Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

Look closely at the way Paul write theses verses.

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"The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." [Rom 8:7]

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[:"blue"]Paul is dealing with TWO kinds of sinners in Romans. 1) Gentiles who were without the law, who "changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and fourfooted animals and creeping thins," whom "God...gave...up to uncleanness," Rom 1:23,24 NKJ. 2) The Jews who "rest on the law, and make [their] boast in God," Rom 2:17. They had the advantage of having the oracles of God committed to them, Rom 3:1,2. Yet, Paul's point was that both Gentile who did not have the law, and the Jew who had the law, were both guilty before God.

Were all the Jews who rested on the law & boasted in the law converted? Read Rom 2. [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob

You quoted only part of what I said and responded to thepart you quoted as though I was saying only what you quoted.

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Norman said:The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God.

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Norman wrote,

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The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God. Jesus in whom we all are; did not fall short of the glory of God and therefore neither do we, objectively. Subjectively, it is being done. What manner of person reveals the glory of God? We do, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

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When you read it in it's entirety it doesn't mean what your reponse makes it out to mean.

Also let's look at more of the statement that EGW wrote and you partially quoted.

Rob wrote,

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The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. [EGW]

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The next sentences read as follows,

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To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples.

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Rob as a friend I'm asking you to please use quotes in context because it makes for unfair discussions and makes you look like you don't know what you talking about. It also cause me to wonder if you're being honest when you do that. Please take that as a friendly encouragement.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob,

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Now look at the verses that go with it, Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The whole context is about sins in the past. No longer can it be said that all come short of the glory (Character) of God.

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What does it mean here? This last phrase has been misinterpreted by many. Paul is not saying here that when you accept Christ he forgives your past sins.

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I'll respond, hopefully tonight. I will be leaving to go to Florida for Christmas tomorrow so I'm not sure if I'll have time to reply.

Norman

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Were all the Jews who rested on the law & boasted in the law converted? Read Rom 2. Gerry

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Paul before conversion: "As to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless."

Paul after conversion: "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me." [Phil 3:12]

[Robert]

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Norman said:

When you read it in it's entirety it doesn't mean what your reponse makes it out to mean.

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Yes...I should have read on. My mistake.

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To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples.

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Yes, I am aware of what she stated after what I quoted. And no, I didn't quote that part because either she is massively confused or we are misunderstanding what she means by "to cease from sin."

Here's the problem. First she states, "Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves." That's falling short....But right after that she says, "To be redeemed means to cease from sin."

Well, if I have ceased from sin then there's no marked contrast between my righteousness and Christ's....So that completely negates her previous statement.

But...if I read what she means by that, well, it's not about perfection or sinlessness at all...."To cease from sin" according to her interpretation is have a heart [mind] that isn't stirred to rebellion against the law of God." That's the mindset...not performance!

What did Paul say in Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law...waging war against the law of my mind [i.e., the heart]

So the man of Romans 7 is converted!

Thank you,

Rob

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]Tell me, how can you forgive something that has not occurred yet? The Cross is an offering for past, present, and future sins, YES!!!, but forgiveness and justification do not occur as a personal future experience. Forgiveness and justification as an experiential reality in the sinner takes place only at the point of repentance & conversion. [/]

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We are living under the umbrella of the justification of Christ. This doesn’t mean that we can condone sin, we need to aknowledge our sins.

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[:"blue"] And after you have acknowledged that sin yet continue to do it anyway, do you still remain under this umbrella of justification? Absurd! That would make God a liar! Continueing to tell all His creation that Gerry is righteous, he is perfect. He has not stopped cheating, but he is cheating less. He has not stopped fornicating, but he is fornicating less!

Great theology!!![/]

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Then with all due respect, what do you have to offer in its place? Are you saying that if someone repents and is converted, from that moment on they never sin again, or else if they do it means they were never converted??? Are you saying that salvation is nothing more than a "reset" back to square one, where the same old news prevails: "be good or you're going to burn in the lake of fire"?

GREAT THEOLOGY! (Not).

Certainly not GOOD NEWS. What is the GOOD NEWS, then?

It sounds to me like you are advocating instantaneous perfection because you are saying if there is still struggle or any sin is committed, the person was never converted but is just a liar or something.

I don't buy it.

[Robert]

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Norman said:

I'll respond, hopefully tonight. I will be leaving to go to Florida for Christmas tomorrow so I'm not sure if I'll have time to reply.

Norman

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Your argument is with Jack Sequeira, not me....I quoted his material because I didn't have time to respond! And yes, I fully agree with him because it makes perfect sense....

Rob

Jack's comments on Romans

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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The point, however, is that Christ presents us "in Himself" as we keep our faith in Him....Hence in him we are "holy and without blemish"! That's what it means to be cleansed!

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[:"blue"]WRONG!!! Wrong! Wrong! How can God pronounce a filthy pig "holy and without blemish", "cleansed" while the same pig keeps wallowing in the same filth?[/]

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"NOW ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you." John 15:3

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it ABIDE in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in ME." -- John 15:4

Branches don't bear fruit all the time, but if they are cut off out of the vine they never will. So don't take your hatchet to tender shoots just because they are bent funny and aren't bearing fruit at that moment. You don't know what God has in mind for them, and anyway they will never get any better if you cut them off with condemnation and destroying their hope in Christ!!!

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when effort is put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for this deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandments. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works." 1SM 384

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Whatever! ....Ellen contradicts herself here!

"Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth....If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift."

Christ doesn't take your best, which let's say is 20% righteousness, and add his 80% to make up for your deficiency. That's a subtle form of legalism! After all you are earning 20% of your salvation. Ellen can be confusing...or we simply do not understand her sometimes.

But no...it is all of Christ....Your works are used as measuring stick, but not to prove your righteousness....They are used to prove the source they originate in. If a false gospel...well, the fruits will be filled with self-righteousness....If one is completely depending on Christ's righteousness, well, the fruits will be free from merit seeking and self-righteousness. Why? Because the true believer knows it is all of Christ.... Hence, "Not I, but Christ"!

[Robert]

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Your works are used as measuring stick, but not to prove your righteousness....They are used to prove the source they originate [from].

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“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works!And then will I profess unto them, [what a great job! Your law keeping is excellent!]

Is that what He said? NO!

Here: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

When humans try to earn salvation through works, the fruit they produce is tainted with a bent to self.....That's what iniquity means! Hence this group's fruit is tainted with self-righteousness.

Christ uses their works to prove the gospel they have accepted. In this case they have accepted the perverted gospel of "I + Christ" [a subtle form of legalism]...instead of not I, but Christ. They are attempting to get credit for Christ's doing and dying.

[Robert]

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Tell me, how can you forgive something that has not occurred yet? The Cross is an offering for past, present, and future sins, YES!!!, but forgiveness and justification do not occur as a personal future experience. Forgiveness and justification as an experiential reality in the sinner takes place only at the point of repentance & conversion.

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"Forgiveness" has no merit....Ellen White tells us that even our repentance is insufficient! What it shows is a heart of gratitude towards God....There's that "heart" thing again that God's looks at....

Technically speaking...your humanity died "in Christ" 2000 years ago. Sunday morning God raised Christ with a glorified, sinless humanity and took it to heaven. From that perspective the sin problem has been fully resolved "in Christ"!

Now 2000 year later here comes that rascal Gerry. When you believed you were accepting a past historic event. Your believing didn't make it so for Christ already has your new humanity in Himself.

Because you have accepted this, Christ represents you in Himself....But "in Him" you are spotless...you are much more than forgiven. That's what it means to stand under the umbrella of justification by faith.

The fact is every time you sin you do not come out of Christ. That's because as far has the law is concerned you are literally perfect in the Beloved!

