Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

NIV: For if

you live

according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

The man of Romans 7 is not "living" for the flesh. It is not his desire to be controlled by His nature. He delights in the spirit of God's law, but he finds himself failing. Is there any condemnation for such a person? Romans 8:1 says NO!

---

[:"blue"]How can you quote Rom 8:13 which plainly says, [:"red"]"if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die...." and then boldly proclaim the man of R7 who is "carnal, sold under sin", cannot do what he wills because he still under the power of sin, and is still wretched & in need of deliverance? [/] [/]

Quote:

---

We must explore what Paul means by "live for the flesh".

---

[:"blue"]Can you please tell me what verse this phrase you have in quotes found in? [/]

Quote:

---

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God

practices

sin, because His seed abides in him."

Gal 5:20 I have forewarned you that those

who practice

such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

What is a practiced sin...one I do over and over? No, that could be a besetting sin...a sin of habit or an unknown sin.

A practiced sin is,

1] One I know to be sin.

2] One which I refuse to repent of...

---

[:"blue"]Sooooooo, as long as I say I'm soooo sorrrryyyy, I can keep on shorting the gov't on my taxes, keep on renting porno videos, keep on shorting the Lord on my tithe, etc. etc.? [/]

Quote:

---

Proof?

1 John 1:7 "if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,

and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin

." That is, we are clothed in His righteousness!

---

[:"blue"]Is that what cleansing from sin means? Just God covering your filth with clean garments? Here is what "Enhanced Strong's Lexicon" has to say about it. "Cleanses", Gk katharizo means, 1. to make clean, cleanse 1A from physical stains and dirt 1A1 utensils, food 1A2 a leper, to cleanse by curing 1A3 to remove by cleansing 1B in a moral sense 1B1 to free from defilement of sin and faults 1B2 to purify from wickedness 1B3 to free from the guilt of sin, purify [/]

Quote:

---

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Very clear statement. At no time are we fully free from the love of self. Hence, we have sin in our life. Yes, we grow, but we are not free of "self" totally.

---

[:"blue"]Is that what John is saying? That sin is a continuing reality in the life of the believer?

He himself says, [:"red"]"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.....No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 Jn 3:6,9 NIV. [/]

Paul says the same thing, [:"red"]"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? CERTAINLY NOT! How shall we who died to sin?" Rom 6:1.2 NKJ [/] [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

---

"If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill ALL the requirements of God's law. ....Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements." Rom 13:8&10 NLT

---

Paul is presenting the law as a standard of Christian living. He isn't saying that just because one doesn't commit adultery or murder, or steal, or covet [in the limited sense] that he is fulfilling the whole of the law.

The spirit of the law demands that “You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Here Paul fell short (see Romans 7/Phil 3). Gal chapter five is clearer on this subject:

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free.

Free from what? Context:

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery [the law]. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision [a command under the Torah - The book of the law], Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Now back to verse 13: But do not use your freedom [from under the law] to indulge the sinful nature [live for it as the ungodly]; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Why the counsel? Paul was dealing with legalism with the Galatians....It is legalism and self-righteousness that causes "biting and devouring"! In legalism you're always pointing the finger...your saying, "I more righteous...that fellow is a sinner. He needs to keep the law like I do."

So again, Paul isn't saying that just because we keep the letter of the law we are fulfilling it...he is just making a point that love, in general, fulfills the law while we live under grace.

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Quote:

---

"If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill ALL the requirements of God's law. ....Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements." Rom 13:8&10 NLT

---

Paul is presenting the law as a standard of Christian living. He isn't saying that just because one doesn't commit adultery or murder, or steal, or covet [in the limited sense] that he is fulfilling the whole of the law.

Quote:

---

[:"blue"]Oh, oh. I thought you said the law is NOT a standard, that Christ is THE standard.

