Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14 NKJ

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What does that mean, "sin shall not have dominion over you"? Does it mean you are free from sin? No! See 1 John 1:8. It means that sin can't put you away...you no longer have to die the 2nd death.

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And in the very next breath he says, What then? Shall se sin [break the law] because we are not under law but under grace?

Certainly not!

Rom 6:15 NKJ.

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You added, "break the law"! Sin is much more than just the mere letter of the law. There's where you go wrong....The essence of sin is the love of self; pride and self-seeking. Are you free of these sins?

Paul isn't contradicting his previous statement: "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin"! He didn't say YOU are dead to sin, no...he says, "reckon or consider yourself dead to sin." That's the mindset....Just as David said, "I delight in your law" and Paul, "For in my inner being I delight in God’s law"

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It would not make sense for Paul to tell the Ephesians, [:"red"] "Let him who stole steal no longer,"[/] if the law against stealing is no longer applicable to the believing Ephesians.

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Yes...he gives that standard, but because of the weakness of your flesh Gerry, Paul says, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." Rom 12:18 [The context is about taking revenge]. However, the perfect example is Christ: "Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats." [1 Peter 2:21-23]

So see, we do "fall short"! Is there in condemnation for the one who reckons himself dead to sin, but who in reality falls short? No: "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." [Rom 8:1 NASB]

[Gerr]

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“I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [again, as a means of salvation],

that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law."

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[:"blue"]What you seem to fail to understand no matter how many times it has been repeated in the past is the difference between the ceremonial requirements in the Torah and the 2 & the 10c which are principles, the Two being applicable anywhere in God's universe for all the time, and the 10c which are specific adaptations of the Two to the particular situation here on earth. [/]

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If you tell a Sunday keeper about the Sabbath and he rejects your theology, would you tell him that he is lost? If you did, do you know what he could say to you?

“Okay, if I have to keep the Sabbath to be saved, then you must keep all the laws and regulations as found in the ‘Book of the Law” or you won’t make it to heaven either.” And you know what? He would be absolutely correct!

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[:"blue"]Again, no matter how many times it has been said and in many different ways that believers do not keep the law in order to be saved but rather they keep the law because they are saved, you continue to believe that believers who obey do so in order to gain merit to be saved. That is completely false!

The heresy that because we are saved by grace through faith alone and are not under the law as the way to salvation and therefore are no longer under obligation to keep the 10c goes back to apostolic times. That is why Paul, after having said, [:"red"]"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace," [/] promptly raised the question, [:"red"] "What then? Shall we sin [transgress the law, 1 Jn 3:4] because we are not under law but under grace?" [/]His emphatic answer is, [:"red"]"Certainly not!" Rom 6:14,15 NKJ. [/]

James, in combating the same heresy also said that even the devils believe & tremble. But what good is that belief & trembling? Not one whit, because he says, "faith without works is dead!" [/]

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Why can’t we place believers “under the law”? Because, for one, believers in general are not under the law! If you make one rule a condition for heaven, then you must make “the whole law” a condition for heaven.

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[:"blue"]I would venture to say that if you ask the same Sunday-keeper, with the possible exception of Baptists who believe the heresy of "once-saved-always-saved" no matter what, if you ask them, would you be lost if you went out to murder, commit adultery, bow down to idols, etc, most of them would probably say that yes, they would be lost. [/]

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Since none of us understands God’s will perfectly, then none of us have the right to impose our wills on others. Only God is omniscient, but yet He doesn’t impose Himself on us! So if God doesn’t do it neither should we.

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[:"blue"]God has not left us in the dark about His will. That is why He gave us the Scriptures. Jesus commissioned believers to teach everything He taught. It is not our will we are imposing on others. We only teach what the Bible teach. We don't go around twisting arms to accept our views. That is between them and God alone. [/]

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Those who think they are fulfilling the law and not falling short have to also make the assumption that they know God’s will perfectly!

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[:"blue"] Is it so foggy and mysterious to you that all God wants you to do is to love Him so much so that you will no longer have other gods, bow down to idols, not take His name hypocritically, keep His Sabbath, and to love your neighbor so as not to steal from him, kill him, bear false witness against him, and covet what belongs to him? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14 NKJ

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What does that mean, "sin shall not have dominion over you"? Does it mean you are free from sin? No! See 1 John 1:8. It means that sin can't put you away...you no longer have to die the 2nd death.

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[:"blue"] How can you say that sin can't put you away if you as a believer continues to obey what it tells you to do? How can you claim you have been set free while remaining bound by the cords of sin? Ridiculous!!!

1 Jn 1:8 does not in anyway imply that sin should be an on-going experience in the believer. I have cited Scriptures over & over again such as, [:"red"]"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light." Eph 5:8 NKJ. [/] The Good News is that we no longer have to keep on sinning, but that IF we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, 1 Jn 2:1.

Furthermore, if 1 Jn 1:8 is telling me that intentional/deliberate sinning is a continueing reality in the life of the believer, then he is contradicting what he is saying in 1 Jn 3, that those who abide in Him will NOT continue a life of sin.

You keep insisting that a practiced sin is sin that we do not acknowledge. I have asked you many times but have refused to answer, so I'll ask you again. If I acknowledge that it is wrong to fornicate, cheat, steal, murder, covet, if I acknowledge that all these things are wrong and sinful but do them regardless, am I practicing sin or not? [/]

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And in the very next breath he says, What then? Shall se sin [break the law] because we are not under law but under grace?

Certainly not!

Rom 6:15 NKJ.

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You added, "break the law"! Sin is much more than just the mere letter of the law. There's where you go wrong....The essence of sin is the love of self; pride and self-seeking. Are you free of these sins?

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[:"blue"] Take issue with John, that is how he defines sin. [/]

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Paul isn't contradicting his previous statement: "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin"! He didn't say YOU are dead to sin, no...he says, "reckon or consider yourself dead to sin."

That's the mindset

....Just as David said, "I delight in your law" and Paul, "For in my inner being I delight in God’s law"

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[:"blue"] If I understand correctly what you are saying, then I can have the mindset that sin is dead, sin is dead, but continue to follow its dictates? What kind of delusion is this?

Grace teaches us to say, "NO" to sin. Titus 2:12 NIV. Grace is received so that sinners can live and obey by faith, Rom 1:5. [/]

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It would not make sense for Paul to tell the Ephesians, [:"red"] "Let him who stole steal no longer,"[/] if the law against stealing is no longer applicable to the believing Ephesians.

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Yes...he gives that standard, but because of the weakness of your flesh Gerry,

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[:"blue"] This is an oxymoron. On the one hand you say the believer is no longer under law, no longer has obligations to keep the law. Yet here you are claiming the law as a standard for human behavior. Robert, make up your mind! How could the 10c be standard for righteous living but holds no force in the believer? [/]

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So see, we do "fall short"! Is there in condemnation for the one who reckons himself dead to sin, but who in reality falls short? No: "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." [Rom 8:1 NASB]

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[:"blue"]I've said it before, I'll say it again. As long as we are in this fallen flesh, we will continue to fall short. But are we falling short intentionally/deliberately? If, as I understand your theology to teach that believers can willfully/intentionally/deliberately continue to sin yet remain in a saved relationship with God, are you not in fact turning the grace of God into lewdness? Jude 4. That is what antinomianism is & does. You remain saved even while wallowing in sin! Are you not in fact teaching the Baptist heresy of "once-saved-always-saved"? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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The moment a sinner puts his/her trust in Jesus Christ, at that instant, the righteousness from God is his/hers, and is presented by God throughout the whole universe as, "holy...blameless, and above reproach in His sight." But God does not leave the sinner where he/she is. The long arduous process of sanctification/holification, the transformation of the sinner who was pronounced as perfect

in theory

, God now takes up the task of transforming him/her as perfect in reality.

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Now I see why you fight me....Hmmm???? You are a perfectionist.

Well, too bad that you don't understand the gospel as it is "in Christ"! "In Him" we are literally righteous....That's not a theory, rather a living reality in the heavenly places. We receive this perfection at the 2nd coming.

It must be bad for you Gerry, always trying to reach that perfect state....No wonder you fight me! No peace, no assurance! Boy, that will destroy your faith....

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[:"blue"]BTW, I wonder how you can be so smug about your own peace & assurance since you are the one who keeps harping that one can't be a true disciple of Jesus, without giving up all possessions & become homeless, with not even a pillow to lay one's head on. Last time I checked, you haven't done that yet. Tell me, how can you have peace & assurance while ignoring your litmus test of dscipleship?

