Is the man of Romans 7 converted?

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

That's the dilemma of anyone who tries to keep the law without the indwelling Spirit.

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Only the Spirit of God could have humbled the once egotistical, legalistic Saul. So for Saul to give up his law-righteousness he had to have God's Spirit in Him. That's conversion! Hence Saul became Paul....

So the man of Romans 7 must be converted!

Rob

[Robert]

"The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing." [sC 30]

Paul before conversion: Phil 3:6 "As to righteousness under the law blameless."

Paul after conversion: Rom 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am!

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

Note that both remarks were made in the present tense!

[benherndon]

The 'man' in Romans 7 appears to me to be the Christian. Particularly Paul is dealing with Christianity conscious of the fact that he, Paul as a Jew, and, the gentiles, too, are struggling with the fact that they still sin, at least in relatively small ways, repeatedly, in spite of, and regardless of their mental committment not to sin.

Surely all posting here must realize that they all sin now and then and wish they didn't. Traffic frustrations, knee jerk reactive instantaneous thoughts, thoughts and saying when angered, frustrated, annoyed, moments of doubt wonder, diet, passion----who doesn't fall below the 'goal' or standard of ideal Christian life---fail to follow Peter's 'ladder' fully all the time???

The Ten Commandments did not at Mt Sinai, nor did they in Christ's day, and do not now cover all the duties of the Christian.

It is, also, somehow difficult to teach SDAs in a convincing way that 'commandments' in 1John are referring to the 'commandments' Jesus gave (love God and love man) rather than the Ten Commandments of the Decalogue and all the Law of Moses. This is the same John, we think, that wrote the Gospel of John. Certainly in his 'gospel' he is promoting "belief" rather than "obedience to the Ten Commandments" as what qualifies one to be saved. John 1, Moses gave Law; but Jesus brings grace and truth! And John 3:16 -18. I observe it is easy to be 'saved' compared to what I was taught in my youth when everything tasty, fun and desirable was 'sinful' and of the devil.

Yes, the earlier chapters of Romans set the pattern of thought.....and it is about Christianity and the Christian. It is not about the unbeliever. Oh, yes, the 'unbeliever' is mentioned but only that he is 'lost'. Romans 7 is about the 'believer'-man trying to, willing to be, a Christian in basic intent. He fails, even so. "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God---through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Rom 7:24 (I don't see how anyone can fail to see clearly that Paul in these verses, refers to the Christian man.)

Ben

[Robert]

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benherndon said:

Surely all posting here must realize that they all sin now and then and wish they didn't.

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Ben,

By your above statement do you mean that until we slip we are keeping the whole of the law just as Christ kept it when He walked this earth? Let me remind you of two statements:

1] Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

2] 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves

Quote 1 states that we are missing the mark...we are not measuring up to God's love seen in the life of Christ.

Quote 2 states that we are never without sin....Yes we grow...and yes we become more like Him, but as we are NEVER fully living His life.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Planey,

You have your way of studying. I have mine and I have reasons to study as I do. I still hold the same view today as when I started to read his book about 7 years ago. I read enough it to know that I did not agree. The book is actually Titled "Conquering the Dragon within" and what I did read was pretty good. I may actually go back and read it some day but for now I have other interests.

Is your discussion about the Trinity with Jasd? How's it going?

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Dr. Ben,

I haven't seen you much here lately, it's good to have you in this discussion. I hope all is well with you and your wife.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I was going to post part 2 tonight but I have to shorten it. It's too long and I need time to condense it and to actually finish it. But I have a parable for you to consider.

We are law abiding citizen and I'm sure we all drive the speed limit never exceeding the posted speed. What, you mean there are some who don't? How could that be? We certainly know what it says in Romans 13: 1 Let everyone put himself under the authority of the higher powers, because there is no power which is not of God, and all powers are ordered by God. 2 For which reason everyone who puts himself against the authority puts himself against the order of God: and those who are against it will get punishment for themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear to the good work but to the evil. If you would have no fear of the authority, do good and you will have praise; 4 For he is the servant of God to you for good. But if you do evil, have fear; for the sword is not in his hand for nothing: he is God's servant, making God's punishment come on the evil-doer. 5 So put yourselves under the authority, not for fear of wrath, but because you have the knowledge of what is right.

