The man of Romans 7

[Robert]

I'll send Jack an email today.  He's a busy retired Pastor, so it might be a month or two.

I just emailed Jack.  Here it is:

 

Pastor Jack,

 

What's your Biblical view on all infants who die before the age of accountability - are they safe "in Christ"? 

 

My position is "yes".  I use two main verses, although there's more to support my position: Romans 4:15 & Romans 5:18.  

 

I'm open to your interpretation.

 

Thanks,

 

Robert

 

PS: Hope you and your family are doing well.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Robert

[Samie]

Thanks for the effort, brother.

While awaiting his response, can you at least tell me your honest assessment of his statement? I won't force the issue if you say that you have no assessment yet of his position.

[Robert]

Thanks for the effort, brother.

While awaiting his response, can you at least tell me your honest assessment of his statement? I won't force the issue if you say that you have no assessment yet of his position.

Let's wait for him to write me back.  If I was a betting man (which I'm not), I would say Jack would agree with me. 

[Samie]

Granting that JS agrees with you, an answer which in my opinion is what you want, then I think he has a lot of explaining to do:

The statement "Every baby is born subjectively in Adam (although objectively in Christ) and, therefore, under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death"  is NOT compatible with the position that babies are born written in the Book of Life.

To have one's name in the Book of Life is to be heaven-bound. But one under the reign of sin, condemnation, and death could NOT possibly be heaven-bound. In fact JS said that "To continue to live under this reign is to end up with eternal death."  "To continue" simply means to proceed with what was started.  If continuing what was started ends up in eternal death, then what was started is already headed for eternal death.

[pnattmbtc]

I'm not sure the question is clear, as posed to JS.  You asked if infants are "safe in Christ".  I'm not sure "no" is a viable answer, regardless of what one thinks as to what the real question is, which is if every infant will be resurrected to eternal life.  No one is advocating the idea that some infants will be resurrected to be burned in the lake of fire, which is what NOT being "safe in Christ" could be interpreted to mean.  However, just because an infant is NOT resurrect to damnation, does not imply the infant *will* be resurrected to eternal life.

The question as to whether all infants will be resurrected to eternal life involves whether or not the parents have any influence on the eternal salvation of their children before the age of accountability.  I can't imagine that JS would agree with the idea that the parents have no impact on the salvation of their children before the age of accountability, however, I can imagine he would answer the question "yes", as it has been posed, without actually agreeing with your position.

[Samie]

Since to be saved or not seems to redound simply to being written in the Book of Life or not, and if salvation is by grace instead of works, then the writing of names in the Book of Life is purely all because of God's grace: ZERO human participation. 

I surmise the influence of parents upon children before the age of accountability cannot override God's grace He gave us in Christ before time began.

[Robert]

I agree with you. However, within Christianity there are four views:

 

1.  Since babies are born without sin they will be saved.

2.  Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism.

3.  Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability,

that will decide their eternal destiny. 

4.  The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents.

 

Jack

 

---

From: jacksministries@comcast.net
To: "Jack Sequeira" <jacksequeira@comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2015 8:14:58 AM
Subject: Fwd: infants & salvation********

 

****

 

Edited August 3, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Since to be saved or not seems to redound simply to being written in the Book of Life or not, and if salvation is by grace instead of works, then the writing of names in the Book of Life is purely all because of God's grace: ZERO human participation. 

This is what Calvinist's argue; well, sort of.  Not the first sentence.  The first sentence would read, "Since to be saved depends upon God's election ...", but the rest is the same logic.

The first sentence is putting the cart before the horse.  Being saved or not does not depend upon being written in the book of life, but being written in the book of life depends upon being saved.  You have this backwards.  The book of life simply records reality.  It is a record of reality; it doesn't create the reality. 

[pnattmbtc]

I agree with you. However, within Christianity there are four views:

 

1.  Since babies are born without sin they will be saved.

2.  Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism.

3.  Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability,

that will decide their eternal destiny. 

4.  The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents.

 

Jack

This says "Jack" at the bottom.  Is this a quote? 

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, if you look at http://www.jacksequeira.org/dyunit06.htm, especially the sections on "Genuine Faith" and "Saving Faith", this is making the same points I've been making.

It is true, in a sense, that "Christ is the gospel", but it is not true that you can equate the two.  The gospel is a theory, whereas Christ is an actual Being.  To "accept the gospel" is NOT the same thing as "accepting Christ", and the sections I've mentioned above make clear this distinction.

[pnattmbtc]

 Therefore our old life is no longer in control since it is crucified; but it is the resurrected life of Christ that dominates and controls us through the indwelling Spirit, and such a life will always be pleasing to God (Galatians 5:22-24) because it is the life of Christ (John 15:4-8).

