been busy replying to your posts, which is good, but I really have to work on that because I believe it will be of great help.

Norman

[Robert]

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I have to disagree when you say that unconverted people don't have to fight the flesh

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Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath....

The mind and the flesh are in harmony....

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God calls us all at every step in our lives. What about the addicts, they are struggling to do what is right and good but they have no strength, been there and done that.

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Calling is one thing...it is when the Spirit is received that we begin to change....He has to have permission and that is done by first accepting Christ.

Of course addicts want to be free of their addiction, but they got that way because of the flesh. They hate their addiction...not their flesh. On the other hand Christians hate their life indwelt by the flesh!

"He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Wretched?????????? It's time you open your eyes to the true status of God's children, Rob.

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Gerry...I didn't ask about anyone but YOU! So please answer directly. Here's the question again:

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...are you suggesting, Gerry, that you are living His life?

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And number 2:

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Are you suggesting that up until the moment you accidentally sin that you were living Christ's selfless life?

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[:"blue"]I am mimicking His life & tracing His footprints. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

What's a besetting sin? Is it something that you do intentionally/willfully/premeditatively? Or is it something that happens before it has even registered in your will?

The righteousness that God works in you to will & to do is not a righteousness the believer can in any way shape or form take credit for! It is God's work! To live by faith and have the faith of Jesus is walking with God so that God can accomplish His work in the believer. And yes, there is no stopping place in this process in which one can say, I have attained.

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Rob, I hope your day was good.

I have been listening and reading Romans for a while now and today I listened to R7 from the CEV. It basically said what you're saying and if I didn't go any further I would have thought that it was right on. The problem came when I listened to R8. It just contradicted R7 so badly and in the end made a mess of the context R7.

Listen to it for yourself and see what I mean.

R7 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207;&version=46;

R8 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=46;

What I have learned in the past and see happening here is the contradiction of translations. I read, study and use the KJV for all doctrine. It seems that other versions contradict it. I have read that, seen it in the past and see it here as we discuss R7.

But even as I look at R7 other versions and read on through R8 I still come up with the same conclusion that I get in R7.

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Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath....

The mind and the flesh are in harmony....

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Yes, the mind and flesh are in harmony, but there it's a losing battle for them. They cannot overcome. Rob, just ask anyone you work with or know that are not Christians, who live after the flesh, if they have any struggles with morality, or some of the things you struggle with. You will quickly find out that, the theory that the unconverted have no struggles with the flesh is not reality. That's why they are called children of wrath, because the law works wrath. They are easily angered because they can never overcome. They are also called children of disobedience. The wise display the characteristics of wisdom, the disobedient display the characteristics of disobedient and the children of wrath display the characteristics of anger because the law works or produces wrath (anger) and frustration. The psychological effects of not being able to overcome produce frustration and anger. We all have an inner sense of right and wrong, even if we don't know the Lord. Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The Gentiles here is talking about those who don't know the Lord or the law. How could I have missed that? I just saw this. I guess because I've been told in the past that this applies to people who live in the jungle or some far land where the Gospel has not been preached. But I see now that it means anyone who does not know the Lord or the law.

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Of course addicts want to be free of their addiction, but they got that way because of the flesh. They hate their addiction...not their flesh. On the other hand Christians hate their life indwelt by the flesh!

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Rob, I was an addict and my problem was not drinking it was me that I hated and I just happened to use alcohol as the drug of my choice to sooth the pain of failure, not because I couldn't stop drinking but because I couldn't do anything right. Any recovering addict with understanding will tell you the same thing. Rob, what you're doing is basing thoughts on theory, not reality.

There are struggles for all of God's creation, the go right along and do the things that their flesh and Satan temp them with but they most hate it. I have met many people as a guitarist when I played clubs and when I'd go to strip clubs who were completely unhappy with their lives. They wanted to do better but they didn't know how. This is reality, this is going on today and that is why we are called. So that we can bring the message of salvation and freedom in Christ tom these lost enslaved souls.

