Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Could you please show us where in Scripture this is found where it says that it is sin to love yourself?

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Does God want us poor? No...God wants us to prosper as His people...but not according to our western way of thinking as individuals. His ideas of prosperity run counter to our capitalistic ways. A glimpse of heaven was seen for a short time in the early church:

Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. [No rich, no poor...everyone prospered] 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need....4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

So when you see Christ's commands to, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor"...when you hear, "no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"...you are seeing heaven's method of prosperity.

Face it...we practice Lucifer's way of prosperity, which brings greed, hatred, jealousy, envy, wars and bloodshed and a host of others sin of the flesh.... Self-seeking destroys peace....

God’s way is laid out in that statement from EGW:

“You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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any Christian who is homeless, educationless, or propertyless is no witness to the power of the gospel. Such a person would [be] loathed by people as a drag to society....

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Then Jesus was ineffective for He was homeless.

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[:"blue"]Jesus homeless? Where do you think He lived in during the first 30 yrs of His life? In the streets? [/]

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You are making up excuses, Gerry. This shows your love of self!

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In case you missed it, here is what the author that you always try to quote and get in your corner when it is convenient. [:"red"]"Our first duty toward God and our fellow beings is that of self-development. Every faculty with which the Creator has endowed us should be cultivated to the highest degree of perfection, that we may be able to do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable."CD p.16

A homeless, educationless, and propertyless person is of no use to society whatsoever! [/]

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You are a typical Adventist....The Jews were great at this too....Limit the law to the things that meet your standard and then keep those things and then consider yourself righteous. And of course ingore those things that you consider rubbish.

Blindness!

Rob

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[:"blue"]Did our righteous and gracious God give a law that no one can obey?

What you are doing is to twist the demands of the law to where NO ONE can obey it so that you can have the satisfaction of calling everyone 100% wretched sinners, born again or not.

Paul clearly says, "Love is the fulfillment of the law."[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Could you please show us where in Scripture this is found where it says that it is sin to love yourself?

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Does God want us poor? No...God wants us to prosper as His people..

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[:"blue"]God wants us to prosper by being homeless, ignorant, and propertyless? [/]

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.but not according to our western way of thinking as individuals. His ideas of prosperity run counter to our capitalistic ways. A glimpse of heaven was seen for a short time in the early church:

Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. [No rich, no poor...everyone prospered] 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need....4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

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[:"blue"]Where is Scripture does it say that what the early church did was a mandate? [/]

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So when you see Christ's commands to, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor"...when you hear, "no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"...you are seeing heaven's method of prosperity.

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[:"blue"]Oh, is that what God wants? Every believer to sell all his possessions to give to the poor? And become homeless, educationless, and propertyless? How much good are you to the poor after you have divested yourself of all your possessions?

Do you know why many people are poor, Rob? Do you how many poor people know how to manage what is put in their hands? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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In heaven there will be no "self"!

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[:"blue"]My friend, look around you. Look at God's creation. You will never find any two that are exactly alike. You need a better understanding of the "self".

[:"red"]"Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator--individuality, power to think and to do.....It is the work of true education develop this power, to train the youth to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thought." Ed 17. [/]

Friend, God wants each one of His creatures to be a distinct self, a distinct individual, a unique person. If you mean by "self", self-centeredness, then I agree with you. But if you mean in heaven there is no individuality, you are dead wrong! [/]

[quote[

We will have everything in common....There's no ownership, like we have here....That smacks of selfishness...you know, "this is mine and that is yours." We will live for others..and they will be living for us.

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[:"blue"]Is that your solution to covetousness? By having no ownership to anything? [/]

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That quote from Is. doesn't disprove what I stated. In heaven there will be no death, so where we live will not be passed on to another....Also there will be no "self" and hence no one will try and force what we share to be their own!

Rob

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[:"blue"] No self? No ownership?

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which NO ONE knows except him who receives it." Rev 12:17 [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Rob how was your day? Good I hope. Here's what I was saying a day or 2 ago. I found it this AM is COL. When she mentions perfection of character, I understand that as being, the ability to love like Christ. It's not talking about sinlessness or absolute perfection.

