Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) This has nothing to do with what Christ said. Christ was speaking of how we should love, specifically, that we should love our enemies. "Therefore be ye perfect as God is perfect" means, in context, "you should love your enemies, because this is how God loves." Okay, then here's what you should do: Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Let's narrow this down: 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.... But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.... But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Do you realize that if you lived for others interest, and not your own self-interest, that you would be penniless? Christ denied self; He lived not for Himself; there was no self-seeking or self-love in his life. The result living in a world under it's god? Poverty! If you don't believe me that here are the facts: Matt 19:21 “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Luke 9:57 As they were walking along, someone said to Jesus, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 But Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens to live in, and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place even to lay his head." To follow Christ is to live for others with no thoughts of self. This is loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Jesus doesn't say, "Be ye as perfect as God is," but "therefore be perfect, as God is perfect," in a specific context, which is love. Robert: "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Who is the "you"? The multitudes who were Jews raised with the idea that salvation came by obeying the law. How perfect are you to be? "As your heavenly Father is perfect". Simple enough. This is the same error I just pointed out. Jesus isn't saying "be as perfect as your heavenly Father is" but "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect," and, in context this simply means "love your enemies as your heavenly Father loves His enemies." It's all in what Jesus said: 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Only one part of what? Here's the quote: What part is missing here? I'm just repeating what Jesus said; not leaving anything out. Just take verses 43 to 47 as they read.... Robert:Yes, that's leaving other verses out like verses 17 to 42.... You're not making sense. I quoted verse 43 to 48 and you wrote, "No, that's only one part". I requoted it, and asked which part. Your answer here doesn't make sense. You could have just as well said, "You left out Genesis through Malachi". Edited July 17, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Okay, then here's what you should do: Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Let's narrow this down: 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.... But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Yes. Jesus also said not to cast pearls before swine. But you're correct, we should do what Jesus taught to the best of our ability. Not to be saved, but simply because Jesus taught it is reason enough. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Do you realize that if you lived for others interest, and not your own self-interest, that you would be penniless? You mean because Jesus was penniless? You don't think there is any person who ever lived who wasn't penniless who did God's will? The monks have the right idea is what you think? I don't think you're doing a good job interpreting Jesus' meaning here. We should be stewards of that which God has given us, and use our influence to benefit His cause as best we can, as in the parable of the talents. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Yes. Jesus also said not to cast pearls before swine. But you're correct, we should do what Jesus taught to the best of our ability. Not to be saved, but simply because Jesus taught it is reason enough. Then I take it you are homeless and in poverty because you live to solely for others and hence there's no self-interests in your life? Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) You don't think there is any person who ever lived who wasn't penniless who did God's will? "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24 Self-seeking is sin. Jesus came to be slave of all. He didn't come to indulge our nature. He came to fulfill the law of agape. We, on the other hand, are self-seeking. Yes we grow, but nevertheless we are not free of self-interests and self-seeking. Hence we are sinners. Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 Yes. Jesus also said not to cast pearls before swine. So that negates what He stated in Luke chapter 6? Sounds like you are justifying sin? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Yes. Jesus also said not to cast pearls before swine. But you're correct, we should do what Jesus taught to the best of our ability. Not to be saved, but simply because Jesus taught it is reason enough. Robert: Then I take it you are homeless and in poverty because you live to solely for others and hence there's no self-interests in your life? If I interpreted the text as you do, I should. You should do this if this is how you interpret the text. We should follow the teachings of Christ to the best of our ability. Do you disagree with this? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 You don't think there is any person who ever lived who wasn't penniless who did God's will? "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24 Amen! Self-seeking is sin. Jesus came to be slave of all. He didn't come to indulge our nature. He came to fulfill the law of agape. Not just for Himself. He came to improve our lot as well, that we might be "children of our heavenly Father", as He put it. We, on the other hand, are self-seeking. Yes we grow, but nevertheless we are not free of self-interests and self-seeking. Hence we are sinners. Jesus said the following: For whoever will save his life shall lose it: but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. Luke 9:24 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Yes. Jesus also said not to cast pearls before swine. Robert:So that negates what He stated in Luke chapter 6? Sounds like you are justifying sin? Is that what you think Jesus was doing? Could He have meant something else other than justifying sin? What do you think Jesus had in mind by His statement? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) If I interpreted the text as you do, I should. You should do this if this is how you interpret the text. We should follow the teachings of Christ to the best of our ability. Do you disagree with this? You are reacting like a Catholic Priest who takes a vow of poverty, but at the end of the day he has a roof over his head and food. Being poor doesn't make you righteous. Everything in this world is based on the love of self and self-seeking. If you live with no self-interests, in this world, you'll have nothing. Self-love is the reason you have things.... Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Is that what you think Jesus was doing? I'm not talking about Jesus...I'm referring to you! You negate what Jesus states in Luke chapter 6 with your pearl/swine statement. That's a cop out! Edited July 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 For whoever will save his life shall lose it: but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. Luke 9:24 Yes, I would rather die than renounce Christ. He alone is my righteousness. Quote