Why if I were a betting man, I'd bet that just about everyone here speeds at least once a week. What does that mean? We're breaking the law and not only earthly laws but God's law in that we are not obeying government laws (As long as they don't conflict with His laws)

How do we overcome in this area of our lives? Could it be that we'll never be able to overcome because it is sin in our flesh? (Try telling that to a state trooper the next time you're pulled over for speeding.) Now if the government won't let you off how is God going to? Please don't tell me that you can just ask for forgiveness because that is presumption. So how can I stop this behavior? I hate myself for doing this. I try to drive at the right speed but every time I look at my speedometer, I'm speeding. I hate the feeling that I get when I see a trooper and then look down to check my speed and I'm going over! Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body that just wants to speed all the time?

Oh Praise God! I have found the answer! I can just give up and use my cruise control. I just set it to the speed limit and just let the car do driving. All I have to do is to steer, stop or slow down if danger comes up or to obey traffic signs. I have just used my mind to overcome that which I can't control by my flesh. I still hate myself because I cannot drive the speed limit but, I myself observe or serve the law with my mind.

This parable illustrates self, dying and the Holy Spirit taking control when we have decided to stop struggling with something that we cannot overcome. Two important points that Paul makes in Romans 7 is

1. Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. KJV

Paul acknowledges that in his flesh there is nothing good.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul now tells us that he serves the law of God with his mind but that the flesh is always there; however he is not controlled by it. The Christian life is mostly spent in this struggle because we do not understand the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We try to live as good Christians but we fail miserably and cry out from time to time, Oh wretched man/woman that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death? But we usually continue on in our own strength repeating the same mistakes over and over.

There are some (I do not claim to be anything) who have given themselves to God and are living a life of surrender and they know how ungodly they are but they are not guided by their flesh but have died and let the Holy Spirit guide them. Would they clam perfection? No way, because they know what they are like and capable of. Likewise Paul in the present tense knows what he is really like and declares himself to be the chief of sinners, but praise be to God as he tells us, he was no longer controlled by the flesh.

Did he sin and make mistakes? Sure he did, but not in fashion as is described in Romans 7:15-24, that is describing slavery. The word "wretched" in Romans 7:24 is the exact same word (in the Greek, Tal-ah'ee-po-pos) that is found in Rev 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

Wretched is not term used to describe a converted person, it is used to describe those who are lukewarm and are about to be vomited out of Jesus' mouth. When we die to self which is equivalent to experientially dying in Christ, we are married to another and we are empowered by another, the Holy Spirit. 1Co 6:17 “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." We are no longer controlling the temple unless we decide to take it back, and we sometimes do.

I leave you with this SOP sobering statement,

Chapter Title: True Conversion

The word of God plainly tells us that few will be saved, and that the greater number of those, even, who are called will prove themselves unworthy of everlasting life. They will have no part in heaven, but will have their portion with Satan, and experience the second death. Men and women may escape this doom if they will. It is true that Satan is the great originator of sin; yet this does not excuse any man for sinning; for he cannot force men to do evil. He tempts them to it, and makes sin look enticing and pleasant; but he has to leave it to their own wills whether they will do it or not. He does not force men to become intoxicated, neither does he force them to remain away from religious meetings; but he presents temptations in a manner to allure to evil, and man is a free moral agent to accept or refuse.

Conversion is a work that most do not appreciate. It is not a small matter to transform an earthly, sin-loving mind and bring it to understand the unspeakable love of Christ, the charms of His grace, and the excellency of God, so that the soul shall be imbued with divine love and captivated with the heavenly mysteries. When he understands these things, his former life appears disgusting and hateful. He hates sin, and, breaking his heart before God, he embraces Christ as the life and joy of the soul. He renounces his former pleasures. He has a new mind, new affections, new interest, new will; his sorrows, and desires, and love are all new. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life, which have heretofore been preferred before Christ, are now turned from, and Christ is the charm of his life, the crown of his rejoicing. Testimonies for the church Vol. 2 P 293-4

Norman

[benherndon]

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Ben,

By your above statement do you mean that until we slip we are keeping the whole of the law just as Christ kept it when He walked this earth?