No, Paul is saying IF YOU LOVE you are fulfilling the law! I can never love to the same degree of perfect love that God has. NONE of His

creatures

can. But we can imitate/mimic that love, and God, according to Paul, accepts that as fulfillment of the law. A God of grace cannot require of man what he can't give. But man through the indwelling Spirit CAN return love. That is the POWER of the gospel. [/]

[Robert]

Quote:

---

I can never love

to the same degree of perfect love that God has

. NONE of His creatures can. But we can imitate/mimic that love, and God, according to Paul, accepts that as fulfillment of the law.

---

Then you are falling short! As far as the law in concerned you are 100% sinner...because it doesn't pass out partial credit!

Thank you - maybe there's hope for your theology yet!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Rob it's late and I can't reply like I'd like tonight or should I say this morning, but one quick point I want to make. What about those who were burned at the stake? Some of them long ago had the choice of renouncing their beliefs or be burned alive. They chose to be burned alive. To me that's an awful huge statement, backed by fruit, that they made. They were saying, "I am at the point in my walk with Christ that I don't care if I die." That is selfless love. Remember that without love even giving your body to be burned will not profit you anything. These reformers gave their all and to me that is a glistening example of complete selflessness. When we love Christ more than our own lives we will be able to do the same. That is controlling the flesh, because the flesh in no way wants to die. The flesh is afraid of death and wants to live for itself although it doesn't know that it's method of living leads to death,(Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" The decision to give your body as a sacrifice doesn't come overnight. It comes as a result of a life that is accustomed to following the Spirit in mortifying the deeds of the flesh and keeping the flesh under control.

Quote:

---

The man of Romans 7 is not "living" for the flesh.

---

The man described in R7 is in bondage to the flesh. Not able to do the good he want to do but does the evil he does not want to do. That is bondage; I don't even live like that. If you were to follow me around for a month you would have to say that the person in R7 is not like me. Ask those who know me. Does that mean I am perfect? Nope. Does that mean I am sinless? Nope. Does it mean that I have attained the pinnacle of Christianity? No. It means that I have been blessed to able to understand that the more you love God, the more you will do His will and avoid those things that detract from a sound relationship and cause guilt. God keep revealing His love to us all, what we do with this knowledge will cause us to become more selfless or more selfish. The R7 man that Paul is describing is living in the cycle of sin, guilt and repentance, under the control of the flesh.

Talk at ya late my friend.

Norman

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

I am mimicking His life & tracing His footprints.

---

Gerry...that sounds like a lawyer's answer!

What I ask was, "are you...living His life?" Let me use EGW to explain:

If you are living Christ's life "There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

---

[:"blue"]We've gone through your definition of 'self-seeking before, which is being homeless & propertyless, and educationless because these represent all the trappings of self-seeking in your view, so let's not rehash it again. We are commanded to love others as we love ourselves, not love others better than ourselves. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Quote:

---

I can never love

to the same degree of perfect love that God has

. NONE of His creatures can. But we can imitate/mimic that love, and God, according to Paul, accepts that as fulfillment of the law.

---

Then you are falling short! As far as the law in concerned you are 100% sinner...because it doesn't pass out partial credit!

Thank you - maybe there's hope for your theology yet!

---

[:"blue"]Soooooooooo, since the unfallen angels are creatures too, and therefore can only imitate God's love also and never be able to love to the same degree that God loves,[finite creatures can never be like the infinite God in every respect] they are therefore falling short according to your theology and therefore 100% wretched sinners!!!!!

Paul says, "he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law." It doesn't say "partially fulfilled the law."

And why are you so concerned about credit? Does the believer claim credit for something that God does? Does the believer claim credit for the righteousness that he receives by faith [justification]? Can he lay claim for the righteousness that he lives by faith [sanctification]? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

The spirit of the law demands that “You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Here Paul fell short (see Romans 7/Phil 3). Gal chapter five is clearer on this subject:

---

[:"blue"]How can the believer not fulfill the spiritual demands of the law if he/she is indwelt by the Holy Spirit? [:"red"]"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." Rom 8:9 NIV [/]Then when the Holy Spirit is dwelling within, [:"red"]"the righteous requirements of the law...[are]..fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. ......Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Rom 8:4,8 NIV [/]

How can the believer not please God, i.e. fulfill the requirements of the law if he/she is controlled by and loving in, the Spirit? [/]

Quote:

---

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free.