Robert Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I thought the law was our friend? Waggoner disagrees with you, pnattmbtc! The above was in response to a quote from Waggoner: "To be "under the law," as we have already seen, means to be condemned to death by the law as transgressors." Anyway, Pnattmbtc, you failed to respond to my question. Edited July 18, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 Let me take a moment here to let anyone viewing my debate with Pnattmbtc know that I am not against the law as a standard for Christians living under grace. But, it is not what saves. Our works of faith will be used in the investigative judgment to prove our faith, not our righteousness. Once Jesus proves our faith to "the accuser of the brethren" this gives Him the legal right to present us "in Himself" perfect and without blemish. Quote
Robert Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 Let me take a moment here to let anyone viewing my debate with Pnattmbtc know that I am not against the law as a standard for Christians living under grace. But, it is not what saves. Our works of faith will be used in the investigative judgment to prove our faith, not our righteousness. Once Jesus proves our faith to "the accuser of the brethren" this gives Him the legal right to present us "in Himself" perfect and without blemish. The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God. Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [P&K 588] Quote
Robert Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) This has nothing to do with what Christ said. Christ was speaking of how we should love, specifically, that we should love our enemies. "Therefore be ye perfect as God is perfect" means, in context, "you should love your enemies, because this is how God loves." Okay, so you should "agape" your enemies because God does. Is it agape if I cheat on my wife? No! So verses 27 & 28 apply also. Is it agape if I hate someone (even an enemy who just wiped out my family)? No! So verses 22 & 23 apply too. So all these verses apply to agape. In fact Paul, in Gal 5:4, states: "the entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love (agape) your neighbor as yourself.'" So anything outside of agape is sin. If we are to be perfect as God is perfect then there had better be no self-love. Is this, perfection, what Jesus is commanding? "Yes" if you think you can gain heaven by law. "No" if you understand that Jesus is trying to discourage the Jews, who were heavily influenced by the teachers of the law, from trying to gain heaven by "the works of the law". Edited July 18, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Matt 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Let's see what perfection means by examining Matt 19:16-21 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "*Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" Note the question: "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" This person wanted to do something good in order to obtain heaven. Doesn't that sound like salvation by works? 17 So He (Christ) said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Isn't Christ good? Yes, but this man addressed Christ not as the Son of God, but rather a "good teacher" (as in a teacher of the law). Christ response? "No one is good, but one, that is, God". In other words no human is good, holy and righteous. Only God is holy. But (i.e, to answer your question*) if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Why, after telling this man there's none good, did he give this man "the commandments" as a means to gain heaven? Edited July 18, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 You are reacting like a Catholic Priest who takes a vow of poverty,.... Correction, a Monk.... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 If I interpreted the text as you do, I should. You should do this if this is how you interpret the text. We should follow the teachings of Christ to the best of our ability. Do you disagree with this? Robert: You are reacting like a Catholic Priest who takes a vow of poverty, but at the end of the day he has a roof over his head and food. Being poor doesn't make you righteous. Everything in this world is based on the love of self and self-seeking. If you live with no self-interests, in this world, you'll have nothing. Self-love is the reason you have things.... I'm not reacting, you are. I pointed out that if you interpret the text in this way, you should act in a way which is consistent with how you think the text should be interpreted. And you didn't answer the question. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Is that what you think Jesus was doing? Robert: I'm not talking about Jesus...I'm referring to you! You negate what Jesus states in Luke chapter 6 with your pearl/swine statement. That's a cop out! ??? This makes no sense. Jesus did say what He said. It must mean something. What do you think it means? That's a fair question. You seem to think it's OK to take a verse, out of context, or a portion of a text, and then use that for some purpose, without taking into account either the context of the verse, or any of the rest of Scripture. Why would you think this is a valid approach? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 For whoever will save his life shall lose it: but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. Luke 9:24 Robert: Yes, I would rather die than renounce Christ. He alone is my righteousness. We agree on this. But is Christ your righteousness because you believe in some theological idea, or because you have made a decision in regards to an actual person? Would that decision be valid if you held a different theological idea? Would believing the theological idea be enough, without the decision? What does it mean to be born again? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I thought the law was our friend? Waggoner disagrees with you, pnattmbtc! Robert: The above was in response to a quote from Waggoner: "To be "under the law," as we have already seen, means to be condemned to death by the law as transgressors." Anyway, Pnattmbtc, you failed to respond to my question. What question? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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