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>>>No, Robert-----I mean that we are all sinners all the time! None of us will ever, in this life, be other than sinners. Never, in this life, will we keep the Ten Cs or even Christ's Law perfectly like He did.

[Robert]

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How do we overcome in this area of our lives? Could it be that we'll never be able to overcome because it is sin in our flesh? (Try telling that to a state trooper the next time you're pulled over for speeding.) Now if the government won't let you off how is God going to? Please don't tell me that you can just ask for forgiveness because that is presumption.

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You can't compare apples to oranges! Paul had the spirit of the law in mind when he wrote Romans chapter seven. The essence of the law is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Here...let me quote Paul:

"For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" [Gal 5:14]

Now yes you could argue that "speeding" puts my neighbor in danger and therefore it is breaking the law. But...the spirit of the law also requires that I love my neighbor instead of myself. In a nutshell what the world [and sometimes even the church] calls love is actually based on Lucifer's system of "self-love" and "self-seeking". And this all of us do...all of us!

How did Christ live His life...was it in "self-seeking"? No....I'll give you two quotes:

Mark 10:43 "whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Now EGW:

There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. [Now she gives an example:] You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

The Prince of heaven [Jesus] came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life, a life that would be an example for all human beings. He lived a life free from self-seeking, [how?] wholly [not partially] given to the service of others.”

Do we live to serve...or do love ourselves first and give the leftovers. If we are truthful we love ourselves....This is sin...this is falling short of the glory of God.

So while you might be maturing (and this is good), in God's eyes you are still a sinner in need of His righteousness. Your fruits witness your change of mind, but your flesh witnesses that you are still a fallen human being.

So in that respect "there is none righteous, no, not even one." Or as Jesus said to the Rich Young man: "there is none good but one, that is, God"

You see as a Pharisee Paul kept the basic rules. Not only did he keep the moral law, but he kept the entire dos and don'ts of the Torah. But when he learned that the spirit of God's law requires a selfless life...well his opinion of himself changed.

So we see this transformation of the braggart Saul, who claimed to be blameless, to the humble Paul calling himself a wretched man with respect to the righteousness of God "in Jesus Christ".

Again, in Romans 7 Paul isn't saying that he couldn't help stealing...or committing adultery....No...he was saying that he wasn't totally free of self-love, which is based on the principle of "coveting"....That's all....

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

That's the dilemma of anyone who tries to keep the law without the indwelling Spirit.

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Only the Spirit of God could have humbled the once egotistical, legalistic Saul. So for Saul to give up his law-righteousness he had to have God's Spirit in Him. That's conversion! Hence Saul became Paul....

So the man of Romans 7 must be converted!

Rob

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[:"blue"]If the man of Rom 7 is a converted person, then Paul is one very confused person!!! On the one hand he claims that the converted person in Rom 6 is DEAD to sin, will NOT continue to live in sin but walks in newness of life, no longer slave to sin, instead, is a slave of God & to righteous living, whereas the man of Rom 7 is still under the dominion of sin because sin still tells him what to do & he does it!!!

When the Son sets you free, Robert, you are free indeed! Do you believe the promise? No man can serve two masters. The believer cannot be obeying sin that tells him to do wrong and obey God who tells him to do what's right.

No way, Jose![/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Robert said:

Again, in Romans 7 Paul isn't saying that he couldn't help stealing...or committing adultery....No...he was saying that he wasn't totally free of self-love, which is based on the principle of "coveting"....That's all....

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Ellen White uses many terms to describe this self-love. Here are a few:

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law." CC 299

"Jesus bears tenderly with them [His disciples], not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love." [DA 548]

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God....All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. [1SM 344]

Do we ever reach the point of perfection? Not according to EGW:

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [sins of repetition] to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. [AA 560]

Does the Bible teach this? Yes:

Phil 3:3 For it is we [i.e., we believers] who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. [here Paul is referring to his past as a Pharisee] If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:

5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for law righteousness, faultless.

7 But whatever was to my profit [i.e., all the things listed in verses 5-6] I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish [KJV: "dung"], that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him [that's the "in Christ" motif], not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death [i.e., dead to sin], 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

15 All of us who are mature [the opposite of a carnal Christian] should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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benherndon said:

Surely all posting here must realize that they all sin now and then and wish they didn't.

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Ben,

By your above statement do you mean that until we slip we are keeping the whole of the law just as Christ kept it when He walked this earth? Let me remind you of two statements:

1] Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

2] 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves

Quote 1 states that we are missing the mark...we are not measuring up to God's love seen in the life of Christ.

Quote 2 states that we are never without sin....Yes we grow...and yes we become more like Him, but as we are NEVER fully living His life.

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[:"blue"] "And you He made alive who [:"red"]were dead [/]in trespasses and sins, in which you [:"red"]once walkED[/] according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who [:"red"]now [/] in the sons of disobedience, among whom also [:"red"] we all once conductED ourselves[/] in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." Eph 2:1-3 NKJ

[/]

[:"blue"]"For you [:"red"]were once [/]darkness, [:"red"]but now [/]you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth)....And have no fellowship withs the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." Eph 5:8-11 NKJ. [/]

[:"blue"]"Do you not know that the unbrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. [:"red"]And such WERE some of you. [/] But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:9-11 NKJ.

[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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When the Son sets you free, Robert, you are free indeed! Do you believe the promise?

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Yes...I will be free from sin at the resurrection!

• "The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" [perfection] is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts [minds], but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). To those who have tried so hard to obtain by faith so-called holy flesh, I would say, You cannot obtain it. Not a soul of you has holy flesh now. No human being on the earth has holy flesh. It is an impossibility.

  [1 Cor 15:51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed [the Son will set you free], 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Neither the Bible nor Ellen White teaches perfection. A converted person would know this....Both Job and Saul claimed to be "blameless", but they were deceived. Hence, "If we claim we have no sin we deceived ourselves."

Again the very fact that Job and Saul confessed to their self-righteousness is because the spirit of God came into their lives. They were converted....

Gerry...let me ask you a question: Are you living Christ's life of unselfish love in every aspect? Are you fully living up to the spirit of the law?

The answer has to be "NO"! Yes, hopefully you are maturing...hopefully you are growing in grace, but to say you measuring up to Christ's selfless love would indicate eye problems....It would indicate a need to be converted. But I believe you are converted...your theology is simply confused on this point.

If at any point you can say I am fully living Christ's life, then for that moment you can claim to be without sin. That's Paul's point in Romans chapter 7....So then, again, the man of Romans 7 is fully converted and learning to depend on God's Spirit and not his converted will power as he matures in grace.

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you

once walked

...in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh

and of the mind

, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

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Gerry....Your quote above does not deny that believers are falling short of God's love expressed in the spirit of the law.

Upon conversion the mind is now in agreement with the principle of God's law. Hence it delights in the law of God according to the mind...the inward man. Paul refers to this as "the law of my mind". No longer are the flesh and mind in harmony with each other.

Before conversion the desires of the mind were in harmony with the desires of the flesh, but after our converted minds hate the flesh. Ah, but the flesh is crafty...it is powerful. Hence the converted mind is no match for the craftiness of the flesh. We need the power of the Spirit...

As we learn to walk (and this is a process) in the Spirit and say "no to ungodliness" we make progress, but to say we are perfect doesn't come from the Spirit. It comes from the flesh because it likes to be # 1....It has an ego, so it will claim to be perfect even in heavenly things....That's the essence of self-righteousness.

[Robert]

Some of you state that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted, right? Okay...then he is unsaved, right? "You must be born again"...right?

Well, let's look at the context:

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

This "wretched man" is thanking God for deliverance through Jesus Christ. Do the unconverted do that?