Free from what? Context:

Gal 5:1 It

was for freedom

that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery [the law]. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision [a command under the Torah - The book of the law], Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision,

that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Now back to verse 13: But do not use your freedom [from under the law]

to indulge the sinful nature

[live for it as the ungodly]; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Why the counsel? Paul was dealing with legalism with the Galatians....It is legalism and self-righteousness that causes "biting and devouring"! In legalism you're always pointing the finger...your saying, "I more righteous...that fellow is a sinner. He needs to keep the law like I do."

---

[:"blue"]That is just one side of legalism. The other side of the legalist coin is to demand payment of what is owed beyong what the debtor can deliver because the law says so!!!

Let me give you an illustration. Over the years I have had a dislike for cats since childhood. About 12 yrs ago I took pity on a cat that was just a few days old and was abandoned by the road. I took pity on it and took it home. It was so full of fleas, so I put the kitty under water with just the head above water. All the fleas came to the head and I could pick them off one by one. Perhaps the cat thought I was trying to drown it because to this day it has never taken a real liking to me. It would never come and sit on my lap like she does to my wife. But after a few years, whenever I woke up in the morning and put my feet down on the floor, there she would be, rubbing herself against my feet and allowing me to rub her with my feet. But as soon as I bend over to pick her up, she's gone like a shot.

Now, I would very like that cat to love me a lot more than just coming to my feet in the morning, but if that is all that it is capable of doing, how can I demand more than it can deliver? [/]

Quote:

---

So again, Paul isn't saying that just because we keep the letter of the law we are fulfilling it...he is just making a point that love, in general, fulfills the law while we live under grace.

---

[:"blue"]That is what I have been trying to tell you!!! The spirit of the law is to love. The believer indwelt by the Spirit of love can't help but love. But because he/she is a finite creature, that love can never be of the same degree as the God of infinite love, but God accepts that finite love as fully meeting the requirements of the law of love. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

---

They were saying, "I am

at the point in my walk with Christ

that I don't care if I die." That is selfless love.

---

The bold part sounds legalistic. I don't think they were thinking that way.

I will never be at a point where I am good enough....But, if my faith is in Christ's righteousness for my ticket to heaven, then being killed is just a short nap for me. Yeah...it might hurt going to sleep, but again, if my faith is in His righteousness, then so be it.

Legalists are afraid to die. They have no peace, no assurance...and no they will not admit it, but they know they aren't measuring up.

Yes, willing to die for Christ is a fruit from the Spirit...but it is more of faith issue than if I'm good enough to die now!

Quote:

---

Remember that without love even giving your body to be burned will not profit you anything. These reformers gave their all and to me that is a glistening example of complete selflessness.

---

Let's look at the context:

1 Cor 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love [agape love], I gain nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

In other words if I do all the right things outwardly, even surrendering myself to the flames, if I don't have agape, I gain nothing....I.E., that wouldn't get me in heaven. Why? Well, what is love:

verse 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking....

Now was Paul, the author of this letter, measuring up?

Verse 9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes [Jesus - at the 2nd coming], the partial [or the imperfect] will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

When Paul was a Pharisee he thought like a child....He thought his law righteousness was blameless. But when he became the great champion of justification by faith he reasoned as a man.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part....

That verse 12 is very important to the context of Paul's letter. Here are some other translations:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.[RSV]

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. [NIV]

You see if you don't perfectly understand God's love then you can never perfectly mimic (as Gerry states) that love.

Does Paul agree?

1 Cor 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [his love] [note: we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror], are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Yes...we grow and we do this by examining God's love, especially through the cross. Looking at the law produces legalism. So while we look to Christ we grow, but, as EGW states, we will never attain to perfection this side of eternity.

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

I am mimicking His life & tracing His footprints.

---

Gerry...that sounds like a lawyer's answer!

What I ask was, "are you...living His life?" Let me use EGW to explain:

If you are living Christ's life "There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

---

We've gone through your definition of 'self-seeking before, which is being homeless & propertyless, and educationless because these represent all the trappings of self-seeking in your view, so let's not rehash it again.

