Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 Why do you feel the need for sarcasm? This isn't helpful. Because you are being utterly disingenuous when you take things out of their context. Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) God gave the law to help us. And if we remain under the law? Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Why do you feel the need for sarcasm? This isn't helpful. Robert:Because you are being utterly disingenuous when you take things out of their context. In the first place, this is a gratuitous assertion, as you provide no evidence for your assertion, which, unfortunately, is all to common. Why would you *ever* do this? I don't understand this. If you disagree with someone, whether me or someone else, the very least you should do is to at least present some sort of evidence for your claim. In the second place, even if what you claim were true, it wouldn't excuse your own bad behavior. What is your point in these exchanges? Does it make you angry? If so, it might be better to stop. I appreciate your participation because it helps me think out my own positions, and prompts me to study out things I might not otherwise have done. However, I have no desire to be insulted. Remember the golden rule! And if I ever am mean or insulting to you, please point it out to me, and I'll change how I'm saying things. I hope we can proceed as friends who would be happy to meet each other if we saw each other in person. Like this Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 God gave the law to help us. Robert: And if we remain under the law? To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law. If we remain under the law, God will reveal His love shining from the cross to draw us back to Himself in repentance. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) ....Paul asks the question, "Is the law responsible for our death?" and answers his own question negatively, saying, "May it never be!" and argues that it is sin. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died... As a Pharisee (an unbeliever) Saul viewed himself as blameless before the law (see Phil 3:6), but when the 10th commandment exposed him as a sinner, he came under it's curse. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. Clearly the 10th commandment, if obeyed, brought life, but since his motives and thoughts were out of harmony with the law, Saul found this law to bring him death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me,and through the commandment put me to death. Saul's sin nature deceived him because he was ignorant concerning the spirit of the law through the 10th commandment. Hence "through the commandment" sin brought condemnation (i.e, put me to death) 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Who is the "we"? Believers. We believers know that the law is spiritual, that is, we aren't deceived as the self-righteous are. We know the law is more than just some rules to be kept outwardly. We know that the law and our sin nature are incompatible and therefore of ourselves we are slaves to our love of self. Romans 7:13 must be interpreted in the light of Gal 3:24-25, that is, "the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." So from this point of view, that is, the man of Romans 7 is converted, the law was his friend because it was used to drive him to Christ that he might be justified by faith. Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) So from this point of view, that is, the man of Romans 7 is converted, the law was his friend because it was used to drive him to Christ that he might be justified by faith. If the man of Romans 7 is unconverted then the law cannot be his friend. The law brings wrath and condemnation to those who persist in staying under it's jurisdiction. Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law. If we remain under the law, God will reveal His love shining from the cross to draw us back to Himself in repentance. Oh, I see....You are teaching yo-yo salvation. That is, every time we sin we go back under law..... Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law. The unbeliever is under the law. What if he remains under the condemnation of the law? Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) In the first place, this is a gratuitous assertion, as you provide no evidence for your assertion, which, unfortunately, is all to common. Why would you *ever* do this? I don't understand this. If you disagree with someone, whether me or someone else, the very least you should do is to at least present some sort of evidence for your claim. In the second place, even if what you claim were true, it wouldn't excuse your own bad behavior. What is your point in these exchanges? Does it make you angry? If so, it might be better to stop. I appreciate your participation because it helps me think out my own positions, and prompts me to study out things I might not otherwise have done. However, I have no desire to be insulted. Remember the golden rule! And if I ever am mean or insulting to you, please point it out to me, and I'll change how I'm saying things. I hope we can proceed as friends who would be happy to meet each other if we saw each other in person. Like this I have little patience with folks whom I perceive to be legalistic. It's a flaw of mine.....I'll try to do better. Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law. If we remain under the law, God will reveal His love shining from the cross to draw us back to Himself in repentance. Anyway, I hope you aren't presenting what I term "yo-yo" salvation. By that I mean ever time you sin, you come under the condemnation of the law. If you are teaching this we have a major, major problem. Before we continue we need to settle this.... Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) Anyway, I hope you aren't presenting what I term "yo-yo" salvation. By that I mean ever time you sin, you come under the condemnation of the law. If you are teaching this we have a major, major problem. Before we continue we need to settle this.... First of all the believer has accepted his corporate birth, life, death and resurrection in Jesus Christ. Hence he has been delivered from under the law. As far as the law is concerned the believer is dead, condemned by the law itself. So ever time you sin (and we all sin) the law can't touch you. Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) First of all the believer has accepted his corporate birth, life, death and resurrection in Jesus Christ. Hence he has been delivered from under the law. As far as the law is concerned the believer is dead, condemned by the law itself. So ever time you sin (and we all sin) the law can't touch you. However, if we practice known sin as a lifestyle, then eventually we can apostatize from Christ and that brings us back under the law. If we apostatize there's no coming back because we have hardened our hearts (minds) to where the Spirit of God cannot reach us. That's what Paul is discussing in Heb 6:4-6 How do I define a practiced, known sin? 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died... As a Pharisee (an unbeliever) Saul viewed himself as blameless before the law (see Phil 3:6), but when the 10th commandment exposed him as a sinner, he came under it's curse. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. Clearly the 10th commandment, if obeyed, brought life, but since his motives and thoughts were out of harmony with the law, Saul found this law to bring him death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me,and through the commandment put me to death. Saul's sin nature deceived him because he was ignorant concerning the spirit of the law through the 10th commandment. Hence "through the commandment" sin brought condemnation (i.e, put me to death) 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Who is the "we"? Believers. We believers know that the law is spiritual, that is, we aren't deceived as the self-righteous are. We know the law is more than just some rules to be kept outwardly. We know that the law and our sin nature are incompatible and therefore of ourselves we are slaves to our love of self. Romans 7:13 must be interpreted in the light of Gal 3:24-25, that is, "the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." So from this point of view, that is, the man of Romans 7 is converted, the law was his friend because it was used to drive him to Christ that he might be justified by faith. I'm not following this. Paul, before being converted, thought he had the righteousness the law required. The Holy Spirit convicted him of sin, by showing him that he wasn't keeping the law, in particular, the 10th commandment, which is one which cannot be kept externally. Paul saw his need for Christ and was converted. The law played a role in Paul's conversion by making clear to him his need for Christ. Paul asks the question if the law was responsible for his death. He says, "No way! It was sin!". So the problem is sin, which is disobedience, and it makes all the sense in the world that disobedience is a problem, but none at all that something which is "holy, just and good" should be the problem. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Me:So from this point of view, that is, the man of Romans 7 is converted, the law was his friend because it was used to drive him to Christ that he might be justified by faith. Robert: If the man of Romans 7 is unconverted then the law cannot be his friend. The law brings wrath and condemnation to those who persist in staying under it's jurisdiction. The law is the friend of both the converted and unconverted, by making clear what righteousness is, and ones need for Christ. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Oh, I see....You are teaching yo-yo salvation. That is, every time we sin we go back under law..... No, not at all, but a decent question to ask. First of all, there's the well known statement of the Spirit of Prophecy that it is the trend of the life which tells, not the occasional good deed or misdeed. I won't quote this, as I assume you're familiar with it. Secondly, I've explained how I see things, so whenever you try to reason how I would interpret a text, it should be with my mindset in mind. Similarly, I try to understand your frame of mind when I look at your responses. To be clear, what I have said is that I believe that God will take all to heaven who would be happy there. Given this is the case, could yo-yo salvation make sense to me? It couldn't, could it? How could one misdeed or good deed all of a sudden change whether or not if one would be happy in heaven or not? I don't see how it could, unless it were something monumental. Now a deliberate sin could be the start of such a negative course, if one persistently resisted the prompting of the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't seem to me that it would be so easy to change ones status of "would be happy in heaven" to "would not by happy in heaven", or vice verse, in general. To move from the "would not be happy in heaven" to the "would be happy in heaven" requires that one be born again. That, of course, *is* a drastic step. Once one has made that decision, to move to the other side would, it seems to me, require a persistent resistance to the Holy Spirit, and, given how God loves us, I don't believe God would make that easy for us. So no, I do not believe in "yo-yo" salvation. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Robert: The unbeliever is under the law. What if he remains under the condemnation of the law? He wouldn't be happy in heaven. He needs to be born again. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I have little patience with folks whom I perceive to be legalistic. It's a flaw of mine.....I'll try to do better. Thank you! I know internet conversations can by difficult. One always comes across more negative than one intends by nature of the medium. I second your intent. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Anyway, I hope you aren't presenting what I term "yo-yo" salvation. By that I mean ever time you sin, you come under the condemnation of the law. If you are teaching this we have a major, major problem. Before we continue we need to settle this.... I addressed this. I agree with you that the "yo-yo salvation" is very bad. I will add a comment here. Something I think is crucially important in our theology is what it says about God. This is a question I've been trying to get at with you. This is why I've been asking why God would make the law the way you are suggesting He did. I'm trying to get you to do two things: 1.Articulate what you think God did in how He made the law. 2.What does it say about God given He made the law in that way. Here's what I think: 1."God added the law because of transgressions". I believe what Waggoner wrote about this. Perhaps I'll quote this later, because Waggoner is so eloquent, but to state it super-briefly, God gave the law in a specific "loud" way to make clear what righteousness is, so that we would see our need for Christ. 2.What this says about God is that He loves us, and wants us to spend eternity with Him. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Robert: First of all the believer has accepted his corporate birth, life, death and resurrection in Jesus Christ. Hence he has been delivered from under the law. As far as the law is concerned the believer is dead, condemned by the law itself. So ever time you sin (and we all sin) the law can't touch you. I think you're starting from a false premise here. The problem is not the law, but sin. Sin is a problem because it leads us away from God, and apart from God, we're hopeless. A person needs Christ to be brought back to God. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 However, if we practice known sin as a lifestyle, then eventually we can apostatize from Christ and that brings us back under the law. If we apostatize there's no coming back because we have hardened our hearts (minds) to where the Spirit of God cannot reach us. That's what Paul is discussing in Heb 6:4-6 How do I define a practiced, known sin? 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. It looks like your considering only thinking one is without sin as the only way of practicing known sin? Was this your intent? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
LifeHiscost Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 That's your approach. Clearly the law condemns...it brings wrath, yet you twist the scriptures to state the opposite. IOW, it doesn't say what I think you should be saying so it is twisted since the context doesn't agree with my opinion of what it means. I'm hoping you know what convoluted thinking is. In case not, just to let you know why I disagree, simply put. con·vo·lut·ed ˈkänvəˌlo͞odəd/ adjective adjective: convoluted 1. (especially of an argument, story, or sentence) extremely complex and difficult to follow. "its convoluted narrative encompasses all manner of digressions" synonyms: complicated, complex, involved, elaborate, serpentine, labyrinthine, tortuous, tangled, Byzantine; Rube Goldberg; confused, confusing, bewildering, baffling "his convoluted answers did nothing to help his credibility" antonyms: straightforward 2. technical intricately folded, twisted, or coiled. "walnuts come in hard and convoluted shells" God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 59 minutes ago, Robert said: 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died... And since Revelation is a revelation of Jesus, what you have described above is our 'good' fortune in Heaven. 12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."....Revelation 14 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) I'm not following this. Paul, before being converted, thought he had the righteousness the law required. The Holy Spirit convicted him of sin, by showing him that he wasn't keeping the law, in particular, the 10th commandment, which is one which cannot be kept externally. Paul saw his need for Christ and was converted. The law played a role in Paul's conversion by making clear to him his need for Christ. Yes, so from this point of view the law aided his conversion, but if had rejected Christ then he would have remained under condemnation. Paul asks the question if the law was responsible for his death. He says, "No way! It was sin!". So the problem is sin, which is disobedience, and it makes all the sense in the world that disobedience is a problem, but none at all that something which is "holy, just and good" should be the problem. Sin is the problem and the law condemns sin. To remain under law is to remain under the curse. Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 The law is the friend of both the converted and unconverted, by making clear what righteousness is, and ones need for Christ. IF the law is the friend of the unconverted then does the unconverted need Christ? Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 He wouldn't be happy in heaven. He needs to be born again. But if he refuses doesn't he remain under law? Quote
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