But the bigger question, "Is there any condemnation" to those who are failing to live up to the good they want to do?

Romans 8:1 [:"red"]There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[:"black"] [NASB, NIV, RSV and many other translations]

To be "in Christ" means to have accepted His righteousness by faith....A converted man has done this. Clearly the man of Romans 7 is failing to fully live Christ's life. Yet because he is "in Christ" by faith means that in the heavenly places "he is a new creature...all things have become new." Thus "in Christ" our new humanity stands perfect before God's throne.

Verse 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free [past tense] from the law of sin [i.e., our sinful nature] and death [i.e., the 2nd death]

In our humanity Christ defeated both the law of sin and paid its consequences, that is, the 2nd death.

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law [love] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Conclusion:

A] The man of Romans 7 loves God's law, but he realizes that his only hope is "in Jesus Christ. Yes...he is sinning...he is failing. Is there any condemnation to one whose faith is in Christ?

B] "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

C] In Him we have a new humanity has been set free from "the law of sin" - our sinful nature - and that has experienced the 2nd death.

D] As we learn to walk in the Spirit we progress...but we are never perfect until the resurrection of the just.

Hence, the man of Romans 7 is converted!

Rob

[Robert]

Here's another problem, Gerry. I recently heard someone describe a fundamentalist as one who thinks he understands God's will and wants to make sure everyone else adheres to his theology.

We read from Paul, "For this is the will of God, your sanctification...." There's no problem with that statement because individually we all should be growing in grace, but...the problem occurs when one believes he understands God's will.

I personally can't buy that because no one fully understands the will of God concerning our sanctification! Maybe that's another reason we "fall short"?

If you do believe that you know God's will concerning our sanctification, than please by all means explain the following qutoes:

• “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts." [is 55:8,9]

  "For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.[1 Cor 13:9-12]

  "We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37/EGW]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Robert

I want to reply to a few things you said.

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You can't compare apples to oranges! Paul had the spirit of the law in mind when he wrote Romans chapter seven. The essence of the law is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Here...let me quote Paul:

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Rob, Paul was talking about the flesh and how that in the flesh he could not "DO" the good that he wanted to but that he would "DO" the evil he didn't want to do. He is describing a permanent problem in the flesh. The solution is spiritual but the problem in Romans 7 is with the flesh.

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Again, in Romans 7 Paul isn't saying that he couldn't help stealing...or committing adultery....No...he was saying that he wasn't totally free of self-love, which is based on the principle of "coveting"....That's all....

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Again I don’t see that because he is talking about the struggle in the flesh. He is talking about slavery to the flesh, (Which we all have till we decide to let the Spirit guide us. At that point the flesh will be in subjection to the Spirit by our consent but it will still be there and we will still be tempted)

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Some of you state that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted, right? Okay...then he is unsaved, right? "You must be born again"...right?

Well, let's look at the context:

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

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Rob, the disciples, when they were with Jesus, were unconverted but they were saved except Judas, (John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.) They were not converted till their hopes, desires, dreams were crushed and they saw how hopeless they were when it came to being like Jesus. Their selfishness had taken them to despair. (Sound familiar? Oh wretched man that I am...)

Rob, have you been reading what I have been saying? I am saying the man in R7 is Paul describing his condition (and we are the same) without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That's why he says, Rom 7:18 “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." His flesh has no power to do the good he wants to do.” He is converted but realizes that in his own strength he cannot over come. He is describing all of us without the Spirit guiding us. This happens to everyone, it's not only a Christian thing. Paul described those who were without the law, or if you will, those who don't know Christ and how "their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)"

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This "wretched man" is thanking God for deliverance through Jesus Christ. Do the unconverted do that?

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Exactly my point, this is the converted Paul telling the Romans that he has found the cure for the ever failing wretched man that is in him (and all of us) but that he has him under control by the use of his mind (which is led by the Spirit). Just like the driver who knows the speed limit but is constantly going over. He rejoices when he finds that he can use his mind, stop struggling and let the cruise control take him where he wants to go without breaking the law. He still realizes that he is wretched and can’t obey the speed limit on his own, but now he has control of this problem. He is always free to start driving without the cruise control but he'll end up speeding again. This problem is about self and the ability to do the good that we want to do. In R7: 15-24 self is trying to do good but never can, but in R7:25 the answer, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God” And then he reaffirms the fact that the flesh is always there by saying, “but with the flesh the law of sin.”

