The man of Romans 7

[pnattmbtc]

The 2nd one is based on natural consequences as well.  This is easy to see.

Robert: Really?  

Yes!  Just read what I wrote after "easy to see".

Robert: Natural?  No, this group is still under law and the law will be their judge based on their works.  Since they are sinners the law will demand their eternal death.  That's the 2nd death.

You didn't respond to what I wrote after "easy to see".  For your convenience, I'll repeat it here:

 

The root of sin is the love of self, which is a principle which can only lead to death, because it separates one from God, who alone is the source of life.

Only a being who had life in himself could live for self and live; but God is agape, so there are no beings who can live for self and not die.

Do you disagree with this?  If so, why?  The answer to this is connected to the point you are making.

If the death which is a result of sin (i.e., the second death) is not a natural consequence, then the implication is that a person who sins would not suffer death, except as an arbitrary action on the part of God.  ("Arbtirary" as in "(of power or a ruling body) unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority" (not "capricious").

How we see sin is important here.  Is it something which God just doesn't care for, so He sets rules against it, or is it something which is terrible in and of itself (i.e. it brings chaos) and terrible consequences, or is it something not so bad in terms of what it does to the sinner, so God must impost something addition above and beyond the consequences of sin in order to make sure it goes away?

 

[pnattmbtc]

Q: Who is Christ addressing?

A:  "the multitudes" (Matt 5:1)

Q: Who made up the "multitudes"?

A: We have to go where Christ ends his sermon and that's found in Matt 7:28 

When Jesus finished saying these things, the people were amazed at his teaching, (why?) 29 because he did not teach like their teachers of the law. He taught like a person who had authority. 

So Christ was addressing Jews who had been taught, by their teachers of the law (Scribes and Pharisees), that heaven could only be gained by the keeping of the law.

In order to counter this teaching Christ expanded upon the law.  He did this to show the impossibility of gaining heaven by "the works of the law". 

Christ didn't teach like their teachers of the law because His teaching was founded on love, as opposed to keeping rules.  That love is the context of the verse you were commenting on, Matt 5:48, is clear by just reading it:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 

[pnattmbtc]

Robert: So Christ was addressing Jews who had been taught, by their teachers of the law (Scribes and Pharisees), that heaven could only be gained by the keeping of the law.

In order to counter this teaching Christ expanded upon the law.  He did this to show the impossibility of gaining heaven by "the works of the law". 

For example:

21 “You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ 22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! 

Murder is an outward, physical act.

Anger is a thought, not an act. So the law demands your thoughts to be perfect (sinless).

So if you want to be perfect, not only must you be selfless (no self-seeking, no self-interest, just agape), your thoughts must be perfect.

Now do you see why Christ had to delivered us from under the law?

1.Regarding the spiruality of the law, it is certainly true that Christ taught this, but the intent was that we would be obedient to the law in spirit, which couldn't be clearer.  Your understanding of Christ's teaching seems to be, don't try to be perfect, because it's impossible, which I'll prove to you by showing how inclusive the law is.  But there's not a whisper of a hint that Christ had any such thought in mind.  It's as clear as sunlight that Christ was expecting His hearers would be obedient to the law in spirit, not that this was impossible so they should even try.

2.Regarding being perfect, the context is that we should love our enemy.  To love as Christ loved is what it means to be a follower of Christ, not as a means of salvation (which isn't even an issue; who tries to get to heaven by loving as well as Christ love?) but simply by definition.

3.Indeed, Christ's purpose was to deliver us from under the law, because to be under the law is to be condemned by it.  I'll post some thoughts by E. J. Waggoner on this topic.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding "under the law", I wasn't able to copy/paste, so here's a link:

http://www.swordofelijah.org/english/13.pdf

(Waggoner argues "under the law" means "under the condemnation of the law").

[pnattmbtc]

Since in the past Galations 4:4 has been mentioned, here is a comment on that verse:

Thus we see already how it is that He came "to redeem those who were under the law." He does it in the most practical and real way. Some suppose this expression to mean that Christ freed the Jews from the necessity of offering sacrifices or from any further obligation to keep the commandments. But if only the Jews were "under the law," then Christ came to redeem only the Jews. We must acknowledge that we are, or were before we believed, "under the law.” For Christ came to redeem none but those who were under the law. To be "under the law," as we have already seen, means to be condemned to death by the law as transgressors. Christ did "not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9:13, KJV. But the law condemns none but those who are accountable to it and ought to keep it. Since Christ redeems us from condemnation of the law, it follows that He redeems us to a life of obedience to it. (The Glad Tidings)

[pnattmbtc]

Me: Where is there anything in either the immediate context or anywhere whatsoever in Christ's ministry as a whole that would suggest that Christ looked at the law in this way?  