Take care and God bless

Norman

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

I am mimicking His life & tracing His footprints.

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Gerry...that sounds like a lawyer's answer!

What I ask was, "are you...living His life?" Let me use EGW to explain:

If you are living Christ's life "There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

What's a besetting sin?

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Good question!

Answer: "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing." Rom 7:19 NIV

Please remember what EGW states: "Through sin [i.e., the love of self/pride] the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil."

Therefore "unless we become vitally connected with God, we [i.e., we believers] cannot resist the unhallowed effects of self-indulgence, self-love, and temptation to sin."

How are we to do this?

"You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin [besetting sins]. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair."

Why not? Because to the one whom wants to do good, but fails many times..."There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." [Romans 8:1]

Let's continue:

"...You cannot change your heart [i.e., desires], you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him."

How?

"You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure."

So the trick in living the Christian life is "Not I, but Christ". That means instead of trying to tell the flesh no, we say, "God...I can't, here's my will...you do it!" When we do this God overrides the flesh and its desires. The trick is to do this consistently!

Besides this we are growing....So we never are measuring up during this process. This growth occurs as we learn to walk in the Spirit...something no one has down perfectly.

Rob

[Robert]

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We all have an inner sense of right and wrong, even if we don't know the Lord

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To an limited extent.... However, by nature we do not know that "self-love" is sin! It seems so natural to love self. All of us do it, daily...Christians included (hence, we fall short).

Our love for ourselves is obvious! It is evident by the fact that we go to whatever lengths necessary to care for our every whim.

Jesus says, that is how you must love your neighbor. His concerns are to be your concerns. His burdens are to be your burdens. His problems are to be your problems. His joys are to be your joys. And his needs are to be your needs--your needs to meet. In short, your neighbor's happiness and welfare are to be the object of your ambition.

That's why I quoted EGW....Please note the bold:

“…There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

“The Prince of heaven [Jesus] came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life, a life that would be an example for all human beings. He lived a life free from self-seeking, [how?] wholly given to the service of others.”

Now, just because we "fall short" of God's love expressed in agape love doesn't mean we should indulge the flesh.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

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To an limited extent.... However, by nature we do not know that "self-love" is sin! It seems so natural to love self. All of us do it, daily...

Christians included

(hence, we fall short).

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That's the problem that we have and I believe we Christians must overcome. I know we can but we don't understand what is available to us.

I will share part 3 of my 4 part response. It is more appropriate at this time than part 2.

Part 3 - Sin

I have come to the realization that sin is a multifaceted problem. There is a root cause however that I believe we must all understand or we’ll have a very difficult time overcoming it. I have shared this here before in a limited way but will do so again in order to explain my position on R7.

Sin is missing the mark, I have heard that and you have as well. Sin is the transgression of the law, we have heard that too. Let’s reverse those to see what comes up. Not missing the mark is not sinning and not transgressing is not sinning. With these reversed definitions (which we subconsciously assume they mean that) we will try not to miss the mark and not to transgress and we’ll actually deceive ourselves into thinking that we are doing ok. Sin deceives us and by the commandment makes us spiritually dead. Meaning, we try to do good (keep the law) in order to not sin and we think that we can do this and believe we are doing well. Then one day we realize that the law is of a spiritual nature. Then we give up on trying to please God in order to be righteous and start living by faith that works through our love for Christ, serving Him through the mind. Then your selfish nature no longer controls your life, although it is still there. But if you define sin as Jesus did, unbelief: John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;” you can see how this actually happens.

The Holy Spirit will come and reprove the world of sin because they believe not of Jesus. Now let’s look at that in reverse and see what we come up with. If you believe you will not sin. That is truth, whatever is not of faith is sin, for it is impossible to please God without faith. Now that takes us in a whole other direction than the other 2 definitions alone did. Not that the others are wrong but they are partial. Notice 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. “

Note the word also denotes that if you sin you are also transgressing the law. That makes perfect sense. If you don’t believe that a loving God has sent Jesus, then you don’t have the Spirit of His Son and if you don’t have the Spirit of Jesus, you cannot represent Him nor can you overcome and will continue to struggle and you will transgress continually. That’s how I see the R7 man.

