The man of Romans 7

[Robert]

I think you're starting from a false premise here.  The problem is not the law, but sin.  

 

But the law condemns all sin.  Christ came to deliver us, not from sin, but from the law.  

He didn't deliver us by doing away with the law, but taking our corporate humanity into Himself, and thus when He died, we died in Him.  Hence the justice of the law is satisfied and we can stand before God, in Christ, justified by faith.

If Christ came to do away with sin (as in, believers are sinless) then there's a big problem because we are still missing the mark.

[Robert]

It looks like your considering only thinking one is without sin as the only way of practicing known sin?  Was this your intent? 

I don't follow....

[Robert]

Christ came to deliver us, not from sin, but from the law.  

Let me rephrase this:

Christ primarily came to deliver us, not from sin, but from the law.  

 

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law 

Christ as the son of man, was born of woman and thereby became the last Adam.  By assuming us he came under the jurisdiction of the law.  The law demanded three things of Christ:

1] Perfect obedience

2] Perfect justice

3] Holy flesh

In the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ He fulfilled God's law.  Hence He has legally redeemed (saved) the human race from "under the law".  Not because the law, in and of itself, is bad, but because we are sinners under the law.  To be a sinner under law brings judgment (death).

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Christ primarily came to deliver us, not from sin, but from the law.  

In a secondary sense Christ, through the Spirit, came so that the one delivered from under law could experience deliverance from sin.  The problem is, as far as I know, no one has lived Christ's life. This doesn't deny that we become more like Christ.....

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Ellen White on the law:

"The law of God, spoken in awful grandeur from Sinai, is the utterance of condemnation to the sinner. It is the province of the law to condemn, but there is in it no power to pardon or to redeem. It is ordained to life; those who walk in harmony with its precepts will receive the reward of obedience. But it (the law) brings bondage and death to those who remain under its condemnation." [R&H April 22, 1902]

What Is the Justice of God? The transgression of God's law in a single instance, in the smallest particular, is sin. And the non execution of the penalty of that sin would be a crime in the divine administration. God is a judge, the avenger of justice, which is the habitation and foundation of His throne. He cannot dispense with His law, He cannot do away with its smallest item in order to meet and pardon sin. The rectitude and justice and moral excellence of the law must be maintained and vindicated before the heavenly universe and the worlds sinless. [Ellen White, SDA Bible Commentary, Volume 7, page 951]

 

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

I'm not following this.  Paul, before being converted, thought he had the righteousness the law required.  The Holy Spirit convicted him of sin, by showing him that he wasn't keeping the law, in particular, the 10th commandment, which is one which cannot be kept  externally.  Paul saw his need for Christ and was converted.  The law played a role in Paul's conversion by making clear to him his need for Christ.

Robert:Yes, so from this point of view the law aided his conversion, but if had rejected Christ then he would have remained under condemnation.

 

  Quote

 Paul asks the question if the law was responsible for his death.  He says, "No way!  It was sin!".  So the problem is sin, which is disobedience, and it makes all the sense in the world that disobedience is a problem, but none at all that something which is "holy, just and good" should be the problem.                                                                                     

Robert:Sin is the problem and the law condemns sin. To remain under law is to remain under the curse.  

We're in agreement here, as far as the words are concerned.  I agree that to remain under the law is to remain under the curse of the law, but the reason is because "under the law" means "under the condemnation of the law", which would, of course, bring the curse of the law, which is sin/death, a natural consequence of choosing a life separated from God.

I was thinking in terms of "condemnation of the law" and your comment that the law is not our friend, according to Waggoner, because he said this.  The disconnect here is that from Waggoner's point of view, the condemnation of the law is a *description* of the condition of the sinner, not a *result* of an action of the law.  And, again, remember that the law cannot literally do anything; to say the law condemns is a metaphor.  God, as a sentient being, can condemn, but the law can only describe things, such as required actions or penalties.  As such, the law speaks for God.

So this comes back to the question, why does God require what He does, and why does He specify the penalties that He does.  

[pnattmbtc]

IF the law is the friend of the unconverted then does the unconverted need Christ?

The law is the friend of all, whether converted or unconverted, because it leads one to Christ.  Everyone, whether converted or unconverted, needs Christ.

He wouldn't be happy in heaven.  He needs to be born again. 

Robert:But if he refuses doesn't he remain under law?  

Refuses what?  Christ?  If he refuses Christ, he remains under the condemnation of the law, because only Christ has the righteousness which the law requires. 

[pnattmbtc]

I think you're starting from a false premise here.  The problem is not the law, but sin.  

 

Robert:But the law condemns all sin.  Christ came to deliver us, not from sin, but from the law.  

No!  Jesus came to deliver us from sin, which is what His very name means (prophecy in Matthew; what would Jesus do?)  Christ came to write the law in our hearts and mind.  The law is holy, just and good.  It makes no sense to speak of delivering us from something holy, just and good.  This is what Paul said in Romans 7:13.  Is that which is holy, just and good the cause of my death?  May it never be!  Sin is.  That's what Paul says, an it's common sense.

Law = good.  Sin = evil.  Christ came to deliver us not from good, but from evil.

 

Robert: He didn't deliver us by doing away with the law, but taking our corporate humanity into Himself, and thus when He died, we died in Him.  Hence the justice of the law is satisfied and we can stand before God, in Christ, justified by faith.

This could only make sense if God designed a law in such a way that it could be satisfied by a corporate death.  Why would God do such a thing?  What would the purpose of such a law be?  Why bother?

Robert: If Christ came to do away with sin (as in, believers are sinless) then there's a big problem because we are still missing the mark.

This is a circular argument.  There are so many texts which speak to our being delivered from sin, I couldn't list all of them.  As far as I can tell, your entire thought is based on a couple of verses in Romans, namely Romans 3:23 and Romans 7, assuming Paul is speaking of himself as failing, even though converted.  What do you do with the rest of the Bible?

Please notice I'm discussing this under the heading of being delivered from sin.  I think that's a better description than "believers are sinless", which is, for one thing, vague.  Being delivered from sin is also vague, but I think not as vague, and, to make it less so, I'll define it as being under the power of sin, in the sense of, given some specific sin - any specific sin (not something vague like "selfishness" or "self-righteousness", but some specific act or thought of which the Holy Spirit is able to convict us), we must remain constrained to continue doing the thing of which the Holy Spirit is convicting us that we should not be doing it.

To name just a few things:

1.The New Covenant is to write the law on the heart and mind.

2.Jesus taught "you must be born again."

3.John's teachings in 1 John, e.g.

⁴ Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. ⁵ You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. ⁶ No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. ⁷ Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.⁸ Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. ⁹ Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. ¹⁰ The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.

I'll stop here, but many, many more could be mentioned.  The only way you can have a consistent belief system is to reinterpret all of these statements which speak of sin to be dealing with specifically and only the sin of believing in works-righteousness.

Here is a statement from the Spirit of Prophecy:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. 

If you want to address just one of these points, please address the question of being born again.  Why does Christ say we must be born again?  I don't see how this makes sense with your belief system.  What Christ should have said, if your belief system were correct, is "You must believe that my death corporately satisfies the requirements of the law, if you wish to avoid the curse of the law." 

[pnattmbtc]

It looks like your considering only thinking one is without sin as the only way of practicing known sin?  Was this your intent? 

Robert: I don't follow...

You said if we continue to practice a known sin, that would be a problem, and you said you were defining the known sin as thinking one is without sin.  I'm asking if continue to practice some other known sin would be a problem.  For example, let's say a person understands the corporate concept like you do, but is convicted that some sin, X, is wrong, and continues to do X, in a rebellious fashion, but because of weakness but because of specific intent, would such a person go to heaven if he died in such a condition? 

[pnattmbtc]

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law 

Christ as the son of man, was born of woman and thereby became the last Adam.  By assuming us he came under the jurisdiction of the law.  The law demanded three things of Christ:

1] Perfect obedience

2] Perfect justice

3] Holy flesh

In the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ He fulfilled God's law.  Hence He has legally redeemed (saved) the human race from "under the law".  Not because the law, in and of itself, is bad, but because we are sinners under the law.  To be a sinner under law brings judgment (death).

1.Why would God demand perfect obedience?

2.Why would God demand what you call "perfect justice"

What does this mean anyway?  You call it "God abandonment".  Do you mean that the law demands that God abandon the sinner, so that God is like, "Man, I wish I didn't have to abandon you, but this confounded law requires that I do this.  I wish I had never created this stupid thing!  I want to stay with you, but it won't let me.  I'm calling Mom.  MOM!!!

This doesn't make sense.  How could God be constrained to do something against His will by a thing He Himself created?  The only way God could abandon anyone is if this was His will, and there are only two possibilities here.  One possibility is that it is God's desire to abandon the sinner, for whatever private reasons He has, so He does so.  Everything we know about God's will revealed in Christ argues against this possibility.

The other possibility is that God abandons the sinner out of love, in the best interest of the sinner, and this is exactly what inspiration teaches us:

God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. (GC 541)

This passage helped me immensely in understanding these issues.  The last sentence points out that God is acting in the best interest of the sinner.  God abandons the sinner because that's the choice of the sinner, in addition to being in their own best interest:

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 543)

3.Why would God demand holy flesh?  That seems silly; we don't have any control over the flesh we have. 

[pnattmbtc]

Christ primarily came to deliver us, not from sin, but from the law.  

Robert: In a secondary sense Christ, through the Spirit, came so that the one delivered from under law could experience deliverance from sin.  The problem is, as far as I know, no one has lived Christ's life. This doesn't deny that we become more like Christ.....

I know what you mean is that nobody has lived a life as well as Christ did, which is natural, given that Christ was the express image of God, but any Christian lives the life of Christ.  For example, consider Galatians 2:20.  That one immediately comes to mind.  There are many others. 

[Robert]

We're in agreement here, as far as the words are concerned.  I agree that to remain under the law is to remain under the curse of the law, but the reason is because "under the law" means "under the condemnation of the law", which would, of course, bring the curse of the law, which is sin/death, a natural consequence of choosing a life separated from God.

This is getting confusing....

Let me get this straight - in your theological view being "under law" is the same as being "under the condemnation of the law"?

Well, if that's your position I can' t agree.  

Here's Ellen White: "God placed man (i.e., mankind) under law, as an indispensable condition of his very existence." [PP 49]

The context of my reference reveals this she is writing of Adam (which can mean "mankind" also) before the fall, yet she states "God placed man under law".  If "under law" means "under condemnation" then Adam was under condemnation before he sinned.  That makes no sense.

So, under the law doesn't just mean under condemnation.

 Also Christ was born under the law, yet He never sinned.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Refuses what?  Christ?  If he refuses Christ, he remains under the condemnation of the law, because only Christ has the righteousness which the law requires. 

Refuses Christ's righteousness...yes....

[Robert]

 

No!  Jesus came to deliver us from sin, which is what His very name means (prophecy in Matthew; what would Jesus do?)  Christ came to write the law in our hearts and mind.  The law is holy, just and good.  It makes no sense to speak of delivering us from something holy, just and good.  This is what Paul said in Romans 7:13.  Is that which is holy, just and good the cause of my death?  May it never be!  Sin is.  That's what Paul says, an it's common sense.

Law = good.  Sin = evil.  Christ came to deliver us not from good, but from evil.

Then, Pnattmbtc, you are presenting a form of perfectionism, which is really legalism. 

As I stated before, the primary reason Christ came to this fallen world was to deliver sinners from under the law that justly condemned them.  To be a sinner and under law means death, the 2nd death.  I'm not getting through....

When you make Christ's primary mission one of salvation from sin instead of Savior from the curse of the law you will always end up with "another gospel".  Just saying....

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

This could only make sense if God designed a law in such a way that it could be satisfied by a corporate death.  Why would God do such a thing?  What would the purpose of such a law be?  Why bother?

You do understand that you are slamming the gospel?  I would be very careful with your words....

Jesus assumed our life that we all share with Adam after the fall.  Since this life belongs to all of us, because we all share Adam's life, and because "our old life" died with Christ, then the law is satisfied. As far as the law is concerned "we died to the law in the body of Christ".  The justice of the law has been legally & morally obtained in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

1.Why would God demand perfect obedience?

2.Why would God demand what you call "perfect justice"

3.Why would God demand holy flesh?  That seems silly; we don't have any control over the flesh we have. 

1]  His law, which He established, can't allow sin. Why? Because one ounce of self-love will ruin His creation.

2]  The law demands your death so you will no longer be a threat to His perfect, created universe.  If God allows you live then chaos & lawlessness will be the result. (I'm using you as an example, so don' think I just singling you out). 

3] Holy flesh is a term used by EGW.  "The law of sin" that dwells in our humanity can't be taken to heaven.  Our old life, indwelt with our bent-to-self, must remain in the grave.  In its place God has prepared for us a "new creation" and that creature is currently "in Christ Jesus". 

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

What does this mean anyway?  You call it "God abandonment".  Do you mean that the law demands that God abandon the sinner, so that God is like, "Man, I wish I didn't have to abandon you, but this confounded law requires that I do this.  I wish I had never created this stupid thing!  I want to stay with you, but it won't let me.  I'm calling Mom.  MOM!!!

Now it seems that you are being sarcastic? 

God's law is transcript of His character.  In a nutshell God's law requires "agape".  Anything outside agape is sin.  Keep in mind two things:

1] God is agape and

2] Agape is the fulfillment of the law

God, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law, i.e., the law is a transcript of His character.

God will not force the sinner to accept His gift in Christ Jesus.  That wouldn't be agape.  The sinner who persists in unbelief and hardens his heart is rejecting God.  To reject God is to bring destruction.  This is the 2nd death.  The justice of the law requires that God abandons the sinner.  If God forces Himself on the harden sinner then God isn't operating under agape and becomes a sinner Himself.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

But the law condemns all sin.  Christ came to deliver us, not from sin, but from the law.  

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son..... , condemned sin in the flesh:...Romans 8:
 

15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.....John 14

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

.... but any Christian lives the life of Christ.  For example, consider Galatians 2:20.  That one immediately comes to mind.  There are many others. 

20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 

Notice the past tense:  "I have been crucified with Christ".  Paul is referring to the cross and the death of our corporate life (see Rom 6:6/7:4).  Now, as a believer, he wants to experience what is already true of him "in Christ".  "I no longer live" is metaphor meaning that he considers himself dead to sin, but alive to God.  That's basically what Paul states in Romans 6:11.  It's not so much a fact (dead to sin), but rather an attitude or mindset. 

[pnattmbtc]

Refuses what?  Christ?  If he refuses Christ, he remains under the condemnation of the law, because only Christ has the righteousness which the law requires. 

Robert: Refuses Christ's righteousness...yes....

One doesn't refuse Christ's righteousness, but Christ. (e.g. I stand at the door and knock)

Edited July 20, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

This is getting confusing....

Let me get this straight - in your theological view being "under law" is the same as being "under the condemnation of the law"?

Well, if that's your position I can' t agree.  

Here's Ellen White: "God placed man (i.e., mankind) under law, as an indispensable condition of his very existence." [PP 49]

The context of my reference reveals this she is writing of Adam (which can mean "mankind" also) before the fall, yet she states "God placed man under law".  If "under law" means "under condemnation" then Adam was under condemnation before he sinned.  That makes no sense.

So, under the law doesn't just mean under condemnation.

 Also Christ was born under the law, yet He never sinned.

In scripture, yes, "under the law" means "under the condemnation of the law" (when it's "hupo nomos"; sometimes there's a mistranslation involved).  I posted Waggoner's argument; can do so again.

Of course Ellen White speaking of Adam's being "under law" has nothing to do with this (unless she's quoting some Scripture which uses "hupo nomos").

Edited July 20, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Then, Pnattmbtc, you are presenting a form of perfectionism, which is really legalism. 

As I stated before, the primary reason Christ came to this fallen world was to deliver sinners from under the law that justly condemned them.  To be a sinner and under law means death, the 2nd death.  I'm not getting through....

When you make Christ's primary mission one of salvation from sin instead of Savior from the curse of the law you will always end up with "another gospel".  Just saying....

Christ's primary mission was the revelation of the Father:

 Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

Actually this was the entire purpose of Christ's mission.  I don't see how this fits with your belief system.  It does with mine.

The primarily problem of the universe, including man, is that God's character has been misrepresented.  To solve this problem, God sent His Son, who revealed the true character of God, as well as the character of the enemy.  By so doing God secured the entire universe, winning the Great Controversy.  As a subset of this, God also effected the salvation of man:

Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762) 

We may be brought back to God by beholding His character as revealed in Christ. 

[pnattmbtc]

This could only make sense if God designed a law in such a way that it could be satisfied by a corporate death.  Why would God do such a thing?  What would the purpose of such a law be?  Why bother?

RobertYou do understand that you are slamming the gospel?  I would be very careful with your words....

Not at all!  Scripture enjoins us to be able to give a reason for what we believe.  I'm inviting you do to so.

Jesus assumed our life that we all share with Adam after the fall.  Since this life belongs to all of us, because we all share Adam's life, and because "our old life" died with Christ, then the law is satisfied. As far as the law is concerned "we died to the law in the body of Christ".  The justice of the law has been legally & morally obtained in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.

No, no, no!  You're just repeating what you've said before.  I'm asking you *why*.  This is crucially important.

You are asserting a certain thing, that doing X will satisfy the law.  I'm asking why did God create the law in such a way that X will satisfy it.  This absolutely needs to be understood.

Why would God design the law so that a corporate death would satisfy it?  What is God's purpose?  What good comes of this?  This is what I'm trying to get at.

[pnattmbtc]

No!  Jesus came to deliver us from sin, which is what His very name means (prophecy in Matthew; what would Jesus do?)  Christ came to write the law in our hearts and mind.  The law is holy, just and good.  It makes no sense to speak of delivering us from something holy, just and good.  This is what Paul said in Romans 7:13.  Is that which is holy, just and good the cause of my death?  May it never be!  Sin is.  That's what Paul says, an it's common sense.

Law = good.  Sin = evil.  Christ came to deliver us not from good, but from evil.

Robert: Then, Pnattmbtc, you are presenting a form of perfectionism, which is really legalism. 

You do know this is in the Lord's prayer, right? "Deliver us from evil ..."  Christ taught us to pray this prayer.  Surely Christ was presenting a form of perfectionism or legalism, was He? 

[pnattmbtc]

What does this mean anyway?  You call it "God abandonment".  Do you mean that the law demands that God abandon the sinner, so that God is like, "Man, I wish I didn't have to abandon you, but this confounded law requires that I do this.  I wish I had never created this stupid thing!  I want to stay with you, but it won't let me.  I'm calling Mom.  MOM!!!

Robert: Now it seems that you are being sarcastic? 

I was, but not in a mean-spirited way.  I was trying to be humorous, but if you didn't like it, I'd gladly refrain (also I apologize, if appropriate)

 

God's law is transcript of His character.  In a nutshell God's law requires "agape".  Anything outside agape is sin.  Keep in mind two things:

1] God is agape and

2] Agape is the fulfillment of the law

God, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law, i.e., the law is a transcript of His character.

God will not force the sinner to accept His gift in Christ Jesus.  That wouldn't be agape.  The sinner who persists in unbelief and hardens his heart is rejecting God.  To reject God is to bring destruction.  This is the 2nd death.  The justice of the law requires that God abandons the sinner.  If God forces Himself on the harden sinner then God isn't operating under agape and becomes a sinner Himself.

Why does God require agape?