---

No..let's because that is where you are in error!

Christ didn't won't to be homeless...He didn't desire to be in poverty. That was the result of a selfless man living in selfish world! If you live for others in this world you will be last. Why? Satan has invented a system totally built on the principle of "self-seeking"! Hence "all that is in the world" without exception is founded on this principle.

Let me quote EGW:

"Christ's life on earth teaches that to obtain the higher education does not mean to gain popularity, to secure worldly advantage [$$$]....

Did you get that, Doc? Your education wasn't all for the other guy...you had Gerry in mind! You love Gerry...Gerry first, then I'll help others...but the big stuff is mine, mine, mine!

Sorry, that makes you a sinner....Christ was never like that. The evidence? He was homeless because He cared only for others...including His enemies. I guess you fall short, huh?

Let's continue: "to have all the temporal wants abundantly supplied, and to be honored by the titled and wealthy of earth.....

What does Paul say? 1 Tim 6:8 "if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

"His life rebukes all self-seeking. As He went about doing good He made plain the character of God's law and the nature of His service." [CT 34]

[Robert]

“He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly [not partially] given to the service of others.” [EGW]

“The Saviour lived not to please Himself. In His life there was not trace of selfishness. Though in a world that He himself had created, He claimed no part of it as His home. "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests," He said; "but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head." [EGW]

Again, in that respect...i.e., with the spirit of the law in mind, we can truly say:

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

not much time today either, but will make a few comments.

Quote:

---

Quote:

They were saying, "I am at the point in my walk with Christ that I don't care if I die." That is selfless love.

The bold part sounds legalistic. I don't think they were thinking that way.

---

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The opposite of love is selfeshness which is the same as being controlled by the flesh. It may sound legalistic but there's no way it is. Maybe in the way I worded it, but they were men and women of God who laid down their lives for Christ and the cause of Christ. I bring up Stephen again, he was completely selfless. His own words as he is being illegal murdered are, "Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

He had overcome the flesh and while he was being stoned to death, Saul was stoned in a spiritual sense. He was struck hard in his heart as he realized that his righteousness and his spirit was contrary to Stephens. In his mind he thought Stephen was a heretic against God and that he was for God. But his selfishness hit him like never before and then the battle was fierce in his soul. His flesh, the man who wanted to be righteous by works, was at war with the Spirit, the man who wanted to be like Stephen. His soul longed to be like Stephen but he was in bondage until Jesus set him free.

Quote:

---

You see if you don't perfectly understand God's love then you can never perfectly mimic (as Gerry states) that love.

---

That's what Christ's grace covers, those sins that we are not aware of. Then as we grow and learn more about God we see our our lack which then drives us to our knees thanking God for His mercy in revealing our sin and faults to us. Then that mercy leads us to repentance and a truly thankful heart will not repeat that sin. Then the process happens again where God reveals Himself to us more and we see our sins and faults. As this continues and as we love God more and more we become more and more willing to surrender our will to His and then God takes us through this process at a quicker rate. Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

Norman

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Norman said:

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life

for his friends.

---

John is making the same statement as Luke:

Luke 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

In other words the best man can do is die for a friend!

Turn to Romans 5:6 "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a just man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us..... 10...when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son...."

Human love IS NOT selfless.... Dying for a friend is conditional. Sinners can do that....

Norman - let's say that someone very close to you was brutally murdered. The guy is apprehended...but he absolutely shows no sorrow for what he has done. He hates you with a hate blacker than a moonless night.

You have two choices:

1] You can watch him hang for his crime, or

2] You can take his place.

But there's one catch: If you pick # 2 your death must be eternal....You must say goodbye to life forever so that your enemy can take your place....

Could you really do the 2nd one?

That's what Christ did to those who hated Him...to those who were torturing and murdering Him. He loved them more than himself. That's selfless love.

Quote:

---

That's what Christ's grace covers, those sins that we are not aware of.