That is what Paul is rejoicing about; he has found that by his mind he serves the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin which is, I try t do good but evil comes forth. By his mind which is renewed by the love of God and his love for Christ through the Spirit, he chooses to let the Spirit control him. That is the answer that he is praising God for. Life is a struggle for all of us, but Paul has found the answer for the struggling unconverted Christian. Our love for Christ compels us, “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” Tit 2:14

Norman

[Robert]

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Paul was talking about the flesh and how that in the flesh he could not "DO"

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All of us, believers and non-believers, are in the flesh. Believers retain a fallen, human nature. While our minds are renewed, the flesh remains 100% sinful. There’s no change in the flesh…so I don’t understand your point.

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Rob, the disciples, when they were with Jesus, were unconverted but they were saved except Judas

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No, without conversion there is no salvation. A man must be born again…The disciples were converted…they just weren’t mature early on.

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His flesh has no power to do the good he wants to do.” He is converted but realizes that in his own strength he cannot over come.

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All right! At least you see that R7 is speaking of the converted man….

The flesh never has the power to do good…the flesh doesn’t want to do good. It hates God’s law, so how can you say his flesh “has no power to do the good he wants”?

The context is clear: R 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul’s converted mind, which he calls “the law of my mind” has no power to persistently say “no” to the lust of the flesh (especially what the spirit of the law demands). That’s the issue. “The law of my mind” refers to our will power….We can say no for a time, but eventually the flesh will get us. But IF we let the Spirit deal with the flesh, well, then the Spirit can say “no”….

Rob

[Gerr]

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Gerry...let me ask you a question: Are you living Christ's life of unselfish love in every aspect? Are you fully living up to the spirit of the law?

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[:"blue"]Robert, we have gone over this ground over and over before. Unintentional, unpremeditated, inadvertent sins, the believer will always be guilty of. But premeditated, willful, intentional violation of the known will of God? No way!!! For a believer to do that, he/she would have to let go of Christ first. The Bible is very clear to me when John says, [:"red"] "NO ONE who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he CANNOT go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is HOW we KNOW who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are..." 1 Jn 3:9,10 NIV [/]

Biblical perfection as God requires of believers has nothing to do with faultless performance. But can a believer come to the point of trusting God perfectly? Can you trust God so perfectly that if He asks to sacrifice your only child you would do it? Can you trust God so perfectly even when He allows or He himself took everything you have away from you? Can you have a perfect attitude of willful obedience but unintentionally come short? There was only ONE who had perfect performance in the full sense of the word in the eyes of God. (And BTW, not even Christ was perfect in the eyes of man.) [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Neither the Bible nor Ellen White teaches perfection. A converted person would know this....Both Job and Saul claimed to be "blameless", but they were deceived. Hence, "If we claim we have no sin we deceived ourselves."

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[:"blue"]There is none in any of the verses I quoted does a believer claim he/she has not sinned. One verse does say that "we all once conductED ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." Eph 2:3 Nowhere in Scripture does the Bible claim that willful, intentional, premeditated sinning is a continuing reality in the believer's life. NKJ.

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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The context is clear: R 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against

the law of my mind

, and making me a prisoner of

the law of sin

which is in my members.

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[:"blue"]Pharisees joyfully concurred with the law even in their inner being, but were all the Pharisees converted? Look at your example of the Pharisee & the Publican. How can you say the man of R7 is born againb again while still living like the old man? How can you say he is dead to sin while still living in it? How can you say that as a converted man he has been freed from the dominion of sin and yet still remaining as a PRISONER to the law of sin? A free prisoner? An oxymoron!!!!!! [/]

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Paul’s converted mind, which he calls “the law of my mind”

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[:"blue"]Nowhere does the "law of my mind" = converted min. [/]

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has no power to persistently say “no” to the lust of the flesh (especially what the spirit of the law demands). That’s the issue. “The law of my mind” refers to our will power….We can say no for a time, but eventually the flesh will get us. But IF we let the Spirit deal with the flesh, well, then the Spirit can say “no”….