Robert: "For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven."

This makes my point, that Christ *didn't* look at the law as you were suggesting.

Robert: The Pharisees were men, who set themselves apart for the keeping of the law, in order to gain heaven.  

To gain heaven wasn't the primary motivation for what they did.  As to what their motivation was, simply see what Christ said when he rebuked them (e.g. that they might be seen among men; that they might have the best places; they wanted to be seen and treated as important).

Robert: So outwardly they kept the rules, but the law requires not only perfect outward performance, but perfect thoughts.  

They didn't even outwardly keep the rules.  Christ rebuked them of this on several occations, for example, by mentioned their use of "Corban!", substituting the ideas of the men for the law of God.

Robert: The law demands only agape and not one ounce of self-love.  If you fail, you die.   Sin doesn't directly demand your death; the justice of the law is what demands your death.

This isn't remotely what Christ was talking about.  There is nowhere in all Christ's teaching where He said something like "Sin doesn't directly cause your death; the justice of the law is what demands your death."

Christ taught that to obtain eternal life, it is necessary to be born again.

[Robert]

“What is your biblical explanation of this text? Do I understand correctly that you don't see the words of Jesus as being for promise?

Are you waiting to become perfect as God is perfect to have the assurance of salvation?  Even if you stopped sinning today this does not save you.  You cannot add to what Christ did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity.  We are complete in Him.

 If you think what He does in you adds to what He has already accomplished then the Roman Catholic church would like you to join!

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

The best explanation to this question I know of is here:

 

But that didn't answer my questions:

1] Is that why you will die?

2] Lucifer, turned Satan (the adversary), isn't dead.  It has lived thousands of years.  Sin hasn't killed him. Why?

[Robert]

Christ didn't teach like their teachers of the law because His teaching was founded on love, as opposed to keeping rules.  That love is the context of the verse you were commenting on, Matt 5:48, is clear by just reading it:

But the justice of God's law demands your death because of your love of self. That justice is clear here:

19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. 

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Regarding the spirituality of the law, it is certainly true that Christ taught this, but the intent was that we would be obedient to the law in spirit, which couldn't be clearer.

Okay, then are you as perfect as God is perfect.  If you say "yes" you are blind and deceived.  (see Romans 3:23 & 1 John 1:8)

If you say "no" then you are correct!

Even Ellen warns: 

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [The Watchman Apirl 23, 1907]

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Regarding being perfect, the context is that we should love our enemy.

No, that's only one part.  It includes perfect thoughts as well as perfect outward actions.  Who are you kidding?

And then Christ sums it all up by stating, "You must be perfect (how perfect?) as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

Waggoner argues "under the law" means "under the condemnation of the law").

Well, Waggoner isn't Paul and Paul states it is more than just condemnation.  To be under law means to be under its dominion

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?:

 

 

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

To be "under the law," as we have already seen, means to be condemned to death by the law as transgressors. 

I thought the law was our friend?  Waggoner disagrees with you, pnattmbtc!

[pnattmbtc]

But that didn't answer my questions:

1] Is that why you will die?

2] Lucifer, turned Satan (the adversary), isn't dead.  It has lived thousands of years.  Sin hasn't killed him. Why?

The best explanation to this question I know of is here:

 

But that didn't answer my questions:

1] Is that why you will die?

2] Lucifer, turned Satan (the adversary), isn't dead.  It has lived thousands of years.  Sin hasn't killed him. Why?

 

It's right there in the quote.  I'll put the quote up again, and point it out explicitly.

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Why does one die? "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

Why hasn't sin killed Satan? "Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe."

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Christ didn't teach like their teachers of the law because His teaching was founded on love, as opposed to keeping rules.  That love is the context of the verse you were commenting on, Matt 5:48, is clear by just reading it:

Robert: But the justice of God's law demands your death because of your love of self. That justice is clear here:

19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

You must be reading something of your own thinking into this.  You think, as I understand you, that justice means if you sin you must be killed as a punishment.  If even we assumed for the sake of argument that this is what "justice" means, where is this idea in the text?  The text makes two points:

a.Breaking the law is bad.

b.Ones righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees.

How can you infer from either of these two points that justice means one should be killed as a punishment if they don't keep the law?  One could just as well take as a definition of justice that one should be left to reap the full result of their sin, and both points a. and b. would work just fine. 