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected.

Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God."

COL P 331

That is great news because it shows us what God will do for us if we are willing! These types of statements get some people down but I get excited when I read these because it brings me hope that I don't have to stay the way I am. I may not be a gross sinner, but I know what's in my heart and the evil in it, needs to be overcome with good.

Norman

[Robert]

A little distraction:

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Oh, is that what God wants? Every believer to sell all his possessions to give to the poor? And become homeless, educationless, and propertyless? Gerry

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I already told you His righteous method....It is found in Acts chapters 2 and 4.

As to your ranting above, you tell me....Here are some quotes:

Luke 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matt 19:21 “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor...."

Luke 14:33 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

[Robert]

Here guys, do a study on these:

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Rev 3:15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.

The man of Rom 7 knows he is wretched in the eyes of the spirituality of the law. The churched people in Laodicea do not!

Funny how you're calling Paul an unconverted man in Romans 7 yet he sees his condition, but the commandment keeping people of Rev 3 do not! If anyone is unconverted that would be the people of Rev 3....Of course I don't think they are unconverted, just blind!

[Robert]

[Robert]

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Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God."COL P 331

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I use EGW...her good stuff. There's much of what she states that I disagree with. Like all of us she grew...but she also had a very legalistic look at things early on. This is one of them. Listen to what she's saying: "you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will."

That's salvation by will power....That's salvation by keeping the law! In another book she called that "the old covenant". So she can be confusing sometimes....

Take the following blatant contradiction.

Early on:

-BC- AY

-TI- An Appeal to the Youth

-CN- 1

-CT- His Mother's Letters

-PR- 03

-PG- 61

• “The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and he has promised that they shall be in his kingdom. [:"red"]But wicked children God does not love.[:"black"] He will not take them to the beautiful City, for he only admits the good, obedient, and patient children there. One fretful, disobedient child, would spoil all the harmony of heaven. When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you. Although he is in heaven, and you cannot see him, yet he loves you when you do right, and writes it down his book; and when you do wrong, he puts a black mark against you. Now, dear Willie, try to do right always, and then no black mark will be set down against you; and when Jesus comes he will call for that good boy Willie White, and will put upon your head a wreath of gold, and put in your hand a little harp that you can play upon, and it will send forth beautiful music, and you will never be sick, never be tempted then to do wrong; but will be happy always, and will eat of rich fruit, and will pluck beautiful flowers. Try, try, dear boy, to be good.”

Then years later:

PC- Becho

PT- Bible Echo and Signs of the Times

DT- 02-01-92

AT- Ye are Complete in Him

PR- 09

• “[:"red"]Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong[:"black"]; teach them that he loves them so that it grieves his Spirit to see them in transgression, because he knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them."

So we must realize she grew in understanding. She changed her position!

[Robert]

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Jesus homeless? Where do you think He lived in during the first 30 yrs of His life? In the streets?

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Again...not by choice. He lived in a world dominated by the principle of "self". Surely His parents loved him? Surely they provided shelter! [Oh, sorry, your name isn't Shirley...it's Gerry]

From time to time Jesus was invited to stay with Mary, Martha and Lazarus. Again...some friends helping - good for them. But as for Himself Jesus only lived for others.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

I am short on time this morning, I may have some time this afternoon or maybe this evening,

God bless you and have a great day.

Norman

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Oh, is that what God wants? Every believer to sell all his possessions to give to the poor? And become homeless, educationless, and propertyless? Gerry

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I already told you His righteous method....It is found in Acts chapters 2 and 4.

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[:"blue"]Show where it says that what they did was a mandate? The early disciples also cast lots to replace Judas. Is that also a practice we should adopt to elect church officials? Abraham, a friend of God, had taken their servant woman to bring up an heir, should we do too? Saint Jacob & David had multiple wives, should we follow the same practice? [/]

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As to your ranting above, you tell me....Here are some quotes:

Luke 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matt 19:21 “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor...."

Luke 14:33 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

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[:"blue"]Uh, uh. Salvation by self-deprivation? I though salvation was by grace.

