pnattmbtc Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Notice the past tense: "I have been crucified with Christ". Paul is referring to the cross and the death of our corporate life (see Rom 6:6/7:4). Now, as a believer, he wants to experience what is already true of him "in Christ". "I no longer live" is metaphor meaning that he considers himself dead to sin, but alive to God. That's basically what Paul states in Romans 6:11. It's not so much a fact (dead to sin), but rather an attitude or mindset. This doesn't work grammatically. Paul didn't use the aorist, but indicative. Some translations say "I am", which makes this more clear. In English "I have been" is less clear, but the Greek is clearer -- it's not past tense. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 Robert: The sinner who persists in unbelief and hardens his heart is rejecting God. To reject God is to bring destruction. This is the 2nd death. I agree with this, and there's no need of the law for this to happen. What would the alternative be? There isn't any alternative to death, for the reasons you pointed out (e.g. "God will not force the sinner to accept His gift in Christ Jesus. That wouldn't be agape.") Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 This doesn't work grammatically. Paul didn't use the aorist, but indicative. Some translations say "I am", which makes this more clear. In English "I have been" is less clear, but the Greek is clearer -- it's not past tense. Sorry, no....Paul clearly didn't view himself without sin. See Phil 3:12 & 1 Tim 1:15. I believe you are again pushing this perfectionistic gospel, which is really no gospel at all. It's good advice, but the gospel is good news to sinners.... Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 I agree with this, and there's no need of the law for this to happen..... There you go again....Paul state there's a need. Take it or leave it, but don't claim you being Biblical if you with the latter.... Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) There you go again....Paul state there's a need. Take it or leave it, but don't claim you being Biblical if you with the latter.... To many interruptions here at the house. What I meant to say is Paul states there's a need for the law. Otherwise his "law" references are meaningless. So either accept Paul's view of the law or reject it. Edited July 21, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Sorry, no....Paul clearly didn't view himself without sin. See Phil 3:12 & 1 Tim 1:15. I believe you are again pushing this perfectionistic gospel, which is really no gospel at all. It's good advice, but the gospel is good news to sinners.... You're really jumping around here. My point here is that your argument was incorrect, which it was, for the reason you pointed out. You can't just ignore the argument, and then make a baseless accusation. Well, you can, since you did, but it's not cricket. 1.Go back to the post where I debunked your argument, and either respond to the point I made with a counter argument, or concede my point. 2.If you wish to make some argument that I'm being perfectionistic, then quote something I said, and make an argument. But surely you should be able to see the following is not OK: 1.I make a point. 2.You make an argument against that point. 3.I prove your argument is wrong. 4.You respond, not by a counter-argument or conceding my point, but by making an accusation with no evidence or argument whatsoever! Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 Why does God require agape? You really don't know? Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 You're really jumping around here. My point here is that your argument was incorrect, which it was, for the reason you pointed out. You can't just ignore the argument, and then make a baseless accusation. Well, you can, since you did, but it's not cricket. 1.Go back to the post where I debunked your argument, and either respond to the point I made with a counter argument, or concede my point. 2.If you wish to make some argument that I'm being perfectionistic, then quote something I said, and make an argument. But surely you should be able to see the following is not OK: 1.I make a point. 2.You make an argument against that point. 3.I prove your argument is wrong. 4.You respond, not by a counter-argument or conceding my point, but by making an accusation with no evidence or argument whatsoever! Look, I've seen your type before. You are pushing perfectionism, period. It's there for all to read. I don't think you even realize it. Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 In scripture, yes, "under the law" means "under the condemnation of the law" (when it's "hupo nomos"; sometimes there's a mistranslation involved). I posted Waggoner's argument; can do so again. Of course Ellen White speaking of Adam's being "under law" has nothing to do with this (unless she's quoting some Scripture which uses "hupo nomos"). Lame.... Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 You're really jumping around here. My point here is that your argument was incorrect, which it was, for the reason you pointed out. You can't just ignore the argument, and then make a baseless accusation. Well, you can, since you did, but it's not cricket. 1.Go back to the post where I debunked your argument.... Mr, you haven't debunked anything. You are pushing a subtle form of legalism. Who are you kidding? Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Why would God design the law so that a corporate death would satisfy it? What is God's purpose? What good comes of this? This is what I'm trying to get at. All I can do is give you Paul: 2 Cor 5:14 "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died" Rom 7:4 "You died to the law (it demanded your death) in the body of Christ" Edited July 21, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I agree with this, and there's no need of the law for this to happen..... Robert:There you go again....Paul state there's a need. Take it or leave it, but don't claim you being Biblical if you with the latter.... No, this the whole problem. Paul never stated there's a need. Where do you think that Paul stated there's a need? So far, you've just referred to verse which speak of "the curse of the law," but with no argument as to what's going on. You can't use your own interpretation as the definition of the term in question, which is what you are doing. Where does the Bible teach that the law demands a penalty which can be met by the corporate death of Christ? You are inferring this, and I'm asking you to back your inference with reason. I'm asking the question, why would God make a law to work in the manner you are suggesting? What would be gained by it? When you answer the question, you say good things like, self-love would result in chaos, and "the sinner who persists in unbelief and hardens his heart is rejecting God. To reject God is to bring destruction. This is the 2nd death," which is all good and makes sense, but what does the idea that there is a law which demands something which can be satisfied by the corporate death of Christ add to any of this? Let's say the things you've said are true, namely: 1.Self-love bring chaos, so that "the soul that sins must die" 2.The sinner who persists in unbelief and hardens his heart is rejecting God, which is to bring destruction, the second death. It makes perfect sense that God would do all in His power to prevent this from happening. What's the problem here? Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 763) The problem is that man needed to see God as He really is, so that the goodness of God would lead him to repentance. Man must see "the height and depth of the love of God" which he did not know. There is hope for man in a knowledge of God's love, so God sent His Son that whosoever believes in Him could have eternal life. Where does the law fit into this? It fits into this because it helps lead us to Christ, which is just what we need. Edited July 21, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Robert, why do you think it's necessary to be born again? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 Where does the law fit into this? It fits into this because it helps lead us to Christ, which is just what we need. You remind me of radio station that plays one song over and over.... The law doesn't point to Christ. The law demands perfection and death to the transgressor. Christ has fulfilled the law, legally. Therefore because of Christ we can escape from under law, but if we refuse Christ the law will hold us in prison until the judgment. In the judgment the unbeliever must stand before the law in his own righteousness, which is filthy rags. Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 You do know this is in the Lord's prayer, right? "Deliver us from evil ..." Christ taught us to pray this prayer. Surely Christ was presenting a form of perfectionism or legalism, was He? More sarcasm.... I thought you were above your nature? Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Why would God design the law so that a corporate death would satisfy it? What is God's purpose? What good comes of this? This is what I'm trying to get at. Rom 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience (transgression) so that He may show mercy to all." Rom 5:20 "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase" Gal 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions (see Rom 5:20/11:32) until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Edited July 21, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Gal 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions (see Rom 5:20/11:32) until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. The law was given, not to make matters better for the fallen race, but to make sin, transgression. The law placed the human race "in prison" waiting for the judgement. "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law." Christ has saved the human race in Himself. He has answered the demands of the law. We either stay "under law" and die or we can accept our death "in Christ" and therefore stand justified by faith. In the judgment if we are under law the law will demand our death. In the judgment if we have accepted our position "in Christ" the law will be satisfied with us. Edited July 21, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Where does the law fit into this? It fits into this because it helps lead us to Christ, which is just what we need. Robert: You remind me of radio station that plays one song over and over.... The law doesn't point to Christ. The law demands perfection and death to the transgressor. Christ has fulfilled the law, legally. Therefore because of Christ we can escape from under law, but if we refuse Christ the law will hold us in prison until the judgment. In the judgment the unbeliever must stand before the law in his own righteousness, which is filthy rags. I didn't say "point to" but "lead us to Christ." This is Galatians 3, vs 24 I think. Something from Waggoner, "The Glad Tidings" which