But then you also teach that one can still continue to live in sin and remain a disciple. But wait, you can't be a disciple unless you become poor and homeless. No no no. You can covet, keep all your possessions yet remain a dsciple!!! The believer is not under law & has no obligation to keep it. Wait, it is a standard for righteous living!

Friend, aren't you a bit confused? [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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BTW, I wonder how you can be so smug about your own peace & assurance since you are the one who keeps harping that one can't be a true disciple of Jesus, without giving up all possessions & become homeless, with not even a pillow to lay one's head on. Last time I checked, you haven't done that yet. Tell me, how can you have peace & assurance while ignoring your litmus test of dscipleship?

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I gave you those quotes so that you won't have peace and assurance in your prideful works program....I want to make it hard for you ...extremely hard for you to work your charming self into heaven.

I mean after all you keep telling me, "Robert...we have to obey"....You even quoted "Be perfect, just as your heavenly father is perfect." Well Gerry, OBEY! OBEY! OBEY!

Do it....I am sick of your ranting about obedience when you selectively choose what to obey and what not to!!!! Remember, if you break one of His commands, you've broken them all!

Now here are two commands [maybe taken out of context, or maybe not] that demand YOUR obedience:

• 1] "Therefore you are to be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

How perfect? "Your best"???? NO! "As God is perfect"!!! Do it and quit jawing....

• 2] "So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

DO it!!! Do it now! According to you, Faith without works is dead! Obey!!!

Why don't you obey those commands listed above?

Waiting,

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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“I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [again, as a means of salvation],

that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law."

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[:"blue"]What you seem to fail to understand no matter how many times it has been repeated in the past is the difference between the ceremonial requirements in the Torah and the 2 & the 10c which are principles, the Two being applicable anywhere in God's universe for all the time, and the 10c which are specific adaptations of the Two to the particular situation here on earth. [/]

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Do you make this stuff up as you go? This stuff is old...EGW/Jones and Waggoner took care of this error many years ago. You apparently didn't read it! Let' start from scratch:

First read Gal 3:23-25

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. [:"Red"]25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."[:"black"]

Question: What "law" is Paul speaking of here?

BTW, the context of Gal 5:3 is the same "law" in Gal 3:24

Let me remind you what it said:

"Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised [compare to Acts 15:1,5] that he is obligated to obey the whole law."

Waiting for your honest reply,

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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BTW, I wonder how you can be so smug about your own peace & assurance since you are the one who keeps harping that one can't be a true disciple of Jesus, without giving up all possessions & become homeless, with not even a pillow to lay one's head on. Last time I checked, you haven't done that yet. Tell me, how can you have peace & assurance while ignoring your litmus test of dscipleship?

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I gave you those quotes so that you won't have peace and assurance in your prideful works program....I want to make it hard for you ...extremely hard for you to work your charming self into heaven.

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[:"blue"]And those quotes don't apply to you? If they apply to me, why not to you? Oh, since you are not working your way into heaven, therefore, they don't apply to you? Since you are not working your way into heaven, you can therefore fornicate, murder, cheat, steal, covet, or do whatever else your flesh tells you to do, and as long as you acknowledge them as sinful, you can keep doing them anyway? [/]

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I mean after all you keep telling me, "Robert...we have to obey"....You even quoted "Be perfect, just as your heavenly father is perfect." Well Gerry, OBEY! OBEY! OBEY!

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[:"blue"]You've got it all wrong, Robert!!!!!! What I have been telling you and everyone else is that, IF we are abiding in Christ, and IF we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we will no longer continue to deliberately/intentionally sin, 1 Jn 3:6,8-10. When we maintain that kind of a relationship, we will automatically obey. Like I said about growing tomatoes, I don't focus on growing fruit, if I take care of the watering, fertilizing & weeding, i.e. the watching, praying, sharing, & abiding, the fruit will automatically show up.

I don't tell people obey, obey, obey!!! I say abide, abide, abide, in Christ. Pray for His Holy Spirit to dwell in you, "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure," Phil 2:13 NKJ. When you grasp this truth, you will no longer keep harping about me trying to obey my way into heaven, because the works that I do are NOT my works. The works as His! We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, Eph 2:10. The glory is all to God. Not one iota belongs to me!!! [/]

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Do it....I am sick of your ranting about obedience

when you selectively choose what to obey and what not to!!!!