If Jesus is literally asking everyone to get rid of all their possessions in order to be His disciple, have you done that Robert? Gotten rid of your home & cars? If not, why not?

Here is what your favorite extra-Biblical author has to say.

[:"red"]"God also entrusts men with means. He gives them power to get wealth...... And He asks for a return of His own.

Our money has not been given us that we might honor and glorify ourselves. As faithful stewards we are to use it for the honor and glory of God. ......All we possess is the Lord's, and we are accountable to Him for the use we make of it....

Money has great value, because it can do great good. In the hands of God's children it is food for the hungry, drink for the thirsty, and clothing for the naked. It is a defense for the oppressed, and a means of help to the sick. But money is of no more value than sand, only as it is put to use in providing for the necessities of life, in blessing others, and advancing the cause of Christ." COL 351[/] [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Jesus homeless? Where do you think He lived in during the first 30 yrs of His life? In the streets?

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Again...not by choice. He lived in a world dominated by the principle of "self". Surely His parents loved him? Surely they provided shelter! [Oh, sorry, your name isn't Shirley...it's Gerry]

From time to time Jesus was invited to stay with Mary, Martha and Lazarus. Again...some friends helping - good for them. But as for Himself Jesus only lived for others.

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[:"blue"]Lived for others by sponging? Is that what Jesus did & wants us to do? Get rid of all our possessions and sponge on others? But wait, if the Marthas, the Marys & Lazaruses were to give up all their possessions also, you couldn't mooch on them because they would have to find someone to sponge on too!!! Voila! All believers wind up mooching on unbelievers who still have their possessions. What a great witness!!! [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

Here guys, do a study on these:

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24

What a wretched man I am!

Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Rev 3:15 “‘I know

your works

: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing;

not knowing that you are wretched

, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.

The man of Rom 7 knows he is wretched in the eyes of the spirituality of the law. The churched people in Laodicea do not!

Funny how you're calling Paul an unconverted man in Romans 7 yet he sees his condition, but the commandment keeping people of Rev 3 do not! If anyone is unconverted that would be the people of Rev 3....Of course I don't think they are unconverted, just blind!

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[:"blue"]So, what you are saying is believers who are supposed to be born again, become new creatures, are not really born again, are not really new creatures because they are still in slavery to sin, still doing what sin tells them to do. Slaves that are supposed to have been set free by Jesus, are not really free. Laodiceans are permanently blind, naked, poor & wretched even when they obey the counsel to buy gold, raiment, & salve!

My friend, you are preaching an effete gospel, a powerless Christ, a helpless Spirit, and an impotent God! That is why I oppose your teachings. You are trying to palm off a sinister teaching as good news a God who is impotent, and a gospel that has no power to change lives. Oh, yes, you acknowledge a little change, a little improvement. But born again? A new man? Not in your theology or vocabulary! [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gerry,

I want to wish you a merry Christmas too.

Norman

[Gerr]

Thanks Norman. I wish you the same.

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Oh, is that what God wants? Every believer to sell all his possessions to give to the poor? And become homeless, educationless, and propertyless? Gerry

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I already told you His righteous method....It is found in Acts chapters 2 and 4.

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Show where it says that what they did was a mandate?

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Mandate? Gerry there's no mandate for you to keep the law....We are not "under the law"....Yes we grow, but never as a means for fulfilling a percentage of the law.

Nevertheless...they were reflecting God's law much more than we do today. We fall short of their experience....We fall short of their agape love.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Is that what Jesus did & wants us to do? Get rid of all our possessions and sponge on others?

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Then please...explain why Jesus said the things he did concerning "possessions"! I am all ears....

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Oh, is that what God wants? Every believer to sell all his possessions to give to the poor? And become homeless, educationless, and propertyless? Gerry

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I already told you His righteous method....It is found in Acts chapters 2 and 4.

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Show where it says that what they did was a mandate?

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Mandate? Gerry there's no mandate for you to keep the law...

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[:"blue"]Wow! No mandate to keep the law!!! Soooo, when Jesus told the man who was healed at the pool of Bethesda, "Sin no more [stop transgressing the law], lest a worse thing come upon you," Jn 5:14 NKJ, that was just a suggestion?

When Jesus told the adulteress, "go and sin no more," Jn 8:11, that was optional?

When Paul said, "Let him who stole [breaking the 8th c] steal no longer," Eph 4:28, I suppose that was not a mandate?

When Paul said that, "those who practice such things [adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like] will not inherit the kingdom of God," Gal 5:21, 19, that was just an empty threat?

"Now all has been heard;

here is the conclusion of the matter;

Fear God and keep his commandments,

for this is the whole duty of man." Eccl 12:13 NIV.

When a lawyer asked Jesus what was the great mandate in the law, what did Jesus say? None?

If you say that there is no mandate to keep the law when the Bible clearly says it does, how then can you even think of using as a standard what the early church did for which there is no command to follow? [/]

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.We are not "under the law"....

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[:"blue"]As the way to salvation, yes, that is absolutely true. But to say that saved people no longer need to keep the law is absolutely false!

As I already mentioned above, Jesus commanded to stop breaking the law. Paul said the same thing. John says that no one who continues to to break the law has either seen him or known him, 1 Jn 3:6 NIV. [/]

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Yes we grow, but never as a means for fulfilling a percentage of the law.

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[:"blue"]And by what standard do you measure a person"s growth by? [/]

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Nevertheless...they were reflecting God's law much more than we do today. We fall short of their experience....We fall short of their agape love.

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[:"blue"]And why is that? Was it because the Holy Spirit is more impotent today? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Is that what Jesus did & wants us to do? Get rid of all our possessions and sponge on others?

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Then please...explain why Jesus said the things he did concerning "possessions"! I am all ears....

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[:"blue"]Well, tell me, did Jesus mean for us to mooch and sponge off of others? If He did, then what He said must be literally true. You would be correct in your understanding. Since you like to take what Jesus said at its most extreme literal meaning, I am surprised that you haven't brought up what He said in Mt 5:29,30, where He also said, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you....And if your right hand cause you to sin, cut if off and cast it from you..." [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

Not to anybody in particular.....just on the subject.....

I got this via email this morning. Some of you may have gotten it too. I copied the main part and will "paste" it.

**"One rainy afternoon I was driving along one of the main streets

of town, taking those extra precautions necessary when the roads are wet and slick.

Suddenly, my daughter, Aspen , spoke up from her relaxed position in her seat. "Dad, I'm

thinking of something."

This announcement usually meant she had been pondering some

fact for a while, and was now ready to expound all that her six-year-old mind had

discovered. I was eager to hear.

"What are you thinking?" I asked. "The rain," she began, "is like sin, and the windshield

wipers are like God wiping our sins away."

After the chill bumps raced up my arms I was able to respond. "That's really good, Aspen."

Then my curiosity broke in. How far would this little girl take

this revelation? So I asked.. "Do you notice how the rain keeps on coming? What does that tell you?" Aspen didn't hesitate one moment with her answer:

"We keep on sinning, and God just keeps on forgiving us."

**(source unknown to me)

>>>Well, pardon me for having this opinion, please...but...

I can't stop sinning somehow, prayers to the contrary notwithstanding....and, I notice many others have the same problem...so-o-o-o it better be the way Aspen says (above) or, I'm in a heap of trouble.. At my age I can't keep different ways of thinking, or different things to do, on my mind all at the same time. I can't keep The Ten Commandments all the time and, frankly, I haven't yet met the man who could or does, no matter who he is....a murderer, or, the best 'saint' I've ever known, or anything in between. (Yes, I knew a murderer once---and, I've known lots of 'saints'!)

I know others read about the sinless life differently than I do, and...God Bless Them!!! But, if absolute keeping of the Ten Commandments and all the scores of subcommandments under each one of them is required, I'll never make it. So-o-o, in that instance, I am reminded of my being like the 'rich man' in the parable----I hope Lazarus will dip his finger in water and cool my tongue.

because, if I'm supposed to become sinless, by any means, including the Holy Spirit, I wouldn't need His Grace, and I am likely to find myself in the sulphuric 'lake of fire'. I don't mean to be cynical, or doubt the 'Word', but I wasn't born yesterday and I see them digging my grave right now....and I don't see things a-changin' very fast.