explains the idea: Now since Christ, in whom is peace ("for He is our peace"), is seeking the weary and heavy-laden and calling them to Himself, and since every man has longings that nothing else in the world can satisfy, it is clear that if the man is awakened by the law to keener consciousness of his condition, and the law continues goading him, giving him no rest, shutting up every other way of escape, the man must at last find the door of safety, for it stands open. Christ is the city of refuge to which everyone pursued by the avenger of blood may flee, sure of finding a welcome. In Christ alone will the sinner find release from the lash of the law, for in Christ the righteousness of the law is fulfilled, and He fulfills it in us. Romans 8:4. The law will allow nobody to be saved unless he has "the righteousness which is of God by faith," the faith of Jesus Christ. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Why would God design the law so that a corporate death would satisfy it? What is God's purpose? What good comes of this? This is what I'm trying to get at. Robert: Rom 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience (transgression) so that He may show mercy to all." Rom 5:20 "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase" Gal 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions (see Rom 5:20/11:32) until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. There are all texts I would quote to support my position. I don't see what they have to do with yours. 1.From Romans, the point is made that the law was given to convict the sinner of transgression, that he might find righteousness in Christ. This is what Paul is getting at that the law was given to increase transgression. When he talks about shutting the sinner up in disobedience, it's the same idea as in Galatians; convict the sinner of his need for Christ by making clear transgression. 2.Galatians 3 is the same idea. I presented the quote from Waggoner which discusses this idea. Law -> Used by the Holy Spirit to convict of sin -> Leads the sinner to Christ, in whom he finds righteousness Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Robert, why do you think it is necessary to be born again? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Robert: The law was given, not to make matters better for the fallen race, but to make sin, transgression. The law placed the human race "in prison" waiting for the judgement. "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law." Christ has saved the human race in Himself. He has answered the demands of the law. We either stay "under law" and die or we can accept our death "in Christ" and therefore stand justified by faith. In the judgment if we are under law the law will demand our death. In the judgment if we have accepted our position "in Christ" the law will be satisfied with us. If the law were not given, would that mean that transgression would not exist, and Christ would not have had to die? If not, why not? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 If the law were not given.... Speculation. EGW warns of such.... Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 I didn't say "point to" but "lead us to Christ." Many are not lead.....They remain under law and under law means death, the 2nd death..... Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 Under Law. The word under means “to be ruled, or dominated, by.” So to be “under law” means to be ruled or dominated by the law. It means that our standing before God is based on our performance in terms of the law, the revelation of God’s express will. Being “under law” means justifying ourselves in God’s presence by our behavior regarding the law. The law always comes to us and says, “Do this, don’t do that, and you shall live” [see Romans 10:5]. Failure to keep the law results in the curse: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law” [Galatians 3:10]. In the Garden of Eden, before sin, Adam and Eve were “under law.” God created them with a perfect, sinless nature, and placed them under the law. “And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die’ ” [Genesis 2:16-17]. When Adam and Eve disobeyed this command, they came under the condemnation of death; they forfeited their lives. This death sentence has passed to all humanity because all mankind was in Adam when he sinned and, therefore, was implicated in his sin [see Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:22]. Being “under law” also means being under the curse or condemnation of the law. This, too, is our plight; we are “by nature deserving of wrath” [Ephesians 2:3]. No matter how good an opinion we may have of ourselves, the fact is that we were born into a lost race. As Paul says, “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin” [Romans 3:19-20]. Paul is telling us in these verses that not only do we stand condemned under the law, but also that we cannot possibly meet its demands. To save us from this hopeless situation, “But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship” [Galatians 4:4-5]. In redeeming us from being “under law,” Christ has put us “under grace.” This is the position of all who have received Him by faith [see Romans 6:14]. Jack Sequeira Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Many are not lead.....They remain under law and under law means death, the 2nd death..... 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me....John 5 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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