What is the Gospel?

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Nicodema said:

All I ask is that this thread be reserved exclusively for GOOD NEWS.

---

Okay....The "good news" is that "in Christ" you have heaven full and complete! No worries....

[Nicodema]

I haven't just been relying on this thread by the way. I've posed the question elsewhere, searched, done some reading in scripture, done some praying.

Romans 3, for example, I found lots of good news in.

Romans 3:20: [:"blue"]By works of law NO FLESH will be justified in His sight, for through law comes the knowledge of sin.[/] As we seek to obey God, we can never have justification through our own acts of obedience. We can never refer to the law and obtain justification. Why? Because whenever we compare ourselves to the righteous demands of God's holy law, we will (if we are 100% honest) always see ourselves as falling short and see our sin instead. Thus the law (though holy, just and good) can ONLY condemn us. It can NEVER justify us!

Romans 3:21-22: [:"blue"]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested ... even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL those who believe; for there is no distinction...[/] It doesn't matter how you were raised, or what nation or culture you hail from. Jew or Greek or Roman, raised in the church or out ...

Romans 3:23: [:"blue"] for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,[/] -- that's EVERYONE. ALL (1) have sinned; (2) fall short of God's glory (His manifest and revealed character of LOVE)

Romans 3:24: [:"blue"] [and are] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.[/] -- Justification is by God's grace (unmerited, undeserved blessing and favor). It is a gift given freely to anyone without distinction of whence they came.

Romans 3:28: [:"blue"] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.[/] -- Justification is a completely separate matter from obedience to the Law. It is entirely a gift. We cannot earn it no matter how closely and carefully we obey God's holy law. We cannot merit it. It is given as a gift freely and comes to us through faith.

THAT is some GOOD NEWS!!!!!

Anyone got more?

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Nicodema said:

Romans 3, for example, I found lots of good news in.

---

I was a bit puzzled at your strongly negative response to my earlier post, and your characterization of it as 'bad news.' After reading your latest post, excerpted herein, I think I understand why. I perceive that you have some definite ideas about what the 'good news' is, and what you want to hear or see on this thread. Your initial post posed the question, what is the good news of the gospel? That opened the topic wide for response. Now, various opinions exist as to what the 'good news' may be. Different views would foreseeably be expressed, which would, also, foreseeably result in some disagreement between those who posted those views.

For someone who has taken it upon himself or herself to do everything which God requires, and feels guilty at failing, then the suggestion that it doesn't matter what you do, or if you fail, to still be saved, sounds like wonderful good news. On the other hand, there just may be more to the story. The real gospel of Jesus Christ just may cause such a change in a person, may so empower a person, as to both desire and to actually do God's will, and to stop failing. THAT is good news! However, that can make some people feel guilty or uncomfortable. To them, it is not good news. They don't want to hear that, but to stay within their comfortable feeling of not having to worry about what they do or don't do when, in fact, they could have wonderful relief by no trying to do it alone, but by placing all on the altar, and giving all the life to Jesus.

By God's grace, I have experienced the power (dunamis) of God unto salvation (Rom. 1) In answer to prayer, God has changed me, given me victories over sins and temptations, and has set me free from Satan's power. He has empowered me to will and to do of His good pleasure. I see progress in my life, through communion with Jesus, walking with Him. Now THAT is good news!

I would suggest that if you, or anyone, wishes to have greater control over what is posted on a thread, then I think there is the option of setting up a private forum??? Doing so would permit the moderator to restrict what appears on the thread. Of course, all of that would not serve the cause of truth, but, then again, it depends on what a person is trying to accomplish.

Regards, Dave

[Robert]

Quote:

---

The real gospel of Jesus Christ just may cause such a change in a person, may so empower a person, as to both desire and to actually do God's will, and to stop failing.

---

That's bad news for us sinners, Dave. We haven't achieved your holy living...we are still falling short. I'm glad that you are perfect like our Master, Jesus Christ.

[Clio]

That's not what Dave said, Rob.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "I see progress in my life, through communion with Jesus, . . ."

Dave did not say he was perfect. One cannot read and understand the above and see him claiming sinless perfection in an absolute sense.

I suggest that you read future posts a little more carefully, be less quick to jump to sarcasm as your response appears to me to be, and give him a public apology.

[Robert]

I've read enough of Dave's work to realize legalism when I see it....No apology!

[Clio]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

I've read enough of Dave's work to realize legalism when I see it....No apology!