[Robert]

Christ taught that to obtain eternal life, it is necessary to be born again.

You need correcting:

Matt 19:16Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 

17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 

18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 

19 'Honor your father and your mother,'and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 

20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 

 

 

 

The law of God requires perfection...that is, perfect agape love.  You are to love your neighbor as you naturally, sinfully love yourself.  Do you?  If you did your neighbor would have your wealth and you would be penniless, just like Christ. See Luke 9:58

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the spirituality of the law, it is certainly true that Christ taught this, but the intent was that we would be obedient to the law in spirit, which couldn't be clearer.

Robert: Okay, then are you as perfect as God is perfect.  If you say "yes" you are blind and deceived.  (see Romans 3:23 & 1 John 1:8)

If you say "no" then you are correct!

Even Ellen warns: 

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [The Watchman Apirl 23, 1907]

This has nothing to do with what Christ said.  Christ was speaking of how we should love, specifically, that we should love our enemies.  "Therefore be ye perfect as God is perfect" means, in context, "you should love your enemies, because this is how God loves." 

[Robert]

 

 The text makes two points:

a.Breaking the law is bad.

b.Ones righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees.

Pnattmbtc, Pnattmbtc....Come on, let's be honest. The text makes three points.  The one you left out is, "....you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

In the end, if you aren't in heaven then you have died the 2nd death, the curse of the law.  There, that wasn't so difficult....

[Robert]

Why does one die? "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

So when you die (and all men die) you do so because you chosen the service of sin????  

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding being perfect, the context is that we should love our enemy.

Robert: No, that's only one part.  It includes perfect thoughts as well as perfect outward actions.  Who are you kidding?

And then Christ sums it all up by stating, "You must be perfect (how perfect?) as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Only one part of what?  Here's the quote:

⁴³ “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’⁴⁴ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵ so that you may ^[ap]be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. ⁴⁶ For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? ⁴⁷ If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? ⁴⁸ Therefore ^[aq]you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 

What part is missing here?  I'm just repeating what Jesus said; not leaving anything out.  Just take verses 43 to 47 as they read, and that's the point I'm making.  Christ isn't talking about "how perfect"; He's talking about how one should love.  Just read the verses.  Jesus doesn't say, "Be ye as perfect as God is," but "therefore be perfect, as God is perfect," in a specific context, which is love.  Jesus is simply saying, "therefore love as God loves."  This is clear from the context, by just reading the verses.  Jesus is teaching that we should love our enemies, as opposed to just those who love us.  That's the whole point of the paragraph, and the last sentence is just one sentence of a paragraph which is making the point that we should love our enemies. 

[Robert]

 

Only one part of what?  Here's the quote:

What part is missing here?  I'm just repeating what Jesus said; not leaving anything out.  Just take verses 43 to 47 as they read....

Yes, that's leaving other verses out like verses 17 to 42....

 

[Robert]

 

Jesus is teaching that we should love our enemies, as opposed to just those who love us.  

Jesus is giving the Jews (the multitudes) what the spirit of the law demands.  

[LifeHiscost]

Are you waiting to become perfect as God is perfect to have the assurance of salvation?  Even if you stopped sinning today this does not save you.  You cannot add to what Christ did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity.  We are complete in Him.

 If you think what He does in you adds to what He has already accomplished then the Roman Catholic church would like you to join!

 

²³ O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

²⁴ Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the Lord....Psalms 31

 

⁷ Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded.....2 Chronicles

¹⁸ For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not ^[a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. ¹⁹ Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches ^[b]others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever ^[c]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

²⁰ “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.....Matthew 5

^{_{I'm satisfied that God desires us to be as much like Him as we are willing to strive for.}}

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.....John 14
 

What God has promised and done in others, He is just as willing to do for anyone who wishes to serve Him.

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…^{John 14}

^{_{God is Love!  Jesus saves!}} 

 

 

[Robert]

 

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…

 

Are you living Christ's life?  If not, are you waiting for Him to make you perfect before you can have the assurance of salvation?  If you are you aren't resting and therefore you are breaking the Sabbath under the new covenant.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

Jesus doesn't say, "Be ye as perfect as God is," but "therefore be perfect, as God is perfect," in a specific context, which is love.  

"You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Who is the "you"?  The multitudes who were Jews raised with the idea that salvation came by obeying the law.

How perfect are you to be?  "As your heavenly Father is perfect".

Simple enough.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert