Robert Posted July 24, 2015 Author Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) This begs the question as to what it means to be justified by faith. It means to accept Christ's justification of our corporate humanity in His doing & dying. Justification is received through faith for those who have reached the age of accountability. Edited July 24, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 It means to accept Christ's justification of our corporate humanity in His doing & dying. What does this involve? The way you have written this, it appears as if it would involving believing certain facts, such as Christ's corporate death satisfying certain legal requirements. Is there a need for something like contrition or repentance? How does being born again tie in? Is accepting Christ's justification for our corporate humanity something someone like Luther could have done? If the Holy Spirit convicts one of sin, and one responds, "God be merciful to me a sinner!" (as Christ described in the parable about the publican and the Pharisee) such that the one walks away justified, as Jesus described, is such a one being justified by faith? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 What does this involve? The way you have written this, it appears as if it would involving believing certain facts, such as Christ's corporate death satisfying certain legal requirements. Is there a need for something like contrition or repentance? How does being born again tie in? Is accepting Christ's justification for our corporate humanity something someone like Luther could have done? If the Holy Spirit convicts one of sin, and one responds, "God be merciful to me a sinner!" (as Christ described in the parable about the publican and the Pharisee) such that the one walks away justified, as Jesus described, is such a one being justified by faith? Nothing you do, or Christ does in you, adds to what He did in our humanity 2000 years ago. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Nothing you do, or Christ does in you, adds to what He did in our humanity 2000 years ago. But not everybody will go to heaven. Why not? Please answer the questions I asked. Repeating here for your convenience. If you're going to get upset when others present "another gospel" you should be clear as to what you're talking about. These are fundamental questions I'm asking, that anyone who discusses the gospel should be able to answer. What does this (justification by faith) involve? The way you have written this, it appears as if it would involving believing certain facts, such as Christ's corporate death satisfying certain legal requirements. Is there a need for something like contrition or repentance? How does being born again tie in? Is accepting Christ's justification for our corporate humanity something someone like Luther could have done? If the Holy Spirit convicts one of sin, and one responds, "God be merciful to me a sinner!" (as Christ described in the parable about the publican and the Pharisee) such that the one walks away justified, as Jesus described, is such a one being justified by faith? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 30, 2015 Author Posted July 30, 2015 But not everybody will go to heaven. Why not? Please answer the questions I asked. Repeating here for your convenience. If you're going to get upset when others present "another gospel" you should be clear as to what you're talking about. These are fundamental questions I'm asking, that anyone who discusses the gospel should be able to answer. What does this (justification by faith) involve? The way you have written this, it appears as if it would involving believing certain facts, such as Christ's corporate death satisfying certain legal requirements. Is there a need for something like contrition or repentance? How does being born again tie in? Is accepting Christ's justification for our corporate humanity something someone like Luther could have done? If the Holy Spirit convicts one of sin, and one responds, "God be merciful to me a sinner!" (as Christ described in the parable about the publican and the Pharisee) such that the one walks away justified, as Jesus described, is such a one being justified by faith? Nothing you do, or Christ does in you, adds to what He did in our humanity 2000 years ago Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 What you're saying is non-responsive, and a non-point. How could anything we do add to what Christ did? That doesn't even make sense. What would even be an example of such a thing? The point I've been addressing is that our conversion is not dependent upon our believing certain facts, which appears to be what you are presenting. Consider the case of the publican and the pharisee. One paraded himself, happy he wasn't like others, especially the poor publican, while the public didn't so much as look up to heaven, but asked for mercy: "God, be merciful to me a sinner". Jesus said the publican walked away justified. So hear we have the simplest of explanations of the Gospel, justification by faith, by the Master Himself, Jesus Christ. JoeMo 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) What you're saying is non-responsive, and a non-point. How could anything we do add to what Christ did? That doesn't even make sense. What Christ does in you, i.e., good works, does not add to what He did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity. Hence it is not I plus Christ, but not I, but Christ. Edited July 31, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 Consider the case of the publican and the pharisee. One paraded himself, happy he wasn't like others, especially the poor publican, while the publican didn't so much as look up to heaven, but asked for mercy: "God, be merciful to me a sinner". Jesus said the publican walked away justified. So hear we have the simplest of explanations of the Gospel, justification by faith, by the Master Himself, Jesus Christ. No, this doesn't "explain" the gospel, it explains justification by faith. The gospel is how Christ justified the human race in Himself. By assuming us Christ rewrote our history and justified all unto life. Justification by faith is accepting the gospel by faith. Quote