I know you who think we will become sinless are most sincere and well meant.....but I just don't believe (1) I will become sinless without some real miracle that hasn't happened yet and (2) I don't believe the NT, in the total context of it, teaches a literally sinless andtotally changed life ever occurs in this life here on earth information to the contrary from any extrabiblical source notwithstanding. I know texts taken out of context say differently---but in context, they don't, IMO.

If its not in the Bible, I'm not concerned about it very much. So, I find myself relaxed about it. I have a responsibility to God and man and I'm trying to fulfill it. HE has offered to be responsible for me. I think it is a pretty good deal. Sorry about you guys that have to watch every thought and action every minute expecting a record to be kept in frightening detail (cheirographon??). I can't live that a way. I tried it for the first 55 yrs of my life, very unsuccessfully. I read the Bible and doing it changed my thinking. I can't, nor do I want, to 'go back'. (To each his own!!)

Just my 2 cents worth!

Ben

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I still can't reply as I'd like. I have to prepare to speak this Sabbath.

But quickly, concerning EGW statement to her son, I understand that. That's not a contradiction. There a certain age at which children understand, "be good and don't make Jesus upset." Plus you always teach your own children differently than you would others. I could spank Lee Michael when he was younger but I would not do so to someone else’s child.

I picked up on something you said to Gerry and want to comment.

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Gerry there's no mandate for you to keep the law....We are not "under the law"....Yes we grow, but never as a means for fulfilling a percentage of the law.

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Rom 8:3 "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to deal with sin. He condemned sin in the flesh 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

What was the law powerless to do? 1st whatever it was powerless to do, it could not do because of the flesh. In other words all who were born before Christ could not keep the law in spirit. Why? Because Jesus was the first born among many brethren. Meaning, when Adam sinned he lost the indwelling of the Spirit and was dead spiritually.

Every man born since Adam, was born the same way. But when Jesus was born, He was born like Adam was before He sinned (I'm not talking about His flesh). Meaning He was born with the fullness of the Spirit as Adam was created with. Hence the 2nd Adam. Now that He as done this, it is available to us so that we can have the Spirit of Jesus in us and be like Him, crying Abba Father. Then we truly become His brethen making Him the firstborn among many brethren. If we do not overcome the flesh and fulfill the law in Spirit and deed, we cannot be His brethren in the Spirit; only by the flesh (corporate humanity) but the flesh profits us nothing.

To continue; what was the law powerless to do? It could not make us keep or fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. What was the reason? The flesh. What was the remedy? Jesus came and condemned sin in the flesh. Why? “so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.” How? “who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” We do this because we have received the Holy Spirit and we can live our lives as did Christ in that we can love as He loves. Human love is crucified with Christ at our baptism and we can fulfill the law, love God and your neighbor as yourself in the power of the Spirit.

Rom 6:5 "For if we have become united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old selves were crucified with him so that our sinful bodies might be rendered powerless and we might no longer be slaves to sin."

Not being under the law simply means that we are no longer to use the law to attain righteousness. That was the human problem. Humanities guilt caused us to try to gain favor with our evil (guilty) conscience so that it would not condemn us, both Jews and Gentiles. But now we have favor with God and our consciences are washed clean and we now have boldness and joy to come to our Father through the Lord Jesus Christ. To live in that environment means to be (live) under grace, no longer under bondage to fear and try to earn favor by dead works of the law that can never clear our consciences.

Rom 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery that leads you into fear again. Instead, you have received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

The law now reveals that we have faith as we fulfill it. Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Norman

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Is that what Jesus did & wants us to do? Get rid of all our possessions and sponge on others?

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Then please...explain why Jesus said the things he did concerning "possessions"! I am all ears....

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[:"blue"]Well, tell me, did Jesus mean for us to mooch and sponge off of others? ....

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I am waiting...please quit stalling!

Rob

[Robert]

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Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

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So if we are not fully keeping the law our faith is meaningless?

Do you agree with this statement:

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.