Mystery quote. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Robert]

This says "Jack" at the bottom.  Is this a quote? 

Yes.  In fact, I'll do better.  See the following post:

Edited August 3, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

jacksministries@comcast.net

To

Robert Broyles

 

Today at 1:09 PM

I agree with you. However, within Christianity there are four views:

 

1.  Since babies are born without sin they will be saved.

2.  Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism.

3.  Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability,

that will decide their eternal destiny. 

4.  The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents.

 

Jack

 

---

From: jacksministries@comcast.net
To: "Jack Sequeira" <jacksequeira@comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2015 8:14:58 AM
Subject: Fwd: infants & salvation********

 

 

 

---

From: "Robert Broyles" <broyles.rh@att.net>
To: jacksministries@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 6:04:23 PM
Subject: infants & salvation

 

Pastor Jack,

 

What's your Biblical view on all infants who die before the age of accountability - are they safe "in Christ"? 

 

My position is "yes".  I use two main verse, although there's more to support my position: Romans 4:15 & Romans 5:18.  

 

I'm open to your interpretation.

 

Thanks,

 

Robert Broyles

 

PS: Hope you and your family are doing well.

 

 

 

Reply, Reply All or Forward | More

[pnattmbtc]

It is true that forgiveness is the most wonderful thing for us sinners, but glorious as it may be, forgiveness is still a negative thing, for it only takes care of our sins so that we are acquitted or counted not guilty. However justification by faith is both a negative as well as a positive truth; while it does include the forgiveness of all our sins, it goes beyond that, for it declares us positively righteous, and does change the heart. In justification, the very righteousness of Christ is put to our account so that we stand perfectly righteous before God now and in the judgment. This is the super-abundant gift of the gospel of Christ (Isa. 54:17; Acts 13:39; Romans 10:4).

Sad to say, the devil has deceived many into believing that justification by faith does not fully qualify them for heaven; that something else is required of us, that is to say, the keeping of the law or doing good works. As a result, a great majority of sincere Christians have been trapped into a subtle form of legalism and are therefore living in constant fear and insecurity; a condition that has robbed the church of power and the real joy of Christian service. which should be motivated by love. This was at the heart of the Galatian problem and which caused Paul to write that stern epistle. http://www.jacksequeira.org/dyunit06.htm

I wanted to comment on this, because I've noticed from Robert's writings that he has a concern that others have this "subtle form of legalism", and Robert may have gotten the idea here (since he's using the same words).

Note the following:
1.Justification by faith is both a negative as well as a positive truth
a.It includes forgiveness of all of our sins.
b.It declares us positively righteous.
c.It does change the heart.

Where Robert and I have been differing is in relation to item c, which I've been emphasizing (since this has been the point of our disagreement).  Note that, according to Sequeira, justification by faith "does change the heart."

Back to the subtle form of legalism.  The basis for this idea is not believing that justification by faith fully qualifies one for heaven.  Here is a statement which I have often quote, by Waggoner:

It will be seen, therefore, that there can be no higher state than that of justification. It does everything that God can do for a man short of making him immortal, which is done only at the resurrection. But this does not mean that, being justified; there is no more danger of the man falling into sin. No; “The just shall live by faith.” Faith and submission to God must be exercised continually, in order to retain the righteousness—in order to remain a doer of the law.

Note the similarity to what Sequeria writes later in the article:

This is the true significance of righteousness by faith. We will discover that active faith, thus understood and practiced, amounts to the same thing as “watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation” (Matthew 26:41), or, “men ought always to pray, and not to faint” (Lk. 18:1, 8), or “pray without ceasing” (1 Thessalonians 5:17). This is how we live by faith alone.
Consequently, it is not only by faith alone that we stand justified, but it is also by faith alone that we are sanctified, and the life of Christ we possess is manifested in us.

I note the theology I have been presenting agrees more closely with Sequeira than Robert's does!

In particular, I would like to emphasize Sequeira's emphasis on the motivating incluence of the cross, the power of agape.  As Sequeira brings out many times in his article, it is not the mental assent to certain facts which makes one a Christian, but a transformed life, the result of recognizing "the truth as it is in Jesus."

We are transformed by an actual Person, who lives, as our hearts our melted in appreciation for what He has done for us, and the cost of His sacrifice.  I see this emphasized time and again by Sequeira.

 

[pnattmbtc]

I know that some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, "How can little children have this test and trial?" I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians. The word of God came to the Israelites in bondage to gather their children into their houses and to mark the doorposts of their houses with blood from a lamb, slain.