---

That sounds like I do my best and Christ makes up for the unavoidable sins. Is this what you are stating?

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

To an limited extent.... However, by nature we do not know that "self-love" is sin! It seems so natural to love self. All of us do it, daily...Christians included (hence, we fall short).

---

[:"blue"]Could you please show us where in Scripture this is found where it says that it is sin to love yourself? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

We've gone through your definition of 'self-seeking before, which is being homeless & propertyless, and educationless because these represent all the trappings of self-seeking in your view, so let's not rehash it again.

---

No..let's because that is where you are in error!

Christ didn't won't to be homeless...He didn't desire to be in poverty. That was the result of a selfless man living in selfish world! If you live for others in this world you will be last. Why? Satan has invented a system totally built on the principle of "self-seeking"! Hence "all that is in the world" without exception is founded on this principle.

---

[:"blue"]Are you saying that in a world without selfishness no one will own anything?

[:"red"]"They shall build houses and inhabit them;

They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

They shall not build and another inhabit;

They shall not plant and another eat;

For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,

And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labor in vain." Isa 65:21-23 NKJ.

[/]

Here is Webster's definition of a self-seeker: a person who seeks only or mainly to further his or her own interests

Your problem is carrying into the extreme what God Himself does not require.

God's requirement is: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself", or as Christ also said, "love one another as I have loved you." Does not "one another" include one's self? [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Good day Rob I hope your day is a blessing to you and all those you meet.

Quote:

---

John is making the same statement as Luke:

Luke 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

---

That's not what Jesus was saying in John, you'll see as you read that Christ told them "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you", that is only possible through the Holy Spirit. What you wrote is true, human love can only love so far but this is not what the reformers had. They loved Christ and His cause with the love they received from the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy ...

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

As I read what you have written in the past few weeks, I am getting the impression that you are somehow not taking into consideration the powerful work that the Holy Spirit does in us when we surrender ourselves out of love and appreciation to God. In your responses, in general, you state that we are limited in what we can do. I agree, but only as we neglect the Holy Spirit's work in and through us.

What Luke wrote is completely different in context.

Quote:

---

But there's one catch: If you pick # 2 your death must be eternal....You must say goodbye to life forever so that your enemy can take your place....

Could you really do the 2nd one?

---

I can do nothing on my own, but with Christ in me I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. So to answer that, yes, but only as I dwell in Him and He in me. This we can do, and this has been done.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Not just to death but to the death, meaning the only true death which is the 2nd death. That's what God can do in us through His Siprit. Just like Moses who asked God to blot him out of His book if He could not spare the children of Israel.

Quote:

---

Quote:

That's what Christ's grace covers, those sins that we are not aware of.

That sounds like I do my best and Christ makes up for the unavoidable sins. Is this what you are stating?

---

I'll answer that with a question. Are you aware of all the sins that you commit in a day? Answer no, we are not because of our blindness. To be honest Rob, sincerely I thought that that is what you believed.

Norman

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Let me quote EGW:

"

Christ's life on earth

teaches

that to obtain the higher education does not mean to gain popularity, to secure worldly advantage [$$$]....

Did you get that, Doc? Your education wasn't all for the other guy...you had Gerry in mind! You love Gerry...Gerry first, then I'll help others...but the big stuff is mine, mine, mine!

---

[:"blue"]I didn't you could read the heart, Robert! As usual, you quote EGW only when she seems to back up what you are saying. Well, let's read further into what she had to say.

[:"red"]"Our FIRST duty toward God and to our fellow-beings is that of self-development.Every faculty which the Creator has endowed us should be cultivated to the highest degree of perfection, that we may be able to do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable." CTBH 42

"The development of all our powers is the first duty we owe to God and to our fellow men.. No one who is not growing daily in capability and usefulness is fulfilling the purpose of life. In making a profession of faith in Christ we pledge ourselves to become all that it is possible for us to be as workers for the Master, and we should cultivate every faculty to the highest degree of perfectionm, that we may do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable." COL 329,330. [/]

Robert, any Christian who is homeless, educationless, or propertyless is no witness to the power of the gospel. Such a person would loathed by people as a drag to society, only a consumer and has nothing to contribute to society.