---

No you haven't. He's not a legalist either. He also understands the responsibilities that come with being a redeemed Child in the House of the King. Just as you expect your children to be obedient, so does Abba.

It is through faith and grace, that we are redeemed, and it is through faith and grace that we are made able to be obedient.

Read the book of James. Faith without works is just as dead as works without faith. It TAKES BOTH.

Clio

[Nicodema]

Romans 3:20: [:"blue"]By works of law NO FLESH will be justified in His sight, for through law comes the knowledge of sin.[/] As we seek to obey God, we can never have justification through our own acts of obedience. We can never refer to the law and obtain justification. Why? Because whenever we compare ourselves to the righteous demands of God's holy law, we will (if we are 100% honest) always see ourselves as falling short and see our sin instead. Thus the law (though holy, just and good) can ONLY condemn us. It can NEVER justify us!

Romans 3:21-22: [:"blue"]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested ... even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL those who believe; for there is no distinction...[/] It doesn't matter how you were raised, or what nation or culture you hail from. Jew or Greek or Roman, raised in the church or out ...

Romans 3:23: [:"blue"] for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,[/] -- that's EVERYONE. ALL (1) have sinned; (2) fall short of God's glory (His manifest and revealed character of LOVE)

Romans 3:24: [:"blue"] [and are] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.[/] -- Justification is by God's grace (unmerited, undeserved blessing and favor). It is a gift given freely to anyone without distinction of whence they came.

Romans 3:28: [:"blue"] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.[/] -- Justification is a completely separate matter from obedience to the Law. It is entirely a gift. We cannot earn it no matter how closely and carefully we obey God's holy law. We cannot merit it. It is given as a gift freely and comes to us through faith.

[Clio]

Nico... The works aren't of man... They are the fruit and following of the leading of the Spirit which indwells the believer after salvation by grace and faith alone.

It is the redeemed one's response to the Holy Spirit's promptings that constitute the "works" that go with living faith. It has nothing to do with flesh or humanity and everything to do with the new creature in Christ Jesus.

Clio

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Nicodema said:

Seriously. What, really, is the "good news"? OK, it has something to do with Jesus, maybe with His death on the cross, but what is it?

---

[:"red"] "

Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? [/]Galatians 3:3 NLT

[:"red"] "Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it]." [/] Gal 6:2 AMP

[:"red"] "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." [/] Philippians 1:6

[:"red"] "I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing." [/] John 15:5 AMP

Keep looking up!!

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Clio said:

He's not a legalist either. He also understands the responsibilities that come with being a redeemed Child in the House of the King.

Just as you expect your children to be obedient, so does Abba.

---

Gal 3:10 "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident for the just by faith will live.

Quote:

---

Read the book of James. Faith without works is just as dead as works without faith. It TAKES BOTH.

---

Legalism!

The examples given in James chapter four have nothing to do with "law-keeping"! Abraham's faith was manifested in that he was willing to take his son’s life [murder]. Since God had promised the Messiah through Isaac's seed, Abraham believed that even if he killed Isaac that God would raise him from the dead. That's faith....

And Rahab the harlot was willing to put her life on the line to protect the spies. Technically she lied [broke the law] in doing so. And she was still a prostitute at that time.

In both cases their faith was revealed in action [works], but not in law obedience as we understand it.

As to the law, Paul says: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom 3:28

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Clio said:

Nico... The works aren't of man...

---

Wrong! If you are depending on your/his works to save you, then those works are from you.....They are self-righteous works that will condemn the legalists in the judgment.

[Clio]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Quote:

---

Clio said:

Nico... The works aren't of man...

---

Wrong! If you are depending on your/his works to save you, then those works are from you.....They are self-righteous works that will condemn the legalists in the judgment.

---

Robert... No ONE EVER SAID OUR WORKS SAVE US!

What is being said, and you clearly DON'T GET, is that the redeemed (through faith and grace) are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is HIS WORKS IN US, and us being obedient following acceptance (through faith) of the free gift (grace) of salvation, that works the changes in us, that are the works of the Spirit.

It doesn't bring about salvation, it is the result of salvation and an earnest seeking after Jesus.

The fact that the Holy Spirit and Jesus effect those changes in us FOR US is indeed good news.

I wonder if all your vituperation is a result of a confusion arising from using the same word, works to describe "works of the flesh" and the works of the Holy Spirit through the obedient redeemed, which are Spirit-filled works of Abba and have nothing to do with earning your way to Heaven.