Yes...you acknowledge those sin you are aware of...not because you're out of salvation, but because you want Christ to continue to represent you perfect "in Him"....The gospel completely changes your motivation from fear to peace with God....

Get some peace,

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Rob,

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Yes, I am aware of what she stated after what I quoted. And no, I didn't quote that part because either she is massively confused or we are misunderstanding what she means by "to cease from sin."

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By reading the rest of the paragraph you get what she means.

No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant. There are many who do not see themselves in the light of the law of God. They do not loathe selfishness; therefore they are selfish. Their souls are spotted and defiled. Yet with sin-stained lips they say, "I am holy. Jesus teaches me that the law of God is a yoke of bondage. Those who say that we must keep the law have fallen from grace."

I my words, stop serving sin and rebelling, look at Christ and see yourself in comparison to Him. You are sinful and you do not understand the law of God. Those who are under grace fulfill the law by serving another master, Christ and not sin.

I will be away for the next 6 days or so. Have a merry Christmas, you and your wife.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Merry Christmas Gerry

I will be away for a while.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Nico,

Again, I'm glad you are in this discussion.

Have a Merry Christmas

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Hey Rob,

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Yes, I am aware of what she stated after what I quoted. And no, I didn't quote that part because either she is massively confused or we are misunderstanding what she means by "to cease from sin."

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By reading the rest of the paragraph you get what she means.

"No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant. There are many who do not see themselves in the light of the law of God. They do not loathe selfishness; therefore they are selfish."

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I've already touched on this. Did you see my reply?

Basically EGW is not speaking of "performance" - she's talking of character (our mindset). When the Bible uses the word "heart" it doesn't mean that pump in the middle of your chest. No...it is referring to your mind where the seat of emotions, desires and thoughts originate.

So she's saying that only the unconverted mind is stirred to rebellion against the law of God, and therefore hasn't any union with Christ.

I, for one, "delight in God’s law" in my heart. When I say God's law I especially mean His agape love.

Now that doesn't mean I fully understand God's love (of which the law is a reflection). Why? Because I see this love in a mirror dimly, but one day face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully [see 1 Cor 13:12]. Further more, God's thoughts are not my thoughts, neither are my ways His ways [see Isaiah 55:8].

Those who reject the above idea usually fit nicely into what I would term a fundamentalist. For one they think they understand God's will. These are those who seek to impose their ideas of righteousness on to other believers.

For example, Norman, if you told me I must tithe or I won't make it to heaven I would tell you that you must keep all the law (both the "Book of the law" & The moral law) if you insist that I adhere to your ideas of righteousness.

Is this Biblical? Yes....Turn to Gal 5:1

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

What is this "yoke of bondage"? Well, what's the immediate context? Verse 3: "I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [as a means of salvation], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law."

If you come to me and say, "Look here Rob, you must pay tithe even though you don't attend church or your won't make it to heaven" then I will tell you that you must keep "the whole law" or you won't make it either.

Turn to Acts 15:10. Note what is said:

"Why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

What is the issue here? Looking at the immediate context I find this: "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses [i.e., "The book of the law"].” [Verse 5]

You see these believers claimed to understand God's will and they were more than happy to impose their wills on the Gentile believers. Look at verse 1: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Is circumcision a command from "The book of the Law"? Yes:

Lev. 12:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Say to the people of Israel, If a woman conceives, and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.”

So we have NT believers, as recorded in the book of Acts, demanding that the Gentiles follow the rites of circumcision and keep all the rules in “The book of the Law.” By the way, “The book of the Law” also includes the moral law!

What does Paul say of such an attitude? Back to Galatians 5, verse 3:

“I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [again, as a means of salvation], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law."

If you tell a Sunday keeper about the Sabbath and he rejects your theology, would you tell him that he is lost? If you did, do you know what he could say to you?

“Okay, if I have to keep the Sabbath to be saved, then you must keep all the laws and regulations as found in the ‘Book of the Law” or you won’t make it to heaven either.” And you know what? He would be absolutely correct!