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

As usual we have gotten off the subject of the thread, i.e. the man of Rom 7.

To summarize: The man of Rom 7 has the following characteristics.

1. Unspiritual, 7:14. A converted person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, 8:9.

2. Carnal, 7:14. A converted person is "not in the flesh but in the Spirit," 8:9

3. Sold under sin, a slave to sin, 7:14. A converted person is "no longer ...slaves of sin," 6:6, but slave of God, 6:22.

4. Can't resist sin, even when he wants to, 7:15-17. A converted person has experienced "the grace of God that brings salvation" that "teaches us to say "NO" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the bleswed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from ALL wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." Tit 2:11-14 NIV

5. Still indwelt by sin, telling him what to do, 7:17. A converted person is indwelt by the Sprit, 8:11, and by walking in the Spirit, no longer fulfills the lust of the flesh, Gal 5:16, but produces the fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22ff.

6. His body parts are still instruments of unrighteousness, 7:19-21. A converted person submits his body as instruments of righteousness, 6:19.

7. Even delights in the law of God even inwardly, but is incapable of obeying it, 7:22. A converted person is transformed when his mind is renewed by the Spirit when it is presented as a living sacrifice, 12:1,2, so that now he can say "No" to sin, Tit 2:12-14.

8. Wretched and in need of deliverance, 7:24. A converted person is no longer under the dominion of sin, 6:14, delivered by Jesus Christ our Lord, 6:24.

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

Quote:

---

To an limited extent.... However, by nature we do not know that "self-love" is sin! It seems so natural to love self. All of us do it, daily...Christians included (hence, we fall short).

---

[:"blue"]Could you please show us where in Scripture this is found where it says that it is sin to love yourself? [/]

Gerry

---

The essence of Lucifer’s sin was self-exaltation, what the Bible defines as iniquity, which in Hebrew means bent to self [isaiah 53:6]. Hence, the love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John 4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape.

The root meaning of “iniquity” is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition. Note the following texts:

Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

This concept can also be seen in Phil 2:21 “For they all seek their own, not the things of Jesus Christ. [ASV]

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” AND ACCORDING TO 1 COR 13:5 – “it [agape love] is not self-seeking. Therefore, according to the law, you must love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself!

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Norman said:

That's not what Jesus was saying in John...12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

---

The thing you must remember is that Christ loved us when we were His enemies....In other words He is saying, "Love like I love", but BTW...the greatest love you can produce is to die for a friend. I died when you hated me...when you were murdering Me."

I stand by what I said....

Quote:

---

As I read what you have written in the past few weeks, I am getting the impression that you are somehow not taking into consideration the powerful work that the Holy Spirit does in us when we surrender ourselves out of love and appreciation to God.

---

The work of the Spirit is limited to our cooperation...our surrender. As I stated before, God will never force His imparted righteousness on us because it is contrary to His agape love. Hence, "the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” [Mark 14:38]

Quote:

---

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto

the death.

---

That is future...you and I don't belong to this group! This remnant will also "have everything in common" as did the early Church. [Read Acts 2:44,45/Acts 4:32-34]

Quote:

---

To be honest Rob, sincerely I thought that that is what you believed.

---

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The just by faith will live.”

We are saved by faith from first to last....Your good works to not save even partially! EGW blasts this idea in Faith & Works:

• Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life

  for him."

Then why does God, in the judgment, examine our works? Does God take our pile of good works and compare it to our bad works to see which is greater? No...that is legalism!

If one has accepted the genuine gospel [the truth as it is "in Christ"] then that person will reflect genuine works of faith (even though they fall short). They are free from self-righteousness. To those who have accepted a false gospel, as in one of works, then his fruits will contain works of iniquity...works done in order to merit heaven.

Hence it is not the quantity of one's works Christ is concerned with...it's where do these works originated?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob said,

Quote:

---

The thing you must remember is that Christ loved us when we were His enemies....In other words He is saying, "Love like I love", but BTW...the greatest love you can produce is to die for a friend. I died when you hated me...when you were murdering Me."

