What is the Gospel?

[benherndon]

I know I probably said I wouldn't commment anymore on this thead but your saying this, Dave, modified my reaction to you:

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LOL I do understand. Been flamed myself a few times. But, this too shall pass. In all honesty, I must admit that I have not yet attained. I still fall short of the mark, more times than I would like to think about. Yet, I see progress, and I know why I fall when I do. I find that as I keep focused on Jesus and on seeking souls for His kingdom, temptations lose their power.

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>>>I said this sort of thing to myself a "thousand times" when I was probably close to your age, more or less...Well, here I am 83 and I'm still saying it! I'll be long gone....but I'd like you to tell the folks how you feel about this subject when you get to be 83 with one foot in the grave and the other on the proverbial banana peel, like me right now. What real improvement happens is usually due more to shrinking hormones and other deteriorations than gradual perfection!....you know when the hormones drop the thoughts are easier corralled, movement is more painful, the 'flaming' is less trigger-happy, and, yes, its gradual salvation by increasing senility!!....you don't get any credit for all that which is due to mental, hormonal and physical deterioration. Cheer up! Your future is coming!

When you've kept one Sabbath perfectly, just let me know....but you better do it pretty quick or I'll be gone, already!

Hehe! LOL

Ben

[Clio]

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archierieus said:

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Clio said:

And yet, even those each of these things is true, and those who knew me then and know me now can attest to the difference in me, merely speaking them is going to get me flamed.

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LOL I do understand. Been flamed myself a few times. But, this too shall pass.

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Hallelujah, yes, and Amen!

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In all honesty, I must admit that I have not yet attained. I still fall short of the mark, more times than I would like to think about. Yet, I see progress, and I know why I fall when I do.

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Erhm... I know I've said this before, and I suspect people are tired of hearing it ... but... please.. Get the book The Blood Covenant by H. Clay Trumball and read it. And as you read it, look up the texts he references throughout his work. Reading those texts in the context and understanding of what a Blood Covenant is and does (and believe me, we Occidental thinkers have NO CLUE to the extent to which a blood covenant operates!)will do more to help you understand and overcome those missing the mark moments, than anything I've ever read or experienced.

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I find that as I keep focused on Jesus

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Always. I talk to Him constantly. Literally all day long. Comments, asides, questions... and I've discovered as I walk with Him, that He answers. Sometimes literally in my mind. I've also discovered, since really beginning to develop a relationship with Him and Abba, in January 2000 (there's that date again... )that as I've walked out His plans, I now recognize when He's on the move again and stirring the pot, so to speak.

I've had people try and shake my faith, and even offer counterfeits to what He has in mind. And even with no proof, I have to shake my head and say, "I know Jesus. I know His Hand when I see it. It's the same as if I could see only the hand of my husband, I would still know it was him."

But that's a recent development. As shortly as 6 months ago, I couldn't say that. But I can now. And I know that I know that I know it, because I've walked out His plans often enough. The last two years while hubby has been sick has been an incredible training ground. There is so much truth to the Bible's comment that trials produce patient endurance which leads to godliness. Provided one views them from a submissive, yielded, trusting heart that truly believes Abba doesn't make mistakes and has one's best interests at heart.

"Perfect love casts out fear".

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and on seeking souls for His kingdom, temptations lose their power. The times of greatest blessing for me, are when I do the work which God has given me, of reaching people for Jesus.

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I think that's cool Dave. I do. And while I know I reach others for Jesus, that is incidental to the task on my plate from Him at the moment. My only caution, from what I have seen in your writings is simply this.

Don't obscure Jesus through teaching Adventism. Sometimes what our church teaches as salvific, isn't. Don't confuse the milk needed by a baby believer, with the meat a more mature believer can handle. Spoiled milk will make you sick, but spoiled meat will kill you. The same holds true for the milk and meat of the Gospel.

Paul knew this, that's why he used that analogy in his writing.

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Thanks, Clio, for candidly sharing your experience with Jesus. Your story reminded me of an old gospel song, "Victory in Jesus" (that one's not in the SDA hymnal, but is a good song.) God bless you!

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No thanks are necessary Dave. I am only being obedient. He told me not to worry about speaking up. The blood is only on the hands of the watchman if he fails in his duty to give warning. If warning is given, and the listeners don't heed it, then the blood is on their own head and hands.