Remember, if you break one of His commands, you've broken them all!

Now here are two commands [maybe taken out of context, or maybe not] that demand YOUR obedience:

• 1] "Therefore you are to be perfect,
  just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

How perfect? "Your best"???? NO! "As God is perfect"!!! Do it and quit jawing....

• 2] "So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

DO it!!! Do it now! According to you, Faith without works is dead! Obey!!!

Why don't you obey those commands listed above?

Waiting,

Rob

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[:"blue"]You can add a thousand more commands, but when you love God, He says, My son, that is all I ask, for you to love me. And when you do that, you have met the requirements of the law. Not for merit to enter heaven because only the righteousness of Jesus can do that.

And when you seek FIRST His kingdom and His righteousness, voila! God has no intention to make you the center of pity or disgust for being poor & homeless, He gives them to you instead, makes you a blessing instead of a leech to mankind.

Robert, God wants to transform all of us sinners, not just to stealing less, fornicating less, coveting less, lying less, but provides His power so that we will stop doing these things. This transformation is the result of being saved, NOT the cause or basis for it. And that is all to the glory of God! [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Now are we leaving R7?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Gal 3:19-25.

"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given lifre, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. NKJ.

What is this Law that Paul is talking about in Galatians? I believe he is talking about Law [nomos] in general, and the Torah in particular, when he said, [:"red"] "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law [nomos] but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law [nomos] no flesh shall be justified." Gal 2:16 NKJ. [/]

So, no amount of law-keeping, whether we are speaking of the 10c, the ceremonial law of circumcision, and all the sacrificial laws, will justify anyone in the sight of God.

The natural question arises then, if obedience to law brings no justification/salvation, why did God give the Law? The "Reformation Bible" mentions three purposes of the Law.

1) Is to be a mirror reflecting to us both the perfect righteousness of God & our own sinfulness & shortcomings. That is what Paul does:

a) [:"red"]"What purpose then does the serve? It was added because of transgressions." 3:19 [/]

[:"red"]"Therefore by the deeds of the law [nomos] no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20 NKJ. "I would not have known sin except through the law....for apart from the law sin was dead." Rom 7:7,8 NKJ.

c) A tutor - paidagogos a household guardian responsible for the care and discipline of the children. Gal 3:24[/]

2) Civil use to restrain evil. Though the law cannot change the heart, yet to some extent it inhibits lawlessness by its threats of judgments, especially when backed by a civil code that administers punishment for proven offenses (Dt 13:6-11; 19:16-21; Rom 13:3,4). Thus it secures civil order, and serves to protect the righteous from the unjust.

3) To guide the regenerate into the good works that God has planned for them (Eph 2:10). The law tells God's children what will please their heavenly Father. It could be called their family code. Christ was speaking of this third use of the law when He said that those who become His disciples must be taught to do all that He had commanded (Mt 28:20), and that obedience to His commands will prove the reality of one's love for Him (Jn 14:15). The Christian is free from the law as a system of salvation (Rom 6:14; 7:4,6; 1 Cor 9:20; Gal 2:15-19; 3:25), but is "under law toward Christ" as a rule of life (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2)

Gerry

[Gerr]

Before we leave the man of R7, let me summarize.

The man of R7 is:

1) "carnal, sold under sin," 7:14

2) Can not do what he wants to do because he is indwelt by sin, & is dominated by sin, 7:15-17.

3) Even inwardly delights in the law, has the will but not the power to do good, 7:18-22

4) Wretched & in need of deliverance, 7:24

Contrast that with the known characteristics of converted people.

1) Died to sin, therefore can no longer continue in it, Rom 6:2. Old man crucified, 6:6

2) Those baptized into Christ now walk in newness of life, 6:4

3) No longer slaves of sin, 6:6; no longer under the dominion of sin, 6:14; set free from sin, y:18

4) Slave of God & righteousness, 6:22

5) Not of the flesh but in & indwelt by the Spirit 8:9,11

6) Is in the process of putting to death the deeds of the body, conforming to the image of His Son, 8:12,29.

To me the contrast is so great that the only conclusion I could come to is that in no way shape or form is the man of R7 the same converted man in Rom 6 & 8.

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

And those quotes don't apply to you?

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Your whole reply was

You didn't answer my question: "Why don't you obey those commands listed?"

"If you love me obey my commands"!

• Command # 1] “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

  Command # 2] “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

And those quotes don't apply to you?

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Your whole reply was

You didn't answer my question: "Why don't you obey those commands listed?"

"If you love me obey my commands"!

• Command # 1] “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

  Command # 2] “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

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[:"blue"]Since these are the litmus test of discipleship you have brought up, how come you want them to applied to me and not to you? Laying a burden on others but lifts no finger to do it, huh? How come?

Is it not because you believe you can continue to live in disobedience while claiming to be saved?

Perfection? Yes, that is my goal. But not in the way you are interpreting perfection to be. You are trying to apply God's ultimate perfection as something He is commanding to be achieved. That is ridiculous!!! Not even the sinless angels of heaven can do that. What Paul counsels us to do is to "be imitators of God, Eph 5:1, i.e. mimic our heavenly Father. Perfection as applied to fallen humans has to do with maturity.

I don't preach this ridiculous bad news of making every disciple poor & homeless. YOU invented that. Jesus came to preach Good News, not baaaaad news. What Jesus promised was that if we seek His kingdom and His righteousness first, God will supply the material possessions that the pagans/unbelievers worry so much about. But, He asks us to have the mindset that anything that would come between God & His relationship with the believer is to be given up.

If this is not what Jesus meant, why did you just pick on possessions? Why don't you pick gouging one's eye, cutting one's arm off, and hating your mom & dad, brother, sister, & even your wife also as proof of being His disciple? Why?

The idea behind all these teachings is to put God FIRST. Once we do that, God wants to make us prosperous and be a blessing to others. You can't bless others being homeless. You'd be just another burden to society who are tired of leeches.

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Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Nico it was actually Robert who wrote that.

Norman

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

What is this Law that Paul is talking about in Galatians? I believe he is talking about Law [nomos] in general, and the Torah in particular

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Paul is speaking of the Pentateuch, the first five books of the OT. They include the moral law!

So when Paul says, "I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [a law from the Pentateuch], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law” – he means that if you make one rule a condition of salvation, you must yourself keep the whole law!

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

And those quotes don't apply to you?

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Your whole reply was

You didn't answer my question: "Why don't you obey those commands listed?"

"If you love me obey my commands"!

• Command # 1] “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

  Command # 2] “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

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Perfection? Yes, that is my goal....

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Again, you skipped the question!

Christ doesn't say, "Let perfection be your goal"! No, He says, "be perfect, [perfect as whom?] as your heavenly Father is perfect"!

What did Jesus say to the rich young ruler? "There is none good but one, that is, God." [Matt 19:17]

How many are good? None but God! Notice that Matthew is speaking of God's righteousness and nothing else. In other words you are missing the mark...you are falling short!

You have said that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted and lost because he is missing the mark. Well guess what? So are you!

What does the Bible say about judging one's outward performance?

"You who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself...." [Rom 2:1]

So, if the man of Romans 7 is lost because he is failing to live the spirit of the law, then Gerry you must apply this to your life since you too are missing the mark!

See what a conundrum your legalistic theology traps you in? It has you lost!

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

What Jesus promised was that if we seek His kingdom and His righteousness first,

God will supply the material possessions

that the pagans/unbelievers worry so much about. But, He asks us to have the mindset that anything that would come between God & His relationship with the believer is to be given up.

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Really Gerry? Is that what it truly states or are you taking liberties with the context? Hmmm...The context of Luke chapter 14 doesn't say that! You are going to chapter 12. Please be honest in your quotes....

Okay...let's go to chapter 12:22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.

Gerry, I worried plenty….I went to college because I was worried about food on the table and a roof over my head. I wanted to make sure I was taken care of….That’s a lot worry and fuss in making sure I am alright…huh?

23 Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. [What does He mean?]

24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27 “Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he [give you great possessions? No]…How much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

And do not seek what you shall eat, and what you shall drink, and do not keep worrying. 30 “For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things.

What things according to the context? What you shall eat and drink! Nothing of possessions….

31 “But seek for His kingdom, and these things [food & water] shall be added to you.

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor.

Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

There’s the context! Now here’s what you said: “seek His kingdom and His righteousness first, God will supply the material possessions”….

Well, the context does say that….Gerry’s spin does! Please be honest!

Now…you have yet to answer the question: Why aren’t you doing what Christ seems to require?