Let’s look at one example: Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. It started with Eve not believing in the goodness and love of God and the result was that she believed the lie about God and then transgressed the law of God. Basically you can’t separate these. If you don’t believe in Christ you will transgress and you will miss the mark.

Now I say this because you have been using “Missing the mark” and “falling short” only as the definition of sin. (Correct me if I’m wrong) If you hold to these definitions only then you will have no choice but to see R7 as Paul describing himself as a converted man constantly missing the mark or falling short and struggling not able to do the good he wants to do. But if you see sin as not believing which leads to transgression, missing the mark and falling short, then you begin to understand that R7 in a different light.

You will serve God by faith, (spiritually) and your actions will change from constant transgression, missing the mark, and falling short to obedience in the spirit which leads to victory over the flesh, basically keeping the law and serving in newness of the Spirit. Rom 1:9 “For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;”

It does not lead to perfection and sinlessness, but it does lead us to the point where we cannot be deceived about the character of God in Christ. Christ’s purpose for us in this life is not perfection but loving Him and others perfectly. Only as we see Him and believe in that love for us can we be changed by the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. We either serve in the newness of life (empowered by the Spirit, with love in confidence of our salvation) or we serve by the letter of the law (through our own strength trying to attain our own righteousness not know the righteousness of God) But one thing is sure, we cannot serve both. Therefore Paul states, Rom 7:25 “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

The proper understanding of sin will help us overcome. Also, when we stop taking on guilt that doesn't belong to us we will be encourage and be better able to fight the fight of faith.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Then your selfish nature no longer controls your life

, although it is still there.

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I don't buy that....For one the Holy Spirit doesn't just take over. He has to have our full consent. Why? Because God's love can't force...it can't coerce! Learning to walk in the Spirit is the work of a lifetime.

BTW Paul never said that his selfish nature no longer controlled him. Yes...he said that he was mature, but he said he wasn't perfect. Someone who is no longer under the control of his flesh is perfect. He is perfectly keeping the whole of God's law while in sinful flesh - just like Christ.

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... you have been using “Missing the mark” and “falling short” only as the definition of sin. (Correct me if I’m wrong)

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"Falling short" is not a definition of sin, rather it is the reality of indwelling sin! Sin is essentially "self-love".

Here, let me quote someone:

• Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). [The Dynamics of the Everlasting Gospel, By E.H. “Jack” Sequeira, Chapter 1 – The Sin Problem]

What do you think?

Rob

[Robert]

Norman,

Let's go over an EGW statement point by point. This may shed light on our conundrum:

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary,"

There's no doubt that EGW is speaking of believers...she says it! Note the things they do, which she compares to "incense"....Prayer, praise and the confession of sin.

"but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity , they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God."

The phrase, "corrupt channels of humanity" must refer to our fallen, sinful humanity indwelt with "the law of sin" - the principle of "self"! Let's read on:

"They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God."

What is she referring to when she states, "they ascend not..."? Well, what's the context? "The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin...." What's wrong with these actions that they are not acceptable to God?

"All incense from earthly tabernacles [i.e., our fallen, humanity] must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ."

WHY?

"He [Jesus] holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, [:"red"]in which there is no taint of earthly corruption."[:"black"]

What is this "earthly corruption"? I say it is the love of self...the basis of all sinning! Let's go on:

"He [Jesus] gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts [:"red"]His own spotless righteousness [:"black"]. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

Now notice her next statement!

• "Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, [:"blue"]in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving[:"black"], must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat." [1SM 344]

Did you get that? Our “self-seeking/self-love” is found even in our obedience!!!! Our obedience isn't pure.... Hence, as Paul stated, we "fall short" of God's selfless love!