I know there are members here who really think I've gone off the deep end at times. And several have told me I teach falsehood. I hope you don't feel that way. I continue to speak because I want everyone to have the joy, peace, and intimate communion with Jesus that I am experiencing in my life.

It took me 6 years to get here... there was a lot of painful tearing down of strongholds, stripping away and destroying the strongholds of fear, rebellion, stubbornness, self-exaltation, self-determination, resentment, fear, doubt, deception, self-deception, and replacing it with the work of the cross and crucifixion of self. But once the foundation pieces were in place, the rest began to be seen.

Another book I found extremely helpful was Shattering Your Strongholds by Liberty Savard. She's not an SDA writer, but my life and the results of learning the truths she teaches about prayer and strongholds...*shakes head*

When an emergency comes up, that's the form my prayer takes, and Abba ALWAYS answers. Always. In just the last three years, He's bought me a van; fixed a cracked block while I and the mechanic watched; pushed my car home over two miles; made my car run, smoothly for months, while two different mechanics just shook their heads and told me it shouldn't even move, much less be drivable; provided money out of nowhere; stretched the fuel oil in my fuel tank; kept clothing from wearing out for over 3 years; made staples (flour, oil, sugar, beans, rice) last far, far longer than they should; and most amazing of all, changed the heart of my husband.

That, perhaps, is the most amazing miracle of all. That took 6 years of constant, structured, binding and loosing prayers (Savard), and me learning how to hear His Voice. Once, as I opened my mouth to witness, the Spirit shouted "Shut UP" in my ear so loud I jumped. Fortunately, I'd gotten past my stubborness at that point and just picked my jaw up off the ground silently.

*shakes head* Not everything has been as easy to learn as that lesson. Sometimes it's not my job to witness, because that person might not be able to "hear" me.

Clio

[archierieus]

Ha! The ol hormones. Well, Ben, that is one area in which by God's grace, I have been victorious. I was married for years. Then, my wife divorced me and I was out on my ear. I was hurt, lonely, vulnerable and a normal red-blooded American male. For several years, I had some REAL struggles. But, I persisted in prayer, and with the LORD's help have developed moral firmness and have refused to go down that road. Not even by a thought, do I now stray where I should not go. Not even the suggestive graphics and news stories on the news websites, get my interest. (And, as a result, I don't get those annoying 'come-on's' which I hear others are plagued with, the pop-ups on the web. I suppose the "spies" keep track of my web interests--quit drab, from a marketing standpoint.) I thank God for the victory!!! Oh yes, there are still weak moments, but when those hit, I immediately turn to God in prayer. I still have other areas to deal with, but that one is no longer a problem. God is faithful! BTW, Sabbaths are very special and cherished times for me. I jealously guard my time with God, against all comers!

Regards, Dave

[Clio]

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benherndon said:

>>>I said this sort of thing to myself a "thousand times" when I was probably close to your age, more or less...Well, here I am 83 and I'm still saying it! I'll be long gone....but I'd like you to tell the folks how you feel about this subject when you get to be 83 with one foot in the grave and the other on the proverbial banana peel, like me right now. What real improvement happens is usually due more to shrinking hormones and other deteriorations than gradual perfection!....you know when the hormones drop the thoughts are easier corralled, movement is more painful, the 'flaming' is less trigger-happy, and, yes, its gradual salvation by increasing senility!!....you don't get any credit for all that which is due to mental, hormonal and physical deterioration. Cheer up! Your future is coming!

When you've kept one Sabbath perfectly, just let me know....but you better do it pretty quick or I'll be gone, already!

Hehe! LOL

Ben

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I know I'm not Dave, but I have to answer. Hormones aren't the issue.

In the last few years, physical intimacy with my husband has been impossible. I am able to say that Jesus gave me the victory there, and that area is not a temptation in my life. Not even a little bit. And it hasn't been an issue since 2001. That was one of the second group of strongholds the Holy Spirit and Jesus decided W/we needed to work on.

We jealously guard our Sabbath time with Jesus. We have several different studies going. We have DVD's for them, and we also ensure we have ample family relationship building time on Sabbath. Special things are reserved for Sabbath, and I believe strongly that we do perfectly enter in to Sabbath rest. We focus the entire day on Abba and Jesus, starting Friday night with something we call the "Watch of the Lord".