Waiting!

Rob

[Robert]

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Christ doesn't say, "Let perfection be your goal"! No, He says, "be perfect, [perfect as whom?] as your heavenly Father is perfect"!

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I've learned one thing from my days of legalism: God will use the law until the self-righteous are so tired of trying to measure up that they will give up and rest in His righteousness.

And thank God that He used EGW to break the self-righteous also! Yes, that's right, Ellen. If you don't believe then read this:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-01

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says,

• [:"red"]“This do, and thou shalt live.”[:"black"] But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

When you are humbled, when you are broken, then God uses Ellen to give you assurance and peace. Yes, you make progress in your Christian walk...but now you are no longer worried about getting to heaven.

Here's a quote for those who understand grace:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 10-17-07

-AT- The Two Covenants

-PR- 08

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live:

• [:"Red"]"If a man do, he shall even live in them"[:"black"] (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26.

Note she equates "Obey and live"---"This do, and thou shalt live"...with the old covenant....

Again, why did God give the law when He knew that the legalists couldn't fully keep it? Because they didn't know!

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

What is this Law that Paul is talking about in Galatians? I believe he is talking about Law [nomos] in general, and the Torah in particular

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Paul is speaking of the Pentateuch, the first five books of the OT. They include the moral law!

So when Paul says, "I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [a law from the Pentateuch], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law” – he means that if you make one rule a condition of salvation, you must yourself keep the whole law!

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[:"blue"]Like Paul said, when love & obey, that obedience may not fill your bill, Robert, but it meets ALL God's law requirements, Rom 13:10. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Perfection? Yes, that is my goal....

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Again, you skipped the question!

Christ doesn't say, "Let perfection be your goal"! No, He says, "be perfect, [perfect as whom?] as your heavenly Father is perfect"!

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[:"blue"]You are demanding that I be another God, for that is what it would take to be exactly as perfect as God. Somehow you can't seem to grasp that fact, that creatures can never be exactly like their Creator. And because that is not possible, you somehow think they are falling short and therefore sinning!!! What an asenine notion!!! [/]

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What did Jesus say to the rich young ruler? "There is none good but one, that is, God." [Matt 19:17]

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[:"blue"]And when despicable sinner repents, is converted, born again, and indwelt by the infinitely good Christ & the Holy Spirit, still remains no good? You have a weird sense of humor. [/]

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How many are good? None but God! Notice that Matthew is speaking of God's righteousness and nothing else.

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[:"blue"]Sooooo, the sinless angels are no good too, per your interpretation of the verse. And what did Jesus mean then when He said: [:"red"]"He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good" Mt 5:45 NKJ. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Mt 5:16 NKJ. [/]Tell me, how can someone no good do something good? [/]

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In other words you are missing the mark...you are falling short!

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[:"blue"]And intentionally/deliberately sinning? So then are the unfallen angels! [/]

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You have said that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted and lost because he is missing the mark. Well guess what? So are you!

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[:"blue"] Don't put words in my mouth, please!!! The man of R7 is a lost man because he is not converted IMHO, because he is indwelt & under the dominion/slavery of sin. [/]

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What does the Bible say about judging one's outward performance?

"You who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other,

you are condemning

yourself...." [Rom 2:1]

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[:"blue"]We have been commanded also to judge with righteous judgment. [/]

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So, if the man of Romans 7 is lost because he is failing to live the spirit of the law, then Gerry you must apply this to your life since you too are missing the mark!

See what a conundrum your legalistic theology traps you in? It has you lost!

Rob

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[:"blue"]It's interesting how a confused person thinks it's the other way around! [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

Okay...if that's the way you are going to take it then one fulfills the law [as far as the “letter” is concerned] when one keeps the last six commandments. Note nothing is said of the first four!

Hence, if I keep the last six, I have kept the law and I don't have to keep the first four.

You have another conundrum!

[Robert]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You are demanding that I

be

another God, for that is what it would take to be exactly as perfect as God.

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Again... You have a bad habit!

BTW, I am not demanding it, Christ is!

You better do as He says, huh? Or you better figure out the context [like I have done].

Waiting, again.

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

Okay...if that's the way you are going to take it then one fulfills the law [as far as the “letter” is concerned] when one keeps the last six commandments. Note nothing is said of the first four!