---

If it can be done in one person, then it can be done in anyone who chooses to let God dwell in him and he in God. Like our dear brother Stephen, who was murdered by his enemies and loved them as he said lay not this sin to their charge.

Quote:

---

Quote:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

That is future...you and I don't belong to this group! This remnant will also "have everything in common" as did the early Church. [Read Acts 2:44,45/Acts 4:32-34]

---

That you will need to prove from scripture. As I read Rev 12:11 it is history, the verse before it is referring to the crucifixion. Verse 14 goes on to talk about the 1260 year period known as the dark ages. Notice how verse 11 talks about they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. But in Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." This is talking about the future because the issue is now different it's about the Sabbath (and I don't need to get into all that this entails), that's why it mentions the commandments in 14:12 and not in 12:11.

There's no need to tell me about good works not doing anything for us that I am convicted of. The reason I said I thought you believed that we do our best and Christ covers the rest is because of your belief in R7 being a description of Paul as a converted man. If that is the case then it follows that you would need to believe that Christ will make up for your lack. I believe that Christ covers those sins that we confess and those that we are just to blind to see. Then as we grow we see our lack and then out of love for Him stop doing those things that we are newly convicted of.

Norman

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

---

any Christian who is homeless, educationless, or propertyless is no witness to the power of the gospel. Such a person would [be] loathed by people as a drag to society....

---

Then Jesus was ineffective for He was homeless.

You are making up excuses, Gerry. This shows your love of self!

You are a typical Adventist....The Jews were great at this too....Limit the law to the things that meet your standard and then keep those things and then consider yourself righteous. And of course ingore those things that you consider rubbish.

Blindness!

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Norman said:

That you will need to prove from scripture.

---

The remnant is future! This garbage that the SDA church is God's remnant is wishful thinking. The SDA church is Laodicea! Only after the shaking (over the issue of justification by faith) does a remnant emerge!

Note the chronology:

Rev 14: 6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having the eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

This hasn't happened, yet....The gospel must first be fully restored. It is in process.

8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

Babylon - those religions who teach a perverted gospel haven't fallen yet because the gospel hasn't been fully restored. When it has and is preached with power, then when these organizations rejected it Babylon will fall.

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Ellen White links the third angel's message with "justification by faith". Those who reject this message will have to take the 2nd death because they refuse the only righteousness that qualifies them now and in the judgment.

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

After these events we will see a group of people who are reflecting Christ, not merely by keeping the letter of the law, but are living His life. This is the church grown up.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

---

Are you saying that in a world without selfishness no one will own anything? "They shall build houses and inhabit them...They shall not build and another inhabit

---

You have ears, but you cannot hear....You have eyes, but you cannot see!

I am saying that if you introduce one person who is selfish, it ruins everything....Hence, Lucifer and His crew came here and set up camp based on His love of self....

In heaven there will be no "self"! We will have everything in common....There's no ownership, like we have here....That smacks of selfishness...you know, "this is mine and that is yours." We will live for others..and they will be living for us.

That quote from Is. doesn't disprove what I stated. In heaven there will be no death, so where we live will not be passed on to another....Also there will be no "self" and hence no one will try and force what we share to be their own!

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

---

The remnant is future! This garbage that the SDA church is God's remnant is wishful thinking. The SDA church is Laodicea! Only after the shaking (over the issue of justification by faith) does a remnant emerge!

---

My issue was with using Rev 12:11 as future when it is history and I used Rev 14 to show and prove the difference. I know Rev 14 is future, but not Rev 12:11. That was my point. I have no problem with what you have said about the Remnant. Just as "not all Israel is Israel" so not all the remnant is the remnant. There will be many that will leave and many that will come in. They will be God's masterpiece of righteousness by faith, unshakable, unmovable, the perfect example of love in these earthen vessels (sinful flesh.)2Co 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" Which brings me back to R7 and the victory that we can have in these bodies (over the flesh) that the glory may go to God who only has the power to do this.

Norman