Why can’t we place believers “under the law”? Because, for one, believers in general are not under the law! If you make one rule a condition for heaven, then you must make “the whole law” a condition for heaven.

Since none of us understands God’s will perfectly, then none of us have the right to impose our wills on others. Only God is omniscient, but yet He doesn’t impose Himself on us! So if God doesn’t do it neither should we.

Those who think they are fulfilling the law and not falling short have to also make the assumption that they know God’s will perfectly!

In a nutshell...there lies the problem….The fact that we do fully understand God's love means we are falling short of that agape love revealed in the life of Jesus Christ.

Therefore Paul is absolutely correct when he say:

• Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Torah and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Amen!

Merry Christmas, Norman.

[Nicodema]

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Norman said:

Why can’t we place believers “under the law”? Because, for one, believers in general are not under the law! If you make one rule a condition for heaven, then you must make “the whole law” a condition for heaven.

Only God is omniscient, but yet He doesn’t impose Himself on us! So if God doesn’t do it neither should we.

Therefore Paul is absolutely correct when he says:

• Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God,
  apart from law
  , has been made known, to which the Torah and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes
  through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe
  . There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned
  and fall short of the glory of God
  , 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

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Norman,

Now THAT sounds like some GOOD NEWS to me.

Nico

[Robert]

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The fact that we

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fully understand God's love means we are falling short of that agape love revealed in the life of Jesus Christ.

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Correction: "The fact that we do not fully understand God's love means we are falling short of that agape love revealed in the life of Jesus Christ."

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Were all the Jews who rested on the law & boasted in the law converted? Read Rom 2. Gerry

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Paul before conversion: "As to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless."

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[:"blue"]Even ethical, uncoverted people can keep the minimum requirements of the letter of the law, i.e. not bow down to idols, respect their parents, faithful to their spouse, not murder, not steal, not take what belongs to someone else. Paul, being a Pharisee, was before conversion, more concerned about outward appearances than inward righteousness. Hypocrisy was the sin that Jesus criticised the Pharisees the most for - whitewashed sepulchers but full of dead men's bones. But when Paul grasped the spiritual nature of the law, he did not feel blameless at all. In Rom 7 he acknowledged he was "wretched", "indwelt by sin", & a slave & under the dominion of sin. [/]

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Paul after conversion: "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made

perfect

, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me." [Phil 3:12]

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[:"blue"]From the preceding verse, what he had not yet obtained was the fullness of salvation, which is obtained only at the resurrection when Jesus comes, during which time he would also receive that perfect body. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Nicodema said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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The point, however, is that Christ presents us "in Himself" as we keep our faith in Him....Hence in him we are "holy and without blemish"! That's what it means to be cleansed!

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[:"blue"]WRONG!!! Wrong! Wrong! How can God pronounce a filthy pig "holy and without blemish", "cleansed" while the same pig keeps wallowing in the same filth?[/]

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"NOW ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you." John 15:3

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[:"blue"]At that moment that Jesus said this, I believe they were all clean. But because born again people remain free to make choices, Peter was still free to deny his Lord not a few hours afterward. The first denial could have been a startled knee-jerk response, but the second and third? I don't think so. Did Jesus abandon him then after Peter's denials of Him? No!!! That's the Good News. As I said before, God is the constant in the process of salvation. He is always there with His outstretched arms waiting for the sinner to come back. We are the yo-yos. We are the variables. He does not abandon us. We abandon Him!!! In the parable of the unfruitful tree in the garden, the Gardener redoubles His efforts, watering, fertilizing, cultivating it before He agrees to have it uprooted. [/]

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"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it ABIDE in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in ME." -- John 15:4