Robert Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 Consider the case of the publican and the pharisee. One paraded himself, happy he wasn't like others, especially the poor publican, while the public didn't so much as look up to heaven, but asked for mercy: "God, be merciful to me a sinner". Jesus said the publican walked away justified. The publican saw himself a sinner. The story doesn't tell us how, but only he recognized himself as a sinner. Because of this he saw his need of Christ. Hence he went home justified, by faith of course. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 The publican saw himself a sinner. The story doesn't tell us how, but only he recognized himself as a sinner. Because of this he saw his need of Christ. Hence he went home justified, by faith of course. But without knowing anything about the gospel, correct? (I'm inferring this from your previous two comments). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 No, this doesn't "explain" the gospel, it explains justification by faith. The gospel is how Christ justified the human race in Himself. By assuming us Christ rewrote our history and justified all unto life. Justification by faith is accepting the gospel by faith. You're contradicting yourself, based on your other comment about the publican. You wrote the publican was justified by faith, but the publican knew nothing of the gospel, as you have defined it here. So the publican could not have been justified by accepting the gospel by faith. Also, I think you are incorrect in your assertion that justification by faith is accepting the gospel by faith; justification by faith is accepting Christ by faith. This is a vital distinction, dealing with how we relate to a Being (Jesus Christ), as opposed to a concept (Christ rewriting our history). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) But without knowing anything about the gospel, correct? (I'm inferring this from your previous two comments). The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Your question is meaningless because the context, of the above, does give us that info.. Edited July 31, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 Your question is meaningless because the context, of the above, doesn't give us that info.. Correction Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 No, Robert, your comment is out of place, because I'm discussing the publican, not Jesus' audience. The publican in the story asked for mercy, and received it. He want away justified. You said this wasn't the gospel, so the publican could not have accepted the gospel by faith, as you put it. However, there is no question that the publican went away justified, because Jesus said so. So the publican must have been justified by faith. Hence the publican was justified by faith by accepting *Christ* (not the gospel). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Hence the publican was justified by faith by accepting *Christ* (not the gospel). Christ is the gospel. After all the gospel is the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ. Specifically, it is our birth, life, death and resurrection in Him. Edited July 31, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 Adam’s sin deprived humanity of life and brought all mankind under the sentence of eternal death, i.e., the second death. The first or sleep death became a necessity because of the plan of redemption, while the second death is the wages of sin [Romans 6:23]. Christ’s obedience (doing and dying) did two things for all mankind: It saved all humanity from the condemnation of the second or eternal death; and It brought the verdict of justification to eternal life upon all men [2 Tim. 1:8-10]. Note: Since Christians die the first death, the gospel obviously only redeems men and women from the second death [Rev. 20:6]. On the cross Christ “tasted” and “abolished” only the second death, “the curse of the law” [Heb. 2:9; 2 Tim. 1:10; Gal. 3:13]. Salvation from the second death and the verdict of justification to eternal life is God’s supreme gift to all mankind in Christ [John 3:16; 1 John 5:11]. This constitutes the unconditional good news of the gospel. But like any gift, it has to be received to be enjoyed [Romans 5:17]. Those who willfully, persistently, and ultimately reject God’s gift of salvation in Christ (the gospel), are deliberately choosing the second death instead of eternal life [Deut. 30:19]. Therefore, in the judgment, they can only blame themselves when they face the second death. Hence, unbelief (willfully rejecting the truth as it is in Christ) is the unpardonable sin [Hebrews 2:1-3; 10:26-29]. Every baby is born subjectively in Adam (although objectively in Christ) and, therefore, under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death [Romans 3:9-20]. To continue to live under this reign is to end up with eternal death. Christ ushered in the reign of grace, righteousness, and eternal life. To receive this gift of grace by faith means we are now baptized subjectively into Christ and have passed from death to life [1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 5:27; John 5:24]. If we continue to live by faith under this reign of grace, it will end up with eternal life. Adam and Christ represent two opposite camps, sin and righteousness or death and life respectively. Therefore, you cannot choose to remain in Adam (to enjoy sin) and at the same time accept by faith your position in Christ (to enjoy eternal life). To obey the gospel is to receive Christ, the author of righteousness and life. This involves saying good-bye to Adam, the author of sin and death [Romans 6:16-22]. Your eternal destiny depends on which humanity you have chosen to belong.... [JS] Quote
Samie Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Every baby is born subjectively in Adam (although objectively in Christ) and, therefore, under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death [Romans 3:9-20]. To continue to live under this reign is to end up with eternal death. Christ ushered in the reign of grace, righteousness, and eternal life. To receive this gift of grace by faith means we are now baptized subjectively into Christ and have passed from death to life [1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 5:27; John 5:24]. If we continue to live by faith under this reign of grace, it will end up with eternal life. Hi Robert; I am trying to reconcile the above paragraph with being written in the Book of Life or not because as spelled out in Revelation, anyone not found written in the Book of Life will end up with eternal death (Rev 20:15); all written there end up with eternal life (Rev 21:27). Here is how I understood your statements: 1. Sentences #1 & #2 in the quote above seem to tell me that every baby is born NOT WRITTEN in the Book of Life. 2. Sentences #3 & #4 seem to tell me that when one grows up into the age of accountability and "receives" the gift of grace he gets written in the Book of Life. 3. Sentence #5 seems to tell me that after one gets written in the Book of Life and continues to live by faith, his name remains in the Book of Life; otherwise his name will be deleted from it. Did I understand your statements correctly, brother? If not, what is the correct understanding? Thank you in advance for your response. Quote