Rob

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[:"blue"]It is the unconverted, unborn again mind that cannot say "no" to sin. When believers "walk in the Spirit," they will "not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16 NKJ. That is a promise. So, if the man of R7 is still following/obeying what sinful flesh is telling him to do, he cannot be walking with the Spirit!!! [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

How can Paul say, "this is the will of God, even your sancitification," and then not be able to tell us what it means? Paul says that until you have a transformed mind, you cannot know the will of God concerning your sanctification.

[:"blue"]"Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. THEN you will be ABLE to know the will of God - what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect." Rom 12:2 GNT

The Bible tells us from beginning to end what a sanctified is like. There is no guesswork.

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

Some of you state that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted, right? Okay...then he is unsaved, right? "You must be born again"...right?

Well, let's look at the context:

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

This "wretched man" is thanking God for deliverance through Jesus Christ. Do the unconverted do that?

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[:"blue"]If R7 is converted Paul, how can he thank God he has been delivered from sin while remaining as a PRISONER of sin? That's ridiculous! As I said in another post, a free prisoner? Tell that to those guys in solitary confinement!!! [/]

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But the bigger question, "Is there any condemnation" to those who are failing to live up to the good they want to do?

Romans 8:1

[:"red"]There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[:"black"] [NASB, NIV, RSV and many other translations]

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[:"blue"]There is no condemnation for those who are "in Christ", but is there no condemnation for those who willfullly, intentionally, premeditatively, disregard God's law? Then everyone who says, "Lord, Lord..." will be saved. No one lost!

Again, John is clear, those who are "in Christ" will not go on sinning. [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob, I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am. It's great to be able to discuss these things with you, Gerry and the others.

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Paul was talking about the flesh and how that in the flesh he could not "DO"

All of us, believers and non-believers, are in the flesh. Believers retain a fallen, human nature. While our minds are renewed, the flesh remains 100% sinful. There’s no change in the flesh…so I don’t understand your point.

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My point there is while we all have this fallen human nature Paul, in R7:25 is telling us he's found the solution in Christ, to the struggle and constant defeat forced upon us from birth. What we are defeated with is the fight against the flesh. The person that can't control his/her appetite, that has to battle the flesh alone, will usually lose that battle. The pyschological effects of constantly loosing leave him/her in a cycle of sin and spiritual death, trying to do good but continually failing and crying within the words of Paul, "Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me...." Just because a person takes on the name "Christian" That struggle does not go away or change. That we agree upon.

The answer to overcoming this problem is to serve the law with the mind (which is led by the Spirit) If you let the flesh or fallen human nature guide you, then you will have that battle/struggle which will lead to the cry, Oh Wretched man that I am.... But if you stop struggling and give your life over to God and let the Spirit guide you, then you will win the battle. Temptation may come but there is always a way provided to keep the mind pure and the body under subjection. 2Co 10:2 "But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh." In this statement Paul declares that he and others with him, do not walk after the flesh. The flesh has been overcome but it is still there as a vehicle of temptation or it can now be a vehicle of righteousness, by overcoming and choosing rather to glorify God instead of giving in to temptation and thereby sin. Continuing on, Paul states that not only do they not walk after the flesh, but even their thoughts are in control because they have submitted themselves to Christ. 2Co 10:5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" (Verses 3&4 are worth reading too)

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Rob, the disciples, when they were with Jesus, were unconverted but they were saved except Judas

No, without conversion there is no salvation. A man must be born again…The disciples were converted…they just weren’t mature early on.

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I'll put the 2 verses together so you can see this for yourself,

Luk 22:31 “And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

These two things that Jesus said, happened in one day

That's another discussion altogether, maybe we can talk about that some other time.

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The flesh never has the power to do good…the flesh doesn’t want to do good. It hates God’s law, so how can you say his flesh “has no power to do the good he wants”?