This prefigured the slaying of the Son of God and the efficacy of His blood, which was shed for the salvation of the sinner. It was a sign that the household accepted Christ as the promised Redeemer. It was shielded from the destroyer's power. The parents evidenced their faith in implicitly obeying the directions given them, and the faith of the parents covered themselves and their children. They showed their faith in Jesus, the great Sacrifice, whose blood was prefigured in the slain lamb. The destroying angel passed over every house that had this mark upon it.

This is a symbol to show that the faith of the parents extends to their children and covers them from the destroying angel. God sent a word of comfort to the bereaved mothers of Bethlehem that the weeping Rachels should see their children coming from the land of the enemy. Christ took little children in His arms and blessed them and rebuked the disciples who would send away the mothers, saying, "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).

Christ blessed the children brought to Him by the faithful mothers. He will do this now if mothers will do their duty to their children and teach their children and educate them in obedience and submission. Then they will bear the test and will be obedient to the will of God, for parents stand in the place of God to their children. 3SM 313,314

Edited August 3, 2015 by pnattmbtc
paragraph breaks for readability

[pnattmbtc]

So then, the first thing we must know and realize about true faith is that it is our human response to the gospel which is always motivated by love or a deep heartfelt appreciation of Christ.

Amen! 

[pnattmbtc]

It is only as we surrender ourselves totally to Him who loved us and gave Himself for us that our lives can become well pleasing to God (John 15:1-8).

[Samie]

This is what Calvinist's argue; well, sort of.  Not the first sentence.  The first sentence would read, "Since to be saved depends upon God's election ...", but the rest is the same logic.

The first sentence is putting the cart before the horse.  Being saved or not does not depend upon being written in the book of life, but being written in the book of life depends upon being saved.  You have this backwards.  The book of life simply records reality.  It is a record of reality; it doesn't create the reality. 

It seemed to me that your position above sits well with salvation by works. You seem to believe that people are not saved unless they put in something in the basket first and then written in the Book of Life: Believe - Saved - Written.  So grace comes after man's belief.  This to me looks more like cart before the horse.

My position: First saved and written in the book of life, then man can believe and overcome evil with good otherwise they get blotted out at death.

 

[pnattmbtc]

It seemed to me that your position above sits well with salvation by works. You seem to believe that people are not saved unless they put in something in the basket first and then written in the Book of Life: Believe - Saved - Written.  So grace comes after man's belief.  This to me looks more like cart before the horse.

My position: First saved and written in the book of life, then man can believe and overcome evil with good otherwise they get blotted out at death.

 

My point it that the book of life is a record of reality.  It does not create reality.  Having the cart before the horse is in mixing this up.  My point is not dependent upon the process involved.  I.e., even if I believe as you do in terms of forensic justification, I still would not state it the way you are, because it would still be putting the cart before the horse.  The "cart before the horse" is viz a viz this theological idea in regards to justification by faith vs. that one, but in putting the record of reality before the reality.

To repeat myself, regardless of the process involved (salvation by faith, salvation by works), it doesn't matter, as to the point I'm making.  I'm saying the error is having the book of life the driving factor of salvation; it's not.  It's just a record.

I should add, it doesn't even matter what the subject is.  I mentioned "being saved", but the subject could be anything, and it wouldn't change my point.  The record of a thing is different than the thing itself.

Edited August 3, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

I do believe that Rev 20:15 and 21:27 speak realities:

NKJ Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

NKJ Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

[pnattmbtc]

Salvation can occur without the existence of a book of life.  Let's start with this.

[Robert]

It seemed to me that your position above sits well with salvation by works. You seem to believe that people are not saved unless they put in something in the basket first and then written in the Book of Life: Believe - Saved - Written. ....

I agree with your assessment. 

[Samie]

Salvation is God's work FOR man through Christ. The Book of Life is the record of who will make it to the new heaven and the new earth.  It simply records who were saved, are being saved, and who will ultimately be saved. The Book of Life did not save, does not save and will not save.

[LifeHiscost]

I do believe that Rev 20:15 and 21:27 speak realities:

 

NKJ Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

NKJ Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Not mention that there is no place in the scripture where one's name is put into the book of life, but only taken out, which leads me to believe we all have the same starting place as Adam and Eve and only lose our privilege when making decided irrevocable decisions to turn against the conviction of the Holy Spirit's voice that leads to the Water of Life, despite initially starting out with a weak carnal, worldly nature.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:...Romans 2
 

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.....Galatians 3
 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

 

 

 

[Robert]

 I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children

Jack stated some believe this way (see # 4).  The problem with this view is that parents can't exercise faith for another.  It also makes "faith" a co-Savior. 

Also, you are making Ellen White the final word.  She is not.  The Bible is and I've used it to prove my position.