What do you think? In that respect aren’t we wretched sinners?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

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BTW Paul never said that his selfish nature no longer controlled him. Yes...he said that he was mature, but he said he wasn't perfect. Someone who is no longer under the control of his flesh is perfect. He is perfectly keeping the whole of God's law while in sinful flesh - just like Christ.

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1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. KJV

1Co 9:27 but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved. YLT

Having control over your flesh does not mean perfection; in this sense it means that you are no longer a slave to the flesh. To live after its desires and it's lust because those who do will die.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body , ye shall live. That's talking about not letting the flesh control you. Come on Rob, how can you not see that? Just because someone controls their flesh that does not mean they are perfect. I agree with the EGW statement and I understand what it means. Even if I were perfect from this day on, that is not what saves me. Jesus saves me. So having the flesh under control by the Spirit is gives me nothing to boast about. First of all, because it's not me but Christ in me through His Spirit and second because no one will get to heaven by the works of the law or by any good works. Control of the flesh is a love response to God and how we exhibit to the universe and this earth that God has the power to change our characters in this sinful bodies (thereby condemning sin in the flesh in us who have the Spirit of Christ) and at the same time this does not entitle us to heaven, how can it, when it is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in us doing of His good pleasure.

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I don't buy that....For one the Holy Spirit doesn't just take over. He has to have our full consent. Why? Because God's love can't force...it can't coerce! Learning to walk in the Spirit is the work of a lifetime

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What I'm saying here is that this is a response to God's love, I did not intend to say that God takes over and we don't have a say. In context of what I am saying this happens only as we let the Spirit of God lead us.

I agree that we are born selfish and self-seeking; we have to be because we are born without the knowledge of God. But when we see God as He truly is and believe the love that He has for us; then we are then born again. Then there is, if we consent, a change in us and the more we see of God the greater the change in us. But one thing is for sure there is a change from selfishness to selflessness, if that does not take place there is no conversion. Time will prove these words to be painfully true for many.

"The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches ”He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing". DA 676

Only as we let the Spirit guide us and live through us can this take place. We still have the flesh, but it is kept under subjection. This is to bring fruit to God and win souls to His kingdom.

There is no time during this life time, that we will be perfect, that is not my issue. There is no time in during this life that we will not be tempted or any time when we can say I am sinless, neither are those my issues. This we agree upon. I am positive that we can gain the victory over the flesh and its desires. Having said that, it doesn't mean that we will never fall. Although it will happen less and less as God reveals Himself to us and works in us as we lovingly but daily consent. None of this makes us holy or deserving in God's sight. Our works of love by the Holy Spirit are a witness for the glory of God to all. They don't make us anything except the vessel of God that He may do with us as He pleases or of His good pleasure.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

1 Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. KJV

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I'm not sure what Paul is speaking of....I looked at the context...maybe gluttony? Anyway, notice he doesn't say, "I keep under [control] my flesh."

Let's go to a clear statement: Phil 3:10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Paul clearly states that he was not perfect! Now Christ as man lived a perfect life in sinful flesh. He never gave over to its desires...He never coveted anything for Himself. He lived and loved all, especially His enemies. That's perfection!

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Having control over your flesh does not mean perfection; in this sense it means that you are no longer a slave to the flesh.

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Christ had control over "the flesh" and He was perfect....Your above statement is contradictory.

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Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do

mortify the deeds of the body

, ye shall live. That's talking about not letting the flesh control you. Come on Rob, how can you not see that? Just because someone controls their flesh that does not mean they are perfect.

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NIV: For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

The man of Romans 7 is not "living" for the flesh. It is not his desire to be controlled by His nature. He delights in the spirit of God's law, but he finds himself failing. Is there any condemnation for such a person? Romans 8:1 says NO!

We must explore what Paul means by "live for the flesh".

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him."

Gal 5:20 I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

What is a practiced sin...one I do over and over? No, that could be a besetting sin...a sin of habit or an unknown sin.

A practiced sin is,

1] One I know to be sin.

2] One which I refuse to repent of...

Proof?