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[:"blue"]Look, your gospel of poverty & homelessness is humorous enough, please don't add to it by pretending you don't understand that the same principle does not apply to the first four, i.e. when you love & obey God from the heart, you have fulfilled the spirit of law, whether it's the first four or the last six. [/]

Quote:

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Hence, if I keep the last six, I have kept the law and I don't have to keep the first four.

You have another conundrum!

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[:"blue"]See my foregoing comment.

Robert, if I had stumbled onto your teachings 40 yrs ago & followed them, I would have wound up being the most miserable and totally useless person on this planet. The gospel of uselessness & misery? Is that what you want all believers to follow & become? God emptied the storehouse of heaven when He gave us His Son, now He wants you to be homeless, pillowless, witless, possessionless, and whatever else could be made less? Quit kicking the goads, man!

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You are demanding that I

be

another God, for that is what it would take to be exactly as perfect as God.

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Again... You have a bad habit!

BTW, I am not demanding it, Christ is!

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[:"blue"]Christ asking us to be another God? What's in the water you are drinking, Robert? [/]

You better do as He says, huh? Or you better figure out the context [like I have done].

Waiting, again.

Rob

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[:"blue"]Robert, let's not profane the sacred with this kind of arguement. [/]

Gerry

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Norman said:

Hi Nico it was actually Robert who wrote that.

Norman

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Oh, OK! Sorry for the misquote!

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Quote:

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Christ doesn't say, "Let perfection be your goal"! No, He says, "be perfect, [perfect as whom?] as your heavenly Father is perfect"!

---

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[:"blue"]Robert, if the believer is obeying with all his/her heart, how much more perfect can he/she get? [/]

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I've learned one thing from my days of legalism: God will use the law until the self-righteous are so tired of trying to measure up that they will give up and rest in His righteousness.

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[:"blue"]Sorry friend. What you are teaching is not grace. What you are teaching is lawlessness, like in homelessness. Antinomianism pure & simple. [/]

Quote:

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And thank God that He used EGW to break the self-righteous also! Yes, that's right, Ellen. If you don't believe then read this:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-01

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.”

God’s law is the rule of His government. He says,

• [:"red"]“This do, and thou shalt live.”[:"black"]
  But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

---

[:"blue"] Look Robert, you are making her say exactly the opposite of what you have just quoted. If the Law is the rule of His gov't as she says, are you now saying that she is saying that in the NC the believer can now have eternal life in spite of disregarding all the rules of the kingdom? What absurdity!!! What are you smoking my man? [/]

Quote:

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When you are humbled, when you are broken, then God uses Ellen to give you assurance and peace. Yes, you make progress in your Christian walk...but now you are no longer worried about getting to heaven.

---

[:"blue"]Here you go again with your gospel of stealing less, fornicating less coveting less etc., no total repentance/conversion, no real transformation - just a weee liiittle progress of less stealing, less coveting & less fornicating etc., no total cessation from those activities. [/]

Quote:

---

Here's a quote for those who understand grace:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 10-17-07

-AT- The Two Covenants

-PR- 08

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live:

• [:"Red"]
  "If a man do, he shall even live in them"[:"black"]
  (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26.

Note she equates "Obey and live"---"This do, and thou shalt live"...with the old covenant....

Again, why did God give the law when He knew that the legalists couldn't fully keep it? Because they didn't know!

---

[:"blue"]And where's the blessing for the lawbreaking believers? You haven't quoted ONE Scripture that pronounced a blessing to law-breaking. Instead you have been quoting passage after passage condemning unrighteous living!!!

"Obey" is not a dirty four letter word in God's vocabulary, Robert. When you learn how truely Gracious God is, you will find that God does not ask us to do something or anything for which He has not given sufficient grace to accomplish it with. He lifts up the repentant/believing sinner, fills him with His Holy Spirit and now takes the responsibility of working in the believer both the willing & doing for good pleasure, Phil 2:12. That is Good News.

"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;

Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.

Cease to do evil,

Learn to do good." Isa 1:16,17 NKJ.

Note the order with which this is done: 1) Wash & clean -->>Put away evil/cease to do evil, not the other way around. The man of R7 tries the other way around but tragically finds it doesen't work that way. It will always be Jesus first, then the right-doing will follow. "Seek first His kingdom & His righteousness and all these things...." will follow.[/]

Gerry