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[:"blue"]Had the disciples been watching, praying and abiding, as Jesus told them to do, they would not have abandoned Him, and Peter would not have shamefully disowned his Lord. When Jesus predicted Peter's denials, He also predicted , [:"red"] "When you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." Lk 22:32 NKJ.[/] After Peter's denials and the rooster crowed, Jesus looked at him, and when Peter met that loving gaze, it broke his heart and wept bitterly in repentance. Again, here is God's constant offer of salvation to fickle, yo-yo man. Did Peter ever deny his Lord ever again? I doubt it. He matured to the point of willing to be crucified upside down. Did he ever make mistakes again? Of course! Paul made a record of it. [/]

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Branches don't bear fruit all the time, but if they are cut off out of the vine they never will. So don't take your hatchet to tender shoots just because they are bent funny and aren't bearing fruit at that moment. You don't know what God has in mind for them, and anyway they will never get any better if you cut them off with condemnation and destroying their hope in Christ!!!

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[:"blue"]Here is where the metaphors break down. Shoots grafted into the vine in the natural world takes time to grow before they start bearing fruit. But I believe that in the spiritual world, growth and fruit-bearing start simultaneously. Some love, joy, peace, begin to sprout. When there is no growing & fruit-bearing, I believe it is because we are no longer abiding. As in the other parables of Jesus, if the believer fails to put on the whole armor of God, if he does not watch and pray, the thorns may choke the word and become unfruitful. The promise of 1 Jn 3 is that we cannot be practicing sin while abiding in Christ. We have to let go of Christ first before we can commit a deliberate/intentional sinful act. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when effort is put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for this deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandments. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works." 1SM 384

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Whatever! ....Ellen contradicts herself here!

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[:"blue"]If you think she contradicts herself, then don't ever ever quote her again. Stick to Scripture, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEE!!!

The quote above does not in any way contradict your quote below. The obedience accepted as man's best efforts above is NOT accepted as MERIT for salvation. NO amount of human obedience is ever accepted in order to merit salvation. The righteousness of Jesus is the ONLY righteousness that can merit salvation for the believer. But while the believer is no longer under law as the means to salvation, neither is he free to break them. He has been delivered from the slavery to sin, so now he is free to keep the law, and when he does it as a loving response to what God has done for him, that loving obedience, no matter how inadequate from a fallen human being, God accepts as fulfillment of the law. But let me emphasize again, this is NOT for merit at all.[/]

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"Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth....If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift."

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Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

The righteousness of Jesus is the ONLY righteousness that can merit salvation for the believer.

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Good for you! Now don't contradict it....Oh no, here you go:

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But while the believer is no longer under law as the

means

to salvation, neither is he free to break them.

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Let's see, hmmm? I am not under the law, but if I don't keep the law I am out of salvation...right? That's being "under law"! Bad circular reasoning!

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He has been delivered from the slavery to sin, so now he is free to keep the law....

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Really? I didn't know that I no longer retain a sinful nature! Wow....

We can only make progress as we yield to the Holy Spirit when temptation comes our way. That is a human response....That's the human element I was speaking of previously.

[Gerr]

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Nicodema said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]Tell me, how can you forgive something that has not occurred yet? The Cross is an offering for past, present, and future sins, YES!!!, but forgiveness and justification do not occur as a personal future experience. Forgiveness and justification as an experiential reality in the sinner takes place only at the point of repentance & conversion. [/]

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We are living under the umbrella of the justification of Christ. This doesn’t mean that we can condone sin, we need to aknowledge our sins.

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[:"blue"] And after you have acknowledged that sin yet continue to do it anyway, do you still remain under this umbrella of justification? Absurd! That would make God a liar! Continueing to tell all His creation that Gerry is righteous, he is perfect. He has not stopped cheating, but he is cheating less. He has not stopped fornicating, but he is fornicating less!

Great theology!!![/]

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Then with all due respect, what do you have to offer in its place? Are you saying that if someone repents and is converted, from that moment on they never sin again, or else if they do it means they were never converted??? Are you saying that salvation is nothing more than a "reset" back to square one, where the same old news prevails: "be good or you're going to burn in the lake of fire"?

