Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

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Norman said:

This is true but this is not a commandment, it was given specifically for this covetous rich young ruler to reveal to him how he loved his riches more than God and man.

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Context of Matt 19:17-21

If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Jesus replaced "You shall not covet" with "Love your neighbor as yourself." They are interchangeable....Paul expounds on this in Romans 7:7-13.

Now let's talk about what "coveting" really means:

"Love your neighbor as yourself!"

That, if you think about it, is staggering! The way we every day demonstrate our love for ourselves is precisely the way in which we are to demonstrate our love for others. It really is very easy to understand; it is much more difficult to practice!

You are in love with yourself, aren't you? Face it, there is no one on earth more concerned with your happiness or your well-being than you are. There is no one more careful than you to see to it that you are not hungry! No one is more concerned with your rights or your health or your wealth--or your wardrobe for that matter. Our love for ourselves is obvious! It is evident by the fact that we go to whatever lengths necessary to care for our every whim.

Jesus says, that is how you must love your neighbor. His concerns are to be your concerns. His burdens are to be your burdens. His problems are to be your problems. His joys are to be your joys. And his needs are to be your needs--your needs to meet. In short, your neighbor's happiness and welfare are to be the object of your ambition instead of yourself.

Now grace doesn't look to bad, does it? I mean after all we "are falling short" huh? That's what Paul teaches...Sequeira just agrees and I do too!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

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Jesus replaced "You shall not covet" with "Love your neighbor as yourself."

They are interchangeable

....Paul expounds on this in Romans 7:7-13.

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I sse that they are interchangeable Rob, here's why. When you love your neighbor as yourself you won't murder them, you won't steal from them, lie to them or covet what they have, etc... They are described by Jesus as defining Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself.

you said,

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You are in love with yourself, aren't you?

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I also hate myself; that part of me that is called the flesh. I do my best to not give it what it wants. That would be selfishness and it always ends up hurting me or others. I don't live like that as a practice, although I sometimes do give in. Because I'm a spiritual, caring person, I don't live for myself as a general rule. I have been blessed to be able to sacrifice and live a selflesh life. Having said that I do understand what you mean.

Rob you're right we do fall short at times but there are reason for that. If we would surrender to God 100%, we'd be different, we would not fall short of revealing God's glory, His love.

My honest belief is that we are all lacking and the reason for it is that we don't understand the battle that we're in. We honestly don't know or believe the love that God has for us and our response to what we do believe, is luke warm.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

I see that they are interchangeable Rob, here's why. When you love your neighbor as yourself you won't murder them, you won't steal from them, lie to them or

covet what they have

, etc... They are described by Jesus as defining Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself.

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There's the problem, Norm....Loving your neighbor is much more than merely refraining from "killing", "stealing"..."adultery"....That's the letter of the law.

Also, you defined "coveting" as desiring what your neighbor has. This is only true to a point....As I said, Paul defines the spirit of the law by the 10th commandment.

Remember as a Pharisee Paul kept the letter of the law, but something changed. Let's revisit this:

Rom 7:7 "I [Paul] would not have known what sin [singular] was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

Remember, as a Pharisee Paul understood the limited view of "coveting" (as you stated it above). So what changed?

Verse 10 I found that the very commandment [context: the 10th] that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment [i.e., in the absence of a greater knowledge of the 10th commandment], deceived me, and through the commandment [i.e., the 10th] put me to death [condemned me].

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. [Nothing wrong with the law]

13 Did that which is good [the law], then, become death to me? By no means!

Then why?

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good [the law], so that through the [10th] commandment sin might become utterly sinful. And through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

In 1 Cor 13:5...Paul defines "sin" as "self-seeking"! That's the essence or core of "coveting"! Every sin that you'll ever commit is based on "self-seeking"....

While it is true that a Christian matures, it is equally true that he is still practicing some sort of self-seeking. Hence he is never measuring up to the law...i.e., he falls short.

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[i said] You are in love with yourself, aren't you?

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Sorry, that was meant generically and not directly at you....In general we all love ourselves. The opposite of self-love is not self-hate....The opposite of self-love is selflessness.

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Rob you're right we do fall short at times but there are reason for that.

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No...we are never fully measuring up....I can quote Ellen on that one! Nevertheless, as Paul says, "let us live up to what we have already attained" [Phil 3:16] In other words just because one is not measuring up he shouldn't take the attitude "If I can't be perfect I may as well enjoy the flesh."