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Let me clarify. The human condition is one of trying to please in order to get approval or more specifically to be loved. The flesh "led" person, (which is the condition we are all born with) is going to attempt to serve and please what he/she thinks is going to give them the love or approval they are seeking. Some choose to serve people, some choose religion and some choose Jesus Christ. The flesh led person who comes to Christ will try to please God in order to be loved, accepted, forgiven etc...

There's big problem with that however and it's called the law. The law is always telling the flesh, "you are not good enough and in fact your life is filled with selfishness. The flesh led person continues to try to please and be loved but keeps hearing the law. "Not good enough, you must be perfect." But they still try harder and harder and finally they cry out Oh Wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death. What death? There is no life in defeat, all there is, is sorrow and depression. The law of sin and death has just been described in a nutshell.

Then one day that person says I give up I've had it I'm no longer going to do this and at that moment God says, "Ah my child, you have seen yourself and have come to the light to realize that you are helpless to do the good you want to do. Would you let me in to solve your problem? The person says yes “Lord, please come in and help me.” The Lord says, “Ok, now you must die to self and all will be well." “Die to self Lord?” "Yes, let me show you how I did it." (Christ died to self when He said not my will but thine be done and then went on to suffer the cross)

As the person studies the word he finds how much God loves Him even though he's a living dead person in a horrible mess of sin. Now love brings him to life and he chooses believe the good news and to follow the Spirit from that day. “Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Oh there are failures and battles but the majority of the life is victorious, joyful and a witness to the power of God. He moves towards the prize, not looking back but pressing forward towards the Lord led by the Spirit. Then he cries out, "Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." No longer in bondage, he is free to serve the One he loves and it is beautiful because he knows that he's not serving in order to be accepted or loved but that he is loved and accepted in the beloved and that compels him to serve and share.

That's how it works in the human creation.

Norman

[benherndon]

Norman, I grew up being told what you are saying from birth. I knew I never did it right and the more I prayed the more obvious it was that it wasn't going to happen that I lived without sin of some type. Frustrated and depressed by my inability to avoid sinning, I was about to 'give up'. I heard a sermon by Dr. Des Ford that was the first ever to give me hope of being saved.

So, I don't believe what you have said above is practical Christianity from several points of view.

I am not a prophet of God. I am not the son of a prophet of God but I have attended the 'schools of the prophets' and what you present above is what I was taught, sadly for me. Though, I am not a prophet of God I, with others have certain objective observations which are: Nobody I've ever known amongst the thousands of SDAs has ever attained, even from my own honest and intelligent observation EVER lived any length of time without sinning, falling short of the goal of perfection and abandonment of all selfishness!!

Everyman and woman sins every day of his/her life! Committment to the guidance of Christ and the Holy Spirit to the contrary notwithstanding nobody ever gets literally sinless in this life.

Furthermore, the Law of Moses and not even any part of it is binding upon the Christian. To say that it is reveals to me, IMHO, that they do not know the NT well or that they are allowing another to interpret the NT for them to which they are subscribing. They are also revealing to me, IMHO, that they are not acquainted with all the various 'speak' from our founder, which were given under different circumstances from time to time in her life and, thus, different and conflicting statements which one or the other could be used to 'prove' opposing belief positions.

So, since we never overcome, for example, our self-centeredness and other SDA-type (not Biblical-type) sins of appetite and passion and fashion, we struggle with those innumerable "sins" in our minds.

Read the headings of those chapters in Rom 7 and it will be obvious the translators understood them in the way I am saying, IMHO. Do you think the translators understood those chapters in the way you are promoting?---if I understand your promotion properly? If I don't, please correct me.

Paul is saying that we will struggle with those sins in this life, but we have a "Way" out through Christ Who "covers" those deficiencies, those sins, by HIs Grace---not counting them against us. I am not speaking of those lists of gross persistent practiced sins listed so often in the NT epistles or those in Rev 21:8 that contribute to the second death. And....I don't think Paul is referring to those types of sin in Rom 7.

Ben