GREAT THEOLOGY! (Not).

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[:"blue"]I am glad that at least you don't think it is great theology for God to pronounce as holy, righteous, perfect, and blameless, someone who continues to live in the same old life.

Are sinners who become converted yet deliberately/intentionally sin again, uncoverted in the first place?

Let me ask you, if the unconverted become converted, can not the converted become unconverted? What is repentance after all? Is it not a change of mind? What is conversion? Is it not a turn around in direction? Does not the Bible use such terms as "falling away," & "apostasy?"

Since believers remain free to change their mind even after repentance & conversion, are they not free to go back into sin? Paul says that whoever we submit our bodies to obey, we are slaves to that one whom we choose to obey. And Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. We have to choose one or the other.

And Paul says, [:"red"] "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard...." Col 1:21-23 NKJ. [/] [/]

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Certainly not GOOD NEWS. What is the GOOD NEWS, then?

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[:"blue"]THAT is the essence of the Good News, Col 1:21-23. As long as we continue in the faith, grounded, steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel, we are holy, blameless, and bove reproach in His sight. We cannot be steadfast with one master while obeying another. [/]

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It sounds to me like you are advocating instantaneous perfection because you are saying if there is still struggle or any sin is committed, the person was never converted but is just a liar or something.

I don't buy it.

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[:"blue"]Neither do I want to buy what you think I am saying.

The only instantaneous perfection possible for us is the "righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe," Rom 3:22 NKJ. The moment a sinner puts his/her trust in Jesus Christ, at that instant, the righteousness from God is his/hers, and is presented by God throughout the whole universe as, "holy...blameless, and above reproach in His sight." But God does not leave the sinner where he/she is. The long arduous process of sanctification/holification, the transformation of the sinner who was pronounced as perfect in theory, God now takes up the task of transforming him/her as perfect in reality. This IS God's work, [:"red"]"For we ARE His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:20 NKJ. [/]

IF I am abiding in Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the results are guaranteed because it is all God's work. That is living by faith. My concern is whether I am abiding in Christ & indwelt by the Holy Spirit, NOT focussing on producing works. When I grow tomatoes, I don't focus on producing fruits, my focus is on watering, fertilizing, weeding, & making sure the plants get plenty of sunshine. When I do that, I find that harvesting tomatoes is just as certain as the sun rising in the east.

As for the struggling with sin, there will always be a struggle as long as we are in this flesh. But Paul says, we are to reckong ourselves dead to sin. The longer we keep saying "NO" to sin, the lesser & lesser the pull of the flesh becomes. In drug addicts, the desire to go back to the addiction is strongest during the first few days. For most of my smoking patients who quit, they tell me that the desire never completely go away, but the longer they can ignore that desire, the less pull it has on them. And most of them do get to the point where they can say that they will no longer intentionally/deliberately light up another cigarette.

To me it IS great news that a filthy person does not remain in filth while claiming to be saved.[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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The moment a sinner puts his/her trust in Jesus Christ, at that instant, the righteousness from God is his/hers, and is presented by God throughout the whole universe as, "holy...blameless, and above reproach in His sight." But God does not leave the sinner where he/she is. The long arduous process of sanctification/holification, the transformation of the sinner who was pronounced as perfect

in theory

, God now takes up the task of transforming him/her as perfect in reality.

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Now I see why you fight me....Hmmm???? You are a perfectionist.

Well, too bad that you don't understand the gospel as it is "in Christ"! "In Him" we are literally righteous....That's not a theory, rather a living reality in the heavenly places. We receive this perfection at the 2nd coming.

It must be bad for you Gerry, always trying to reach that perfect state....No wonder you fight me! No peace, no assurance! Boy, that will destroy your faith....

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

The righteousness of Jesus is the ONLY righteousness that can merit salvation for the believer.

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Good for you! Now don't contradict it....Oh no, here you go:

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But while the believer is no longer under law as the

means

to salvation, neither is he free to break them.