1 John 1:7 "if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." That is, we are clothed in His righteousness!

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Very clear statement. At no time are we fully free from the love of self. Hence, we have sin in our life. Yes, we grow, but we are not free of "self" totally.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

By acknowledging our sins Christ has a legal right to forgive us and to present us perfect in Him! Proof? Okay:

Col 1:22 He [Jesus] has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him [God the Father] holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if [you perfectly keep the law? No...] IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel [the 2nd coming] that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

So we see that a "practiced sin" is a sin known to you, but one you have persistently chosen to ignore and not repent of. You are saying, "God, that's not sin and therefore I don't need you to represent me in Yourself."

Verse 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us...

Why? All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...Rom 3:23

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I agree with the EGW statement and I understand what it means. Even if I were perfect from this day on, that is not what saves me.

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Actually, Norman, to be true to the context salvation by obedience is not even being discussed. EGW is making the point that none of us are truly measuring up....That's all!

Since that is the case then Paul's statement in Romans 7:24 must apply to the believer.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time...so don't take any of this personal.

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [sins of repetition] to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say,

I have fully attained.

[AA 560]

Gerry…even if you lived a perfect life from here on you would be fulfilling less than 1/3 the requirement of the law. You see the law demands 3 things:

1] Perfect, unblemished righteousness!

2] The 2nd death to those who miss the mark….

3] Immortality and perfect sinlessness in nature!

You haven’t fulfilled 2 and 3…so that leaves 1. Even here you are failing….So there’s no way that in the law’s eyes that you are anything but wretched.

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[:"blue"]That's the legalist's point of view. But here is what does our gracious God say?

[:"red"]"If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill ALL the requirements of God's law. ....Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements." Rom 13:8&10 NLT

"He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.... Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." NASB

"When you love others, you complete what the law has been after all along.....You can't go wrong when you love others. When you add up everything in the law code, the sum total is love." The Message

[/]God is less interested in the amount of work and energy that one puts out as the spirit with which it is done. To the legalist Pharisees, the widow's mite was nothing compared to the large offerings of the rich Sadducees and Pharisees. But Jesus commended it as the greater offering because it came from the heart. [/]

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Yes… “In Christ” God sees you through His Son…but that’s “in Christ”! Thank God that in The Beloved we stand perfect in all three areas mentioned above. That’s Paul’s point in Romans seven….

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[:"blue"]How could that be his point? How can God consider the man of R7 as justified, perfect, when the man himself acknowledges that he is, "carnal, sold under sin," does not understand what he is doing, does not practice what he knows to be good, but rather does the very thing he hates, acknowledges that sin still dwells in him, acknowledges he is still wretched and in need of deliverance?

Paul explicitly states in Rom 8 that the converted person is [:"red"] not of the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." [/] That , [:"red"]"If you live according to the flesh [i.e. doing what the flesh tells you to do like the man of R7], you will die." Rom 8:9,13 NKJ [/] [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Paul explicitly states in Rom 8 that the converted person is [:"red"]

not of the flesh

but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." [/] That , [:"red"]"If you live according to the flesh [i.e. doing what the flesh tells you to do like the man of R7], you will die." Rom 8:9,13 NKJ [/] [/]

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Your interpretation is wrong because,

1] You overlook the context of chapter 7 & 8 and

2] You do not understand the gospel.

As always Gerry, you are still in the camp of legalism. Yes, I know, you deny this...but if it walks like a duck - if it looks like a duck - if it quacks like a duck, well...it must be a duck!

Let me help:

In Romans 7:7-14 Paul discusses the spirit of the law. He defines sin as self-seeking [coveting]. That's when he makes his statement...His conclusion? "We [believers] know that the law is spiritual; but I [the believer] am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."

In Romans 7:15 up through verse 24 he proves this fact. Then in Romans 8:1 he lets us know that even through we are failing to fully live the good life that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

The man in Romans 7 is not trying to live for the flesh. No, "He delights in God's law according to the inward man." Remember that God looks at the intent of the heart and not so much our actual performance. If He went solely by performance, well, I am afraid none of us would make it!