Church is not something we do often. Churchianity for us is a thing of the past. We go on Communion Sabbath, but mostly we home-fellowship. Jesus and Abba were in the home, family, and relationship business LONG before They were in the "church" business.

Clio

[Robert]

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In fact, my best service to God is still polluted and, I believe, only acceptable through the merits of Jesus. My hope is in Jesus, and my confidence is in His saving grace and His perfect righteousness. I guess I couldn't see myself saying that I had arrived. Instead, I find myself thinking, "He must increase, but I must decrease."

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I like....

[Robert]

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The day will come when the door is closed--when whatever decisions people have made, are final. If we continue to sin, then it is clear what decision we have made. After all, we cannot continue to sin in heaven. That is what this life is for--to provide us with the opportunity to prepare for heaven, to renounce sin and follow Jesus with all our hearts. He is able, and He is faithful, if only we will cooperate with Him.

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Subtle legalism!

[Robert]

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Clio said:

Yet, in the back of my mind, it is a constant that there is no known sin in my life... and a slightly horrified feeling that thought could even be there. And yet when I place my life under a magnifying scope, it is a true statement. And I find that my prayers have changed yet again.

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BTW...we are off the subject. You've turned the subject of the gospel into a works topic. Nico isn't happy!

[Robert]

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In all honesty, I must admit that I have not yet attained. I still fall short of the mark, more times than I would like to think about. Yet, I see progress, and I know why I fall when I do.

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And according to EGW you won't "attain" in this life. Of course that's not a reason to indulge the flesh...it’s just a simple fact!

As far as your progress...great...but don't ever look to your achievements as having any bearing on your salvation.

Yes there'll be change, but that's not good enough. The law requires perfect selflessness. It's not in the business of forgiving...it's in the business of condemning.

We are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago, period. The fruit is an indicator to which gospel one has accepted.

Turn to 1 Cor 1:30 But by His [God's] doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and justification and sanctification, and redemption, 31 that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.

Roughly 2000 years ago God put our humanity into Christ. In doing so He rewrote our history so that "in Christ" we are already justified, sanctified and redeemed. That's the gospel.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Rob,

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No, they are not MADE righteous....That is Holy living by compulsion!

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According to you, but not according to the Bible

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a RIGHTEOUS man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Who then are these RIGHTEOUS folk?

Gospel fruit people, who love God.

Norman

[Robert]

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Norman said:

1 Ti 1:9

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a

RIGHTEOUS

man

, but for the lawless and disobedient....

Who then are these RIGHTEOUS folk?

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Context:

1 Tim 1:6 Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

"The teachers of the law" taught that one must keep the law to be saved. See Acts 5:1,15....That is legalism and is an improper use of the law.

9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down [:"red"]for the just[/] but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

The word you quoted as "righteous" is properly translated in the RSV as "just"...as in, "The JUST by faith will live." To be "just" is to be justified by faith.....Look at Gal 3:11

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The just by faith will live.” 12 The law is not based on faith.....

You see as long as you are "under the law" it will demand complete obedience....That's why Paul says, "all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [why?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

So Paul is talking about the unbeliever who is still "under the law".....The believer has been "released from the law so that he can serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." [Rom 7:6]

Norm...you are confused! You are really putting Christians under the law....That's old covenant! If you don't believe me then tell me what law Paul is referring to in the following:

Gal 3:25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[Robert]

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Robert said:

BTW...we are off the subject. You've turned the subject of the gospel into a works topic. Nico isn't happy!

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Nico....Have you noticed that when one attempts to talk about the gospel the legalists always insert the subject of works? P's me off to no end....It's like they want to take the glory Christ deserves for His doing and dying and focus the spotlight on their good works....See how crafty the flesh can be?

[Robert]

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Robert said:

Norm...you are confused![been there, done that...now it's your turn]

You are really putting Christians under the law....That's old covenant! If you don't believe me then tell me what law Paul is referring to in the following:

• Gal 3:25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of
  the law
  .