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Let's see, hmmm? I am not under the law, but if I don't keep the law I am out of salvation...right? That's being "under law"! Bad circular reasoning!

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[:"blue"]Paul contradicts your wrong conclusion when he says, [:"red"]"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14 NKJ [/]

And in the very next breath he says, [:"red"]What then? Shall se sin [break the law] because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Rom 6:15 NKJ.

[/] If by "not under law but under grace" you understand Paul to mean that the believer is not longer obligated to keep the law, then he is contradicting himself by what he is saying in 6:15 & 6:1. But if by "not under law but under grace" under law as a means to salvation, then everything he says makes sense.

It would not make sense for Paul to tell the Ephesians, [:"red"] "Let him who stole steal no longer,"[/] if the law against stealing is no longer applicable to the believing Ephesians.

It would not make sense for him to tell them, [:"red"]"But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be name among you as is fitting for saints..." Eph 5:3 [/] if the law is no longer to be obeyed by the believer.

It would not make sense for John to say, [:"red"] "Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus," Rev 14:12 [/] if the commandments are no longer binding. [/]

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He has been delivered from the slavery to sin, so now he is free to keep the law....

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Really? I didn't know that I no longer retain a sinful nature! Wow....

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[:"blue"]We remain in this body, yes, but Paul says, [:"red"]"Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:11 NKJ. [/] As long as we are in this body, yes, sin remains, but it does not reign! That is the promise to the one who abides in Christ & indwelt by the Holy Spirit. [/]

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We can only make progress as we yield to the Holy Spirit when temptation comes our way. That is a human response....That's the human element I was speaking previously.

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[:"blue"]And the promise is that we will always be indwelt by the Holy Spirit as long as we are abiding in Christ. THAT is the choice, the work if you please, that we have to make. The believer cannot be obeying the dictates of sin at the same time he/she is trying to carry out the command of Jesus not to sin. THAT is impossible![/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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The moment a sinner puts his/her trust in Jesus Christ, at that instant, the righteousness from God is his/hers, and is presented by God throughout the whole universe as, "holy...blameless, and above reproach in His sight." But God does not leave the sinner where he/she is. The long arduous process of sanctification/holification, the transformation of the sinner who was pronounced as perfect

in theory

, God now takes up the task of transforming him/her as perfect in reality.

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Now I see why you fight me....Hmmm???? You are a perfectionist.

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[:"blue"] Not me!!! God is!!! Was it not He who said, [:"red"]"Be holy for I am holy?" [/]

Was it not He who said, [:"red"]"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect?" [/]

Was it not He who said, [:"red"] "Go and sin no more?" [/] [/]

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Well, too bad that you don't understand the gospel as it is "in Christ"! "In Him" we are literally righteous....That's not a theory, rather a living reality in the heavenly places. We receive this perfection at the 2nd coming.

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[:"blue"]You can proclaim what a total moron I am not understanding YOUR brand of the gospel, and that's all right. There are few sins that God hates than hypocrisy. One of the commandments is, "You shall not take the name of the Lord they God in vain." For one to say they are followers of Christ and live in the same filthy living is an oxymoron! Oh yes, you believe in some change, meaning the believer will be stealing less fornicating less, coveting less. But that is not the kind of transformation/born again experience the Bible talks about. It is being a NEW creature, not just a slight renovation of the old. I've said it before, I'll say it again. It is not Good News for God to pronounce a filthy person clean and that person is still living in filth!!! [/]

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It must be bad for you Gerry, always trying to reach that perfect state....No wonder you fight me! No peace, no assurance! Boy, that will destroy your faith....

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[:"blue"]I have more peace and assurance than you will ever understand, my friend.

I fight you because you, "turn the grace of our God into lewdness," Jude 4 by insisting that grace now excuses the sinner in his continueing practice of sinning. You make the gospel totally powerless instead of the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. You turn the Almight/Omnipotent God into someone totally powerless to transform. [/]

Gerry