Once again. If you would take the time to read The Blood Covenant, much of your misunderstandings would be swept away.

Clio

[Gerr]

Nico, may I have your permission to pose a question?

Heb 4:2 says, "For we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they head did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard." NASB

What was the "good news" preached to the Israelites in the wilderness?

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Clio said:

It doesn't bring about salvation, it is the

result

of salvation and an earnest seeking after Jesus.

---

There's no doubt that those resting fully in what Christ did 2000 years ago will mature. This maturity has two purposes:

1] It is used as a witness to attract others to Christ.

2] These fruits will be used in the judgment for Christ to silence the accuser of the brethren.

Christ doesn't use our fruits to prove our righteousness because technically speaking "there is none righteous, no, not even one." So it isn't how mature we grow in grace or how many good works we've done that gets us in...rather Christ uses our fruits to prove the source of our works. What does that mean?

Those who are basing their salvation on faith + works are perverting the gospel. You see the gospel is based on Christ's doing and dying. We can't add our works to that perfect redemption. Those who insist on adding works to the salvation equation produce self-righteous fruit even though they might attribute their works to the Spirit.

Those who are depending solely on Christ's work, accomplished 2000 years ago, will bear fruit free of self-righteous acts.

So the fruits do not save us, rather the fruits point to the gospel we have received. As I've said, a false gospel produces self-righteous fruits that will condemn the so-called believer in the judgment.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

Heb 4:2 says, "For we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they head did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard." NASB

What was the "good news" preached to the Israelites in the wilderness?

Gerry

---

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

We have egocentric, deceitful natures. Our natures are proud....As Jack Sequeira says, "Mankind is legalistic by nature." Essentially the Israelites said, "God you give us your law and we will keep it. In return you owe us heaven."

They were deceived that they could keep the law. After all that's why the majority of Jews in the time of Christ rejected Him....They had the law, they didn't need Jesus. Why? They were good people! That's the essence of sin's deceitfulness.

14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. [We must have the assurance of salvation] 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion.”

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert?

What was their sin...law breaking? No! Unbelief because of their law keeping....They didn't consider themselves sinners.

18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?

Canaan was a type of heaven. Why didn't those Moses led out of Egypt enter Canaan? Gerry attributes their loss to disobedience to the law. But in fact it was "unbelief"!

19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

[Yong T Tay]

The following is a quote from Jack Sequeira's study materials:

"Our part in the judgment is to stand firmly on the gospel platform of Not I, but Christ. This is what justification by faith is all about [read Phil. 3:9 (in the context of vs. 3-8)]. Christ’s part in the judgment, as our High Priest, is to vindicate the saints and acquit them of Satan’s accusations [read Zec. 3:1-4]. This is what the Day of Atonement service pointed to.

But how does Christ vindicate the saints, who are condemned by His own law as sinners, yet who are standing solidly on the platform of justification by faith or not I, but Christ? Before I can answer this question, I need to expose you to a Biblical paradox concerning the truth of justification by faith. The Bible, and especially the New Testament, contains two sets or groups of texts that on the surfice seem to contradict each other.

On the one hand, you have statements that clearly indicated that we sinners are saved by grace alone, or justified by faith alone, apart from keeping the law or doing any good works. On the other hand, this same Bible, and especially the New Testament, also tells us that we Christians will be judged and rewarded according to our works. In case you think I am creating this problem, let me point you to a few of these paradoxical texts:

Justified by faith alone: Rom. 3:28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5.

Judged by works: Matt. 16:27; Jn. 5:28,29; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12.

Because the human mind cannot easily handle contradictions or paradoxes in the Bible, the tendency has been to harp on one group of texts at the expense of the other. For example, the evangelical Seventh-day Adventists emphasize the “justification by faith” texts while the conservative SDAs emphasize the “judged by works” texts. But truth demands that we give both texts equal consideration. Only then will we be able to solve the paradoxical problem as well as explain how Christ is able to vindicate the saints in the judgment.

To solve the paradoxical problem of these two groups of texts, we must look at a third group of texts that brings these two sets of texts together. This third group of texts point out that genuine justification by faith always produces works. These works do not have any merits or save us but they are clearly the evidence of justification by faith. The apostle James makes it very clear that faith without works is dead [read Ja. 2:14,17,20].

What James is saying here is that if justification by faith does not produce works of love, then really our faith is a sham and, therefore, nonexistent. Notice how he uses Abraham, the father of the Jews as well as justification by faith, as an example [read verse 21-24]. Incidentally, we must not confuse works of faith, which James is here upholding, with works of the law, which Paul condemns in his epistles-explain the difference [1 Thes. 1:2,3].

Having solved this paradoxical problem between faith and works, we are now in a position to see how Christ is able, in the investigative judgment, to vindicate believing sinners who put their faith in His righteousness. While Satan may be right in accusing us as sinners Christ, our advocate, brings up our works — not to prove our righteousness, for we have none, but to prove our faith in His righteousness, i.e., righteousness by faith.

Christians who by faith put their full confidence in the righteousness of Christ will manifest it by their works of faith. In the investigative judgment, these works will be used by Christ, our defense lawyer, to prove our faith is in His righteousness [read Rom. 10:4]. Once He does that, Satan will have to prove that Christ Himself is a sinner. This he cannot do [read Jn. 14:30].

As a result, Christ will win the case and rebuke Satan (Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?). That is why the doctrine of the investigative judgment is good news and must be proclaimed as part and parcel of the plan of salvation [read 1 Jn. 4:16-18]."

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Rob,

You said,

Quote:

---

Christ doesn't use our fruits to prove our righteousness because technically speaking "there is none righteous, no, not even one." So it isn't how mature we grow in grace or how many good works we've done that gets us in...

rather Christ uses our fruits to prove the source of our works

.

---

It is true that their is none righteous in and of themsleves, but when God calls and chooses someone they are made righteous and it is revealed in their willing, loving works.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Rom 6:22 ye have your fruit unto holiness , and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness , and the end everlasting life.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.

Norman

[Robert]

Quote:

---

It is true that their is none righteous

in and of themsleves

, but when God calls and chooses someone they are made righteous and it is revealed in their willing, loving works.

---

No, they are not MADE righteous....That is Holy living by compulsion!

The Bible is clear:

Rom 3:22 For there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Mat 19:17 There is none good but one, that is, God.

Ecc 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

yongttay said:

The following is a quote from Jack Sequeira's study materials:

---

I find quite intriguing, the various theories and explanations which are propounded about this issue. In the Adventist church, there seems to have been, in previous decades, a strong emphasis on works. More recent decades have seen what certainly looks like an effort to compensate for that over-emphasis. Now, any mention of 'works' promptly sends many people over the edge. It is quite different in other churches. I have contacts and friends in some of these churches. The trend there has been the reverse--an awakening to the importance of works, after decades of emphasizing grace. I look at all this and can only say, "Fascinating!!!"

Okay, let's cut to the chase. However you want to package it, whatever wrapping you want to give it, there is a bottom-line. Jesus came to save His people from their sins. Jesus died to set people free from bondage to sin. Jesus came to restore people to righteousness. Jesus, as a loving Parent, came to help His fallen children. What mom or dad, who cares about her or his children, would not want to see those children learn to be successful and productive? Surely Jesus wants that for us, in living the Christian life.

We are given this life, in which to decide which direction we want to go. God gives us freedom to choose. How do we manifest that choice? By accepting Jesus, and by walking the talk. I believe that God is in the business of rescuing people and restoring them to the image of God. He is fully able to do this, if we will cooperate with Him. Most, if not all of us, tend to vacillate between the world and the kingdom. God is drawing us, calling us to a decision--to decide which direction we finally want to go.

The day will come when the door is closed--when whatever decisions people have made, are final. If we continue to sin, then it is clear what decision we have made. After all, we cannot continue to sin in heaven. That is what this life is for--to provide us with the opportunity to prepare for heaven, to renounce sin and follow Jesus with all our hearts. He is able, and He is faithful, if only we will cooperate with Him.

From an accounting standpoint, once the books are closed, the books are closed. that is referred to as "the close of probation." On the one hand, if we were to continue to sin after that time, then there is no more opportunity for forgiveness, because that phase of Christ's ministry has ended, and He is coming back to render to each one according to His works. (Rev. 22:10, 11) In the past, as I have reviewed that truth with Adventists, I have on a number of occasions, watched their faces literally turn white with fear, beads of sweat form, hands shaking.

But, that need not be, because, on the other hand, Jesus is faithful, and He will bring His people to whatever point they need to be in preparation for that day. If only they would turn to Jesus, and surrender their lives to His Lordship, He would prepare them for that day, and He would see them safely through. Those whose lives are hid with Christ in God, are safe from the judgment, because they are complete in Him. That is the good news! The solution is not to sugar-coat or explain away the facts. If we truly care about people, we will warn them and call them to repentance, and to turn to Jesus for help and safety. He will not fail them.

Regards, Dave

[Clio]

Amen and Amen, Dave.

I still sin. No doubt... but I see improvement, and completion where I have allowed and asked the Holy Spirit and Jesus to work in my life.

Do you think those who fully surrender to Jesus and walk out this ideal with Him will be able to say, "I no longer sin. I am complete in Jesus."?

And if they are able to say it, will they? And if they do, what kind of a reception will they get?

Clio

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Clio said:

Do you think those who fully surrender to Jesus and walk out this ideal with Him will be able to say, "I no longer sin. I am complete in Jesus."?

---

Clio, I believe that the closer one comes to Jesus, the more focused s/he will be on Jesus, losing sight of self. An old hymn says, "Not I, but Christ . . ."

My experience with this is that the closer I feel to Jesus, the more I want to be close to Jesus. When I discover things in my life which are not in harmony with a close walk with Jesus, then I want to be rid of those things, and have nothing between me and Jesus.

And, the closer I come to Jesus, the more I recognize my sinfulness. I turn away from sin, and turn to Jesus, but I have sinful tendencies. In fact, my best service to God is still polluted and, I believe, only acceptable through the merits of Jesus. My hope is in Jesus, and my confidence is in His saving grace and His perfect righteousness. I guess I couldn't see myself saying that I had arrived. Instead, I find myself thinking, "He must increase, but I must decrease."

Well, I hope all of that makes sense, Clio.

Regards, Dave

[Clio]

It makes perfect sense, Dave, as it's how I feel myself... with one exception... as I look at my life, and walk it out with Jesus, I see the change.

And while I'm not deserving of such grace, I'm certainly worthy, because Jesus Himself deemed me worthy, and I will not say He's wrong.

Sinful tendencies, yes. Giving in to them? No. Not ever, any more. Not since I learned what the Blood Covenant really is. And by His Grace, Jesus has and will continue to give to me the power and strength to not give in and do, say, think, or feel, anything I know to be sin.

Am I perfect? NO. But I'm a very different person than I was even a year ago. And the person I was six years ago? Doesn't exist any more. I do not have the same "besetting" sins. In fact, those habitual sins are gone. But then, I've been praying that He would make me a picture of Him, to refine me in the fire, purifying all dross from me. I have asked for faith as high as Denali and as deep as the Pacific. And these have been consistently in my prayers since January of 2000.

(You might be able to tell that's a date that divides many and much of what has happened in my relationship with Jesus...)

And yet, even those each of these things is true, and those who knew me then and know me now can attest to the difference in me, merely speaking them is going to get me flamed.

Yet, I am NOT that person, and those sins of hers, are not mine. They are thrown into the depths of the sea, and beset me no more. They are forgiven, and forgotten, and the guilt is also taken away.

There is true victory in my life, thanks to the grace, mercy, and transforming power of Jesus.

Yet, in the back of my mind, it is a constant that there is no known sin in my life... and a slightly horrified feeling that thought could even be there. And yet when I place my life under a magnifying scope, it is a true statement. And I find that my prayers have changed yet again.

Now my prayers are to reveal any unknown sin in my life that I might turn from it, repent, and be forgiven. They tend to be maintenance prayers too, to keep my understanding of true, heartfelt submission intact, to continue to be a reflection of Jesus, as near as possible in this world, and to bind my ears to hearing only His voice, my eyes to seeing the path ordained for me to walk, and my feet to walking only in those ways He has blessed.

But... I understand what you are saying. He must always increase and I must decrease, and it is through this that freedom in Jesus truly exists.

Clio

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Clio said:

And yet, even those each of these things is true, and those who knew me then and know me now can attest to the difference in me, merely speaking them is going to get me flamed.

---

LOL I do understand. Been flamed myself a few times. But, this too shall pass. In all honesty, I must admit that I have not yet attained. I still fall short of the mark, more times than I would like to think about. Yet, I see progress, and I know why I fall when I do. I find that as I keep focused on Jesus and on seeking souls for His kingdom, temptations lose their power. The times of greatest blessing for me, are when I do the work which God has given me, of reaching people for Jesus.

Thanks, Clio, for candidly sharing your experience with Jesus. Your story reminded me of an old gospel song, "Victory in Jesus" (that one's not in the SDA hymnal, but is a good song.) God bless you!

Dave