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I'll give you EGW:

• -BC- 1MR

  -TI- Manuscript Releases Volume One

  -CN- 33

  -CT- The Covenants

  -PR- 02

  -PG- 130

  "The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Galatians 3:24). In this Scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of [:"red"]the moral law.[/] The law reveals sin to us, and cause us to feel our need of Christ, and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

  An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren Waggoner and Jones. By exciting that opposition, Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob said,

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The word you quoted as "righteous" is properly translated in the RSV as "just"...as in, "The JUST by faith will live." To be "just" is to be justified by faith.....Look at Gal 3:11

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Look up the word in the Greek, they mean the same thing and both translations are correct.

Here are other a few other places the word is used. Read them and you'll notice something interesting.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Mar 6:20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luk 23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous , God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous , and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

You quoted the Bible saying that there was none righteous, then how do you explain some of these text that say there were some righteous? Could it be that there is another meaning of the word righteous? There has to be otherwise both the NT and the OT say that there were some who were righteous and then none that are righteous. And Abel was so because by faith, he offered a more excellent sacrifice.

So the Bible either says two different things, "There are some righteous" or "There are none righteous" Or there is another meaning to be considered. They are found in the NT and the OT. Which is it?

Well of course there are two different meanings for the word that is translated "righteous, just or meet" There's absolute righteousness which is not in us and belongs to God, then there's a righteousness that we have because (1 John 2:29) we are God's children. We believe the Gospel and are called the just and righteous and our works reveal that we are so. That's why John says, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." 1John 3:7 We are changed by beholding the righteous, loving Jesus. We too then (by the Holy Spirit) love the just and the unjust just as our Father in heaven. That's the results of the Gospel. Make sure to note that I am not saying this adds to our salvation nor am I talking about perfection or sinlessness. By their fruit shall ye know if they are God's children or not.

it's getting late gotta run my friend,

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

Subtle legalism!

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[:"red"] "...he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still: "[/] Rev 22:11 YLT

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

You've turned the subject of the gospel into a works topic.

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[:"red"] "And [how you] look forward to and await the coming of His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead--Jesus, Who personally rescues and delivers us out of and from the wrath [bringing punishment] which is coming [upon the impenitent] and draws us to Himself [ investing us with all the privileges and rewards of the new life in Christ, the Messiah]." [/] 1 Thess 1:10 AMP

bold mine brackets theirs'

That sounds like the gospel to me

[:"red"] "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." [/] 2 Corinthians 5:10 NASB

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

The law....It's not in the business of forgiving...it's in the business of condemning.

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[:"red"] "Until faith in Christ was shown to us as the way of becoming right with God, we were guarded by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until we could put our faith in the coming Savior.

Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God. But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. " [/] Gal 3:23-25 NKJV

[Robert]

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We believe the Gospel and are called the just and righteous and our works reveal that we are so.

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And how much commandment keeping does it take to prove we've accepted the gospel? How much "falling short" of God's selfless love is acceptable? How much self-seeking are we allowed before we must relinquish heaven?

Yes?

Rob

[Robert]

Quoting a verse here and a verse there, out of context, proves nothing....

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Good morning Rob,

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And how much commandment keeping does it take to prove we've accepted the gospel? How much "falling short" of God's selfless love is acceptable? How much self-seeking are we allowed before we must relinquish heaven?

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Pro 24:16 For a just (or righteous) man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

When you love God, sin and realize what you've done you will not stay in that sin. It won't have power over you. Where as when the wicked fall, they enjoy it and don't give it up.

Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments, He did not say if you love me keep on sinning. Ceasing from sin means to not let it have dominion over you. You may at times fall or sin but God understands, 1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Knowing how merciful God is then leads us to repentance.

got to run,

have a great day.

Norman

[Clio]

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Robert said:

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We believe the Gospel and are called the just and righteous and our works reveal that we are so.

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And how much commandment keeping does it take to prove we've accepted the gospel? How much "falling short" of God's selfless love is acceptable? How much self-seeking are we allowed before we must relinquish heaven?

Yes?

Rob

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Rob,

It doesn't work that way! And if you truly understood it in your heart you would know that.

It's not about religion, it's about relationship. Just as your wife does things she knows will please you out of a heart of love, so does the Bride of Christ do things they know will please Him out of a heart of love.

WIthout the love and the heart-relationship with Jesus, all the law-keeping is pointless.

It is from a heart filled with love, gratefulness, and intimate communion with our Saviour that a desire to please Him is engendered. From the desire to please Him come the thoughts, deeds, and emotions that you deem "works". Maybe they are works, but the important part is the state of the heart. And that comes about through grace and faith.