Robert Posted August 1, 2015 Author Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Hi Robert; I am trying to reconcile the above paragraph with being written in the Book of Life or not because as spelled out in Revelation, anyone not found written in the Book of Life will end up with eternal death (Rev 20:15); all written there end up with eternal life (Rev 21:27). Here is how I understood your statements: 1. Sentences #1 & #2 in the quote above seem to tell me that every baby is born NOT WRITTEN in the Book of Life. 2. Sentences #3 & #4 seem to tell me that when one grows up into the age of accountability and "receives" the gift of grace he gets written in the Book of Life. 3. Sentence #5 seems to tell me that after one gets written in the Book of Life and continues to live by faith, his name remains in the Book of Life; otherwise his name will be deleted from it. Did I understand your statements correctly, brother? If not, what is the correct understanding? Thank you in advance for your response. Do you see [JS]? That's quoted material from Jack Seqeuira. I've not asked him his position on if infants are born justified before God in Christ. I don't know his position. Let's go to his favorite book and chapter Romans chapter 5: Edited August 1, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 1, 2015 Author Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Jack: Every baby is born subjectively in Adam (although objectively in Christ) and, therefore, under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. This isn't a universal statement. Only those who "receive" Christ will reign in life. 18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation (not guilt) to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Christ's) there resulted justification of life to all men. This is a universal statement. All men subjectively stand condemned because they share Adam's fallen life. Yet, simultaneously, "all men" objectively have been justified unto eternal life in Christ, the last Adam. An infant cannot make the decision to "receive" Christ and therefore his/her objective position "in Christ" is given them without faith. Now, when they reach the age when they can understand spiritual things, then they must receive Christ to retain their justification. Hence justification by faith. If I had to guess JS would probably agree with my above position. Edited August 1, 2015 by Robert Quote
Samie Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Thanks, Robert. Recapping, JS: "Every baby is born subjectively in Adam (although objectively in Christ) and, therefore, under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death [Romans 3:9-20]. To continue to live under this reign is to end up with eternal death." Robert: "An infant cannot make the decision to "receive" Christ and therefore his/her objective position "in Christ" is given them without faith." From the above, it looks to me that JS's statements are leaning towards the position that a baby is born NOT written in the Book of Life. On the other hand, your statement appears to me as leaning towards the position that a baby is born in the Book of Life. Since JS is not in this forum and he cannot directly respond, I will just address my question to you: Did I understand you correctly that by your statement I quoted, you believe that a baby is born written in the Book of Life? Quote
Robert Posted August 1, 2015 Author Posted August 1, 2015 Did I understand you correctly that by your statement I quoted, you believe that a baby is born written in the Book of Life? Does God really need to keep books? Anyway, if He does, then "yes" babies are born written in the book of life. Quote
Samie Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Thanks, brother. I believe so, too. Back to JS's statement: JS: "Every baby is born subjectively in Adam (although objectively in Christ) and, therefore, under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death [Romans 3:9-20]. To continue to live under this reign is to end up with eternal death." Do you think JS believes as you do that babies are born written in the Book of Life? I want to be certain of your assessment of his statement I re-quoted above so I can be properly guided on how to deal with his other statements you posted. Quote
Robert Posted August 1, 2015 Author Posted August 1, 2015 Do you think JS believes as you do that babies are born written in the Book of Life? I want to be certain of your assessment of his statement I re-quoted above so I can be properly guided on how to deal with his other statements you posted. I haven't asked him....So I'm not sure of his position. Quote
Samie Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Please inform me what his position is once he tells you. But what is your assessment of his position based on his statement that "Every baby is born subjectively in Adam (although objectively in Christ) and, therefore, under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death [Romans 3:9-20]. To continue to live under this reign is to end up with eternal death."? Do you think he believes that babies are born written in the Book of Life? My own assessment of his statement is that JS believes babies are born NOT written in the Book of Life. Can you tell me your assessment of JS's statement? Quote
Robert Posted August 2, 2015 Author Posted August 2, 2015 My own assessment of his statement is that JS believes babies are born NOT written in the Book of Life. Can you tell me your assessment of JS's statement? I'll send Jack an email today. He's a busy retired Pastor, so it might be a month or two. Quote
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