It is not possible to continue to sin when the heart rests trustfully in Jesus. Sometimes in our weakness our faith lets go of He who strengthens us to do all things, and in His grace and love, He reaches out to us and grabs on.

It has to do with the Blood Covenant. In a sealed Blood Covenant, both parties have already yielded their life at the moment of the shedding of blood. When we fall short of the mark, because we are covenanted to the Most High through the Blood of His Son, They in Their infinite love and compassion do for us what we are incapable of doing for ourselves. They reach across that great divide, and prompt us for repentance, obedience, and give us continued assurance of Their love for us. They return our heart to a state of resting trustfully in an obedient relationship with Jesus.

We yield our lives every day in surrender, Jesus yielded His at the cross.

Clio

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Ceasing from sin means to not let it have dominion over you. You may at times fall or sin but God understands, 1 Jo 3:20

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I agree that a believer grows based on his life experiences and where he was at...but keeping the letter of the law is not enough....So that comes back to my question: When is one's works enough proof that he as accepted the gospel?

BTW, we don't "at times fall"....Paul says that all have sinned [in the past] and fall short of the glory of God."[present tense] Both EGW and the Bible define God's glory as God's self-sacrificing, agape love.

Paul doesn't state that we are keeping the whole of the law and then make an "oops"...No, Paul states that we are never reaching the loftiness of the spirit of God's law. We are missing the mark. However, he also states that just because we aren't measuring up that's no reason to enjoy the flesh and return to those things we have forsaken by grace.

Rob

[Robert]

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"

When

we fall short of the mark"

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That "when" is the problem with Gerry's, Norm's and your theology! It's not "when" we fall short...no, it's more like we are never measuring up!!!

Proof? Okay....Turn to Romans 3:21-24:

• But now a righteousness from God, apart from law [our law keeping], has been made known, to which the book of the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

  Why a righteousness apart from our law performance?

  There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned [past tense] [:"Red"] and fall short[/] of the glory of God, 24 and are being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

"And fall short" is in the present continuous tense.... Come on you guys be honest with the grammar!

What is "the glory of God"?

• Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.” 19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you...."

  Clearly "God's glory" is His "goodness" - His righteousness!

  Now Ellen White: "It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; [:"Red"]that the love which "seeketh not her own"[/] has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto." [DA 19]

Now that you understand this truth, how does that influence your current theology?

Rob

[John317]

If Christians are not "judged" by what they do or how they live, please explain to me the Adventist understanding of the Heavenly sanctuary and the pre-Advent, or Investigative, Judgment. What happened in 1844 and is continuing to happen in heaven at this very moment? How does the SDA view of these things differ from the view of other Christians? (How do the chapters in Great Controversy, Facing our Life Record and What is the Sanctuary relate to this question?) Jim

[Robert]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob, I hope your day was good.

you quoted,

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But now a righteousness from God, apart from law [our law keeping], has been made known, to which the book of the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

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Here is what Paul is saying in this verse and as I explain it you'll see our different takes on it and why we see thing differently.

But now the righteousness (this word translates to both justification and righteousness) and I believe it means justification because that's the topic

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Continuing: But now the kind of justification of God, without the law (or apart from the law) [without our law keeping to earn justification], appears being witnessed (revealed in us who don't try to be justified by law keeping but live the law because of our justification.)

v22 Even the justification that comes from God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: (Subjective) for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Subjective)

So the whole discussion is about how we are justified are we justified by the (keeping) letter of the law or are we justified?

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (continue or hold up) the law.

Romans 4 continues on discussing how Abraham was justified and it was by faith

He continues in Ch 5; Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Now he talks about Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law Trying to use it to be justified), that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The keeping of the law to be justified was not working and never can.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh,(trying to be justified by law keeping) but after the Spirit.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

He still talking about trying to be justified by law keeping

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The Israelite were still trying to justify themselves by keeping the law, not knowing that we are justified by faith.

The whole question in Romans is, how are we justified? Is it by keeping the law or by faith?

With that in mind you can clearly see that Paul says that law keeping is of no value when it comes to justification and he does say that we, being justified by faith, will establish it or hold it up as the Greek has